Trekvs40k(again)

[sonofccn]

Prologue:First it was the Federation. Than the Klingons had thier fun. Even the Borg had a go, sort of. Now one Trek race clearly stands ready as the next one to be put up and measured. A race that is the logical choice with the advanced technology, tactical acumen, treachery and pointed ears...but I've decided to do a thread on the Dominion, inspired by a space battles thread, instead of the more deserving Romulans. Well sort of, read on.

Plot:During the events of Improbable Cause (DS9 season 3), just before TDIC, Q sneezes and the entire Gama Quadrent is transposed into 40k's galaxy centered on Tau Territory just before the Imperium would have encountered the Tau in the 41st millenium. The Tau , and any Ork worlds within thier territory, meanwhile are displaced to the Gamma quadrent. No one else was affected by this, any founders like Colonel Lovok who were not in the gamma quadrent when it was replaced remain in the Trek universe and may do whatever they belief is in thier best interest. All Necrons, Warp daemons,Eldars, Imperium humans etc remain in the 40k universe and were not carried over. The two scenarios are as follows:

Scenario #1: Can the Dominion survive in the shark infested waters of 40k even with nearly their full assets? Could they thrive?

Scenario #2: How do events play out in the Trek galaxy with the Tau, who while being one of the nicer races in 40k are highly aggressive and imperial by most Trek races standards, and Orks( They enjoy the 40k world, nuff said) in the Gamma quadrent?

[ILikeDeathNote]

Hehe, oh God I hate the WH40K fandom.


And that is the only thing worth saying about WH40K.

[sonofccn]

Hehe, oh God I hate the WH40K fandom.


And that is the only thing worth saying about WH40K.

If I may ask what prompted this response? No one else had posted in this thread and I would hardly consider myself a member of WH40k Fandom nor did I make any ludicrous claims to warrant amusement.

[sonofccn]

Estimating Dominion fleet strength and industrial ability

This will be my own feeble attempt to try and roughly gauge what in theory the Dominion could field. I would classify it at best "thinking out loud" and no doubt riddled with errors and logical mistakes. Okay enough with the babble and with the whole estimating thing. Due to the Dominion largely being unseen, we saw relatively little of their holdings during DS9 I'll attempt to gauge a rough bracket through examples of other races/organizations which are equal too or less than the Dominion.

1.The human rebels from the mirror universe
While from an alternate reality the example is still impressive enough and the rebels pathetic enough to warrant mention. We know in Shattered Mirror (DS9 obviously) Sisko is taken back to the mirror universe where a Defiant class starship is has been created at the mirror Terok Nor. The plans were stated to have been stolen O'Brien when he crossed over in the episode through the looking glass (DS9) in late 2371. At that time the rebels consisted of a rag-tag band struggling to even get a man on board the station. An actual assault on the station, simply to capture a human scientist and not to hold it for any length of time, in 2371 was dismissed as unlikely to succeed. Yet from late 2371 to mid 2372 the rebellion had managed to overtake the station, hold it and began construction on the Defiant replica with what at best could be described as limited resources and personal. Even assuming O'Brien launched and captured the station perfectly intact and functional with abundant resources to manufacture one of the more advanced warships in the Federation arsenal the moment Sisko left back to the Trekverse the most you could stretch this out would be 365 days to construct, assuming starting at the start of 2371 and ending with a complete warship at the end of 2372. When you consider that forces had to be built up to take the station, the damage inflicted in such an assault and simply moving the resources to the station needed to build the ship you could easily reduce the estimated construction time to half or a quarter and all this canonically from a bunch of rebels on the borderline losing end of a war. While projections upwards from such tiny source would be problematic at best it does imply that a dedicated Dominion shipyard should be able to churn out the mass equivalent of the Defiant on a yearly basis at least.

2. Cardassia's Obsidian order
In the Episode Defiant(DS9) Tom Riker leads the aformentioned vessel against a Cardasian system believed to be a military build up. During the course of the episode it is revealed that thier is such a buildup by the Obsidian order which even Gul Dukat wasn't aware of until the ships exited the system to attack the Defiant. While we were not privy to the actual system, it's shipyard(s) or actual number of ships we learned later in TDIC that the vessels were in fact meant for a first strike against the Dominion and the total Romulan and Cardasian were twenty warships. Assuming the two intelligence agencies split the ship count equally this means the Obsidian order built ten ships. While this is hardly an imposing force it was against Cardasian law for the Obsidian order, their gestapo equilivent, to build or operate such vessels and had to keep it's construction a secret from all but the select few possible in on the secret which considering the races involved and their paranoia was a short list. This in turn implies that while devoting enough resources to cripple both organizations with their destruction was not the grand sum of resources otherwise the respective governments may have "officially" noticed. We can also safely assume the Cardassian empire, a third rate power, would have a much, much larger rate. As to the production rate we can only guess as no mention that I am aware of concerns when this deal was formed. We could assume this was hatched in late 2370 or early 2371 with the offical reveal of the Dominion and it's military might which means in less than twelve months the entire operation was set up, built and carried out as TDIC (DS9) was not quite at the end of the season. If we assume the Obsidian order built for eleven solid months, the first spent setting up operation, we would have nearly a Keldon per month, .91 to be precise, comparable if superior to what the rebels did with the Defiant.
Conversely the plan may have been started back in Rules of Acquisition(DS9) when the Grand Nagus was aware of the Dominion existence, but nothing else, back in early 2370. This would give the the order nearly two full years to prepare and build through it seems slightly over kill for such an operation for two races with almost zero contact with the Gamma quadrant to go jumping after what could have been at that point ghost stories and rumors. However assuming this anyway we get five vessels per year or .42 ships per month for a clandestine secret police force.

Federation rebuilding after wolf three five nine.

We'll have the fleet back up in
less than a year...
(to Riker)
I... imagine you'll get your choice
of any Starfleet command, sir

The losses in question were 39 vessels lost at wolf three five nine. Now the initial problem is less than a year is an imprecise term since 364 days and 1 days can be truthfully described as that. For this purpuse I am making the arbitrary assumption that Commander Shelby meant 6+ months on the arbitrary assumption that she would have said something to the effect of "in half a year" "quarter of a year" etc had the time been less. From this we can estimate how many ships the Federation, at peace time and not gearing for war, can build. First we can assume it would take eleven months to replace the 39 vessels, the fleet being back up to pre-battle conditions, which would imply 3.5 ships per month, unknown what class, with a total year production of 42 vessels. That should be the low end of the statement in my opinion as I can't see going much farther. The upper hand, within my arbitrary assumptions, would be taking seven months which would be 5.5 per month for a total build of 66 starships.

The seventh fleet
We know the seventh fleet had 112 in early 2374 and lost all but 14. The fleet was rebuilt and fought in the Sybaron system also in 2374 and was at half strenght afterwards when it was sent to Tibor Nebula also in 2374. Reference Reckoning (DS9). If we assume that between the first and second known battles they were merely built up to half strength, implying zero losses in the second battle, would require 42 vessels. Since this was during a massive war the Federation was losing, with similar battle results as the seven fleet experienced, it is highly unlikely the federation devoted nearly their yearly output to a single fleet much less in a time vastly smaller than the full year used for the previous estimate. If we assume the fleet was rebuilt to full strength for the second battle and than made to soldier on with half strength after Sybaron would require over thirty more ships than my "high" estimate for the federation peace production rate and still have similar issues that a single fleet is likely to receive only a fraction of the Federation resources. We can estimate with some confidence that the Federation, on a war economy, can produce 66+ vessels per year. A high, but not unreasonable, assumption would be 98 ships per year as minimum.

The Dominion fleet
Like everything else we can only make rough guesses. We know only a fraction of the Dominion forces were present in the Alpha Quadrent and the exact numbers we can only estimate. Our chief tool would be the 30,000 for the Dominion-Breen-Cardasian fleet from Tacking on into the wind IIRC (DS9) which had rough parity with the RFK alliance. We can't know the exact division between the three races, on either side :), but I think it is not unreasonable to divide it evenly. In all likelihood Cardasia, shown to be outmatched by the Federation one on one roughly a decade or two ago and generally a minor power of the trio, would have the smaller weaker fleet rather than the all powerful Dominion. We should also remember this came late in the war after both sides, save for the breen and Romulans, had pounded each other and could easily have lost hundreds of vessels, maybe thousands which could not be part of the 30,000. In addition to this estimate we can't forget the two thousand vessels the Dominion were sending through the wormhole in Sacrifice of angels (DS9) which were "displaced". That brings us to 12,000 as minimum for the Dominion assuming they sent absolutely everything they had. Considering the Federation has roughly 10,000 vessels, control a mere fraction of the Alpha quadrent compared to the Dominion's entire Gamma, and consider the Dominion are very good at building ships quickly it is likely they had additional reserves in the Gamma quadrent through how many are unknown.

Final tally Dominion should have twelve thousand plus vessels at it's disposal from the start with an annual shipbuilding of at least 66+ and likely higher.

[The Dude]

Are we assuming that Hive Fleet Behemoth is going to make it's scheduled appearance?

[ILikeDeathNote]

Hehe, oh God I hate the WH40K fandom.


And that is the only thing worth saying about WH40K.

If I may ask what prompted this response? No one else had posted in this thread and I would hardly consider myself a member of WH40k Fandom nor did I make any ludicrous claims to warrant amusement.

Oh, it's by no means directed at you, I just hate the WH40K fandom. To me they really do represent just about the worst fandom out there - a bunch of malcontent Columbine Killer-wannabees who don't have the balls to even pick up an airsoft gun. Especially the ones who are all up in the Chaos Marines and stuff.

I've met a few good people in the fandom, I'll have to admit - unsurprisingly they tend to like the IoM side of things - but as far as I'm concerned Chaos fans are probably outright Satanists.

[The Dude]

Oh, it's by no means directed at you, I just hate the WH40K fandom. To me they really do represent just about the worst fandom out there - a bunch of malcontent Columbine Killer-wannabees who don't have the balls to even pick up an airsoft gun. Especially the ones who are all up in the Chaos Marines and stuff.

I've met a few good people in the fandom, I'll have to admit - unsurprisingly they tend to like the IoM side of things - but as far as I'm concerned Chaos fans are probably outright Satanists.

What? Do they sacrifice goats before a game or something?

[sonofccn]

Oh, it's by no means directed at you, I just hate the WH40K fandom.

Oh than I apologise.

Are we assuming that Hive Fleet Behemoth is going to make it's scheduled appearance?
Are we assuming that Hive Fleet Behemoth is going to make it's scheduled appearance?

Yes. All 40k events should proceed as normal or as normal as that universe ever gets.

[The Dude]

Mandatory Chaos corrupts the Jemmies and turns them into Khornite berserker's post.

All right with that out of the way, the scenario doesn't much favour the Dominion. They are fortunately shoved in where the Tau are now and the Imperium is still distracted by more important things but they are still woefully outnumbered and at a disadvantage industrially. They lack (apparently) any significantly psychic race which limits their ability to use the Warp, which on the other hand might save them from the more insane bits. ;)

Best bet? Use the Founders to infiltrate and steal whatever they can from the AdMech as well as sabotaging whatever they can until they can reverse engineer some of the better tech (Nova Cannons, Meltas, Lances, Virus Bombs, Plasma Reactors etc).

Edit: Or beg, borrow or steal their way into the Webway.

[sonofccn]

All right with that out of the way, the scenario doesn't much favour the Dominion. They are fortunately shoved in where the Tau are now and the Imperium is still distracted by more important things but they are still woefully outnumbered and at a disadvantage industrially.

Any refrences to Imperium shipbuilding rates would be greatly apreciated. I've done a little looking and so far the only thing with a definative time table I've found was the ship built over a feral world.

Best bet? Use the Founders to infiltrate and steal whatever they can from the AdMech as well as sabotaging whatever they can until they can reverse engineer some of the better tech (Nova Cannons, Meltas, Lances, Virus Bombs, Plasma Reactors etc).

Most of 40k advantage hails from thier appliaction and scale not from sheer technological prowess. The concept of a replicator would greatly aid the Imperium for instances, through they would likey just shove it into a bolter somehow. I think the Founders would do what they do best, destroy you from behind the scenes. If genestealer cults are a problem on fringe worlds imagine what a Founder could do?

[The Dude]

Any refrences to Imperium shipbuilding rates would be greatly apreciated. I've done a little looking and so far the only thing with a definative time table I've found was the ship built over a feral world.

I'll see what I can find, maybe there's something in BFG or in the upcoming Rogue Trader RPG. Though to be honest it isn't so much a factor as the size of the existing Navy fleets and how much can be re-tasked. Some of the novels hint at a million plus worlds (Eisenhorn IIRC) and Battlefleet Scarus obscuring Thracian Primaris.

Most of 40k advantage hails from thier appliaction and scale not from sheer technological prowess. The concept of a replicator would greatly aid the Imperium for instances, through they would likey just shove it into a bolter somehow.[/quote]

Actually I vaguely recall the the Imperium has something similar (nano tech) but it's outlawed.

I think the Founders would do what they do best, destroy you from behind the scenes. If genestealer cults are a problem on fringe worlds imagine what a Founder could do?

Well Genestealer cults are only seriously a problem because they attract a Hive Fleet once they reach a certain size. Otherwise they ferment rebellions which can be put down.

The Founders seem to work solo though, they might be able to be picked up by psykers but I don't think we've ever seen them used against them in Trek.

[Enosh]

I think the Founders would do what they do best, destroy you from behind the scenes. If genestealer cults are a problem on fringe worlds imagine what a Founder could do?

bother an Inquisitor for some weeks?
the imporant part in your quote being "fringe world" The IoM gains and looses those on a daily basis, they realy won't give too much shit if some random world in the middle of no where that has nothing important on or around it has a founder on it. Most probably a Arbiter will get involved, Inquisitors have bigger fish to fry

and there are no numbers or anything at all from what I remember on IoM industry, the only thing is the 12 years of the building of a cruiser, the thing is the IoM already has a big fleet (from 750.000 to some millions of warp capable military ships (depends on the calculations) unlike the federation which had at the start of the war some what? 10.000? Throw in on top of that the non warp military ships, and all the ships the rouge traders can spare for any eventual battle, atleast some 2k SM battle barges (each chapter has on average around 2 of them) along with all escorts and Inquisitior black ships and you have a quite big number of them

them there are forge world and big shipyards, lets assume for a moment that there are only 1 million IoM planets and the naval yards can produce only 1 ship per year (which is absurd), there are around 30k hive worlds in the IoM that's around 3%, lets assume there are the same number of forge worlds and only 1/4 of them actualy produces ships, that's still 7500 ships per year which blows your 66 ships per year compleatly utterly out of the watter and that's the bare minimus of calculations, despite us knowing that most worlds produce their own ships and that the idea of a major shipyards and forge worlds like Mars or Belis Corona only building 1 ship per year is retarded

and that's not even going into firepower calculations
the dominion will probably survive for the same reason the Tau did, the ioM will have other things to take care of first, but I don't see the dominion in this setting projecting any kind of power like the Tau can, since their orbital and groud capabilities are quite below those of the Tau, the best thing they can do is lay low and do nothing, maybe trade with the IoM/rogue traders

oh and in your scenario I feel sorry for the feds since they now have go up against the Tau
edit: holy shit orks too? what did the federation do to you? :(

[sonofccn]

bother an Inquisitor for some weeks?
the imporant part in your quote being "fringe world" The IoM gains and looses those on a daily basis, they realy won't give too much shit if some random world in the middle of no where that has nothing important on or around it has a founder on it.

Considering the average response time for the Inquisitor and how much trouble genestealers cause, who have to infilitrate the long hard way, I actually think we're talking much more than some weeks of bother. Every rebellious world will have to be dealt with at some point which drains, redirects and in general annoys the IOM. Which serves the Founders goals.

and there are no numbers or anything at all from what I remember on IoM industry, the only thing is the 12 years of the building of a cruiser, the thing is the IoM already has a big fleet

The thing is twelves years for a single cruiser isn't exactly stellar. I know thier ships are big but still.

the thing is the IoM already has a big fleet (from 750.000 to some millions of warp capable military ships (depends on the calculations)

I am aware the Iom fleet is large. What were the calcuations suggesting millions If I may ask?

unlike the federation which had at the start of the war some what? 10.000?

Yes ten thousand is roughly the strenght of the Federation fleet to the best of our estimates.

Throw in on top of that the non warp military ships

Uselss for any assault and of questionable value against faster than light attacking crafts.

atleast some 2k SM battle barges (each chapter has on average around 2 of them) along with all escorts and Inquisitior black ships and you have a quite big number of them

Yes very large and unfortanly most of it is dedicated to some war,battle or whatnot across the galaxy. It can only dedicate a fraction of it's strenght to any one target and would most likely take years if not decades to notice the Dominion.

them there are forge world and big shipyards, lets assume for a moment that there are only 1 million IoM planets

Since they only have a million worlds more or less that is a good assumption.

can produce only 1 ship per year (which is absurd), there are around 30k hive worlds in the IoM that's around 3%, lets assume there are the same number of forge worlds and only 1/4 of them actualy produces ships, that's still 7500 ships per year which blows your 66 ships per year compleatly utterly out of the watter and that's the bare minimus of calculations, despite us knowing that most worlds produce their own ships and that the idea of a major shipyards and forge worlds like Mars or Belis Corona only building 1 ship per year is retarded

You may laugh at my lowball estimate but I did try and refrence actual data from the fictional universe I was working with. So is 1 ship per year retarded because of evidence from 40k or do you simply believe it is nonsense.

and that's not even going into firepower calculations
the dominion will probably survive for the same reason the Tau did, the ioM will have other things to take care of first, but I don't see the dominion in this setting projecting any kind of power like the Tau can, since their orbital and groud capabilities are quite below those of the Tau, the best thing they can do is lay low and do nothing, maybe trade with the IoM/rogue traders

Orbital and ground capabilites can be compensated for with time, which you concur the Dominion has. As can industry. So in essence while the Dominion is expanding it's industry and mass producing it's quick clone soldiers, and increasing the size of thier vessels, the Iom has to deal with increased rebellions, sabatoge from within, and possible even more focused Ork attacks depending on how good the individual Founder is. If thier not stopped early on I see them becoming a worse threat than the Tau.

oh and in your scenario I feel sorry for the feds since they now have go up against the Tau
edit: holy shit orks too? what did the federation do to you? :(

I thought it would be interesting and I threw the Orks in for fun. All in All the Tau arn't that bad, they should only have a fraction of the fleet and worlds of the Iom. Thier also stuck in the Gamma quadrent with only a single wormhole uniting them. I'd wager the Federation-Klingon and hopefully Romulan force can hold thier own.

[ILikeDeathNote]

Oh, it's by no means directed at you, I just hate the WH40K fandom. To me they really do represent just about the worst fandom out there - a bunch of malcontent Columbine Killer-wannabees who don't have the balls to even pick up an airsoft gun. Especially the ones who are all up in the Chaos Marines and stuff.

I've met a few good people in the fandom, I'll have to admit - unsurprisingly they tend to like the IoM side of things - but as far as I'm concerned Chaos fans are probably outright Satanists.

What? Do they sacrifice goats before a game or something?

At this point I'm halfway inclined to seriously believe so.

Either way I'll quit taking this off-topic now :P

[The Dude]

Where is this twelve years to build a cruiser from?