I disagree with their assessment is all, and that's largely because of material disappearance.
Moving on:
either way is fine your one the ones who post rarely but who´s opinion I look forward too the most in my threads
Daww.. you're gonna make me blush in front of everyone... =^_^=
the problem is going to be the nials and thunderbolts Nials have a stealth field that´s no joke and slaughter more than their weight in enemy fighters usualy and SF´s tend to have better manuverability than I recall in the films
I´m not actually sure if G´quans field fighters honestly
Oh, pound for pound the Nials should be able to slaughter twice their number, the thunderbolts I agree should be no slouches either.
However I think the sheer overwhelming fighter opposition, which was determined using a very conservative figure, should allow for a substantial number of tie bombers to get through and to the weaker capital ships.
I seem to remember a G'quan launching a fighter in the show, but I can double check at my earliest convenience.
I think the fire power figure per HTL is prolly around there but higher I´m in the camp that puts SW closer to B5 than ST though a notch higher over all
So shall we agree 2 megatons then? I think 1.5 is more fair based on total firepower out put, although the fact that the battery does not represent a single gun, but instead several, the output is of course higher per grouping.
The figure is good for Minbari ships only and I´m assuming your ignoring the stealth field then again with the sheer amounts of guns an ISD has somethings gonna hit regardless no? it´s actually more generous than I´d give Sharlins they have very powerful guns but shitty armor I mean daayyum
While I will admit it'
s a primary figure for a minbari ship, we must also account that it only absorbed a fraction of the two megatons, and that this is a ship of the line.
However: I will be willing to give a slightly higher rating over all to the warlocks at the very least, they are 20 years ahead of the previous design, and the omegas rarely 'die' so much as they rapidly decompress all decks and flood the remaining with flames.
Still: The gaping hangers are massive weak points in many of these ships, and we've seen the effects of low speed ramming on several of these vessels. I wouldn't give their armor rating the highest in the world. I'll see about digging out some figures for the Omega/Omega Ram, the White Star Omega Ram, and the Omega Satellite Ram.
Most of the smaller ships are not known for being the best armored in the series (although the white stars are a reasonable exception, having taken hits from battlecrabs), we've seen the main firepower capability of a centuri warship against a small starfurry and the blow didn't kill the starfurry so much as it did a small bit of damage and then sent it on her way. It keeps in well with the rapid fire capabilities of the weapons and the 200 megawatt figure I think to rate certainly the older ships armor as being relatively inferior (the warlocks may prove more substantial than the others).
On a side note: The Bakari ships double as passenger liners, I don't t think they will play that important a role in the battle since they aren't purpose built warships.
As for the Victories: Their biggest advantage is the stated 80% energy absorption/deflection, something none of the other ships come close too... and while powerful and impressive, they still suffer from that 'dedicated forward firing arc' that everyone but the humans seem to enjoy so much (Hell, we see omegas have rear firing primary weapons even). In this battle that fire arc coverage that that star destroyers have is going to mean that the Omegas and Warlocks are going to really have to pick up the slack taking the brunt of the fire... and if we presume more than just the HTLs are firing we will be seeing substantially more casualties amongst most of the other ships, save for the victories and the white stars.
I always found it ironic that the humans were the race that chose to focus on having dedicated 360 degree firing arcs (and even main weapons mounted to the rear). The shadows demonstrate pretty effectively that attacking from other angles or in new and unusual fire arcs was pretty devastating to the bulk of the younger races (to say nothing of their amazing accuracy compared to everyone else).
Beyond that I can agree with the bulk of your ship assessments... I just question if the 30 bricks and the 6 super bricks are going to hold up as well to the dozens of turbolasers per star destroyer and the super laser long enough to protect the rest of the fleet. It doesn't help that they won't have initial fighter superior due to the numbers involved, allowing the bombers to get through, to say nothing of the superior fighter acceleration witnessed in starwars which will allow them to escape imminent death, as well as dictate a heavy segment of the engagement against capital ships, rather than in the no mans land between them.
I agree that the swiftness of the white stars and the sunhawks will be an issue, but the sunhawks biggest contribution is a dedicated heavy long term combatant fighter craft, and the sunhawks may be better suited to providing cover against the fighter attacks.
The White Stars, however, can not afford to not be involved in active battle, especially against the SSD, which must be dealt with quickly, it's bigger with babylon five with hundreds of more weapons, and dedicated sectional shields. Even if all the victories shot at her I doubt it'd be enough to bring her down in the first volley, and that's a full minute of no victory assisting. I actually think the victories would be better suited to busting the shields of the star destroyers, six for the first volley, which will give a substantial early gain to the warlocks and omegas... and if they are lucky they'll blast a few fighter squads in the process.
they have other weapons? i wasn´t aware of anything beyond missiles and various caliber TLs in the films-tv shows
They also sport Ion Cannons to disable enemy ships.
I can´t say one way or the other for sure but every one likes to use the blackstar as an example but even within universe we´ve seen far better and its a known fact that Minbari guns are devastating their range is obscene and their stealth field saves them
The large issue is we only have a few other major statements, including that the victories main gun can pretty much one shot any of those older ships. We've seen battlecrabs cut through with relative ease on most of the younger ships, which gives us an important look at the thickness of their armor, and we know that the innards of those launch bays are very weak.
A friend of mine actually put it very well: The hard thing in babylon five is hitting a target, not damaging it. Once you can focus continual fire pretty much any ship in that verse goes down, because they all don't have perfect full armor coverage (well, save for the victories, which are just insane with 80% total energy deflection). It's less about the fact that they can take those hits and more about the consequences of doing so. We have numerous cases of reactors going critical, life support systems failing, and entire ships rendered incapable in less than five-ten minutes of battle and being forced to ram.
When they start to deal with the heavy fire that those star destroys are going to be churning out, and the fact that lucky shots with HTLs are mission kills to the weaker armored ships (and I'm actually watching a video right now. I'll actually say 2-4 HTL hits for those omegas and warlocks, the white star ramming isn't as devastating as I remembered, and more importantly they can turn to keep their armor facing). To sum it up: One of the reasons the shadows were so effective (and the white stars) was because they weren't just fast, they were accurate to boot.
Other universes that demonstrate reasonable decent range accuracy (ANH star destroyer chase scene) will be able to devastate their target, and the bulk of TLs may very well make up for some of the poor marksmanship. This is to say nothing for the extreme accuracy of the death star (who should be focused primarily on the victories the entire fight).
I´d think four on one odds for the minbari with it likely being a double take down against an ISD victories being either one on one or two on one Warlocks in backs of four omegas the same and´G´quans likely requiring back up from other ships to survive long enough to get their guns kicking in but with same some whitestars or sunhawks as back or something
I'll give you four on one odds for the sharlins against a SD due to the stealth field.
One on One for the warlocks may be a bit generous, but we have limited data on the warlocks due to their short lived existence in the series (and I don't feel like digging up the books) so considering it's an upgraded designed I'll give it one - one odds.
Omegas at four - 1 I'll give.
G'quans I'm gonna say 6-1 due to poor firing arcs and no stealth field.
I still think those sun hawks are gonna be much more important on fighter defense than attacking main stream ships, same for the Bakari... protecting those victories is the key to winning the battle after all.
for the SSD it´d have give good odds on two vics three warlocks and back up from all the remaining lighter assets
The largest problem with this abasement is that the victories still will have to use their main guns to do enough damage to both the shields and the hull... and they are going to loose a victory in the opening seconds of the battle. The SSD is deadly to be sure, and it needs to be focused upon but those main cannons can do a lot more damage as shield busting weapons.
Furthermore: I'm gonna say you're not gonna want the slower ships to deal with the SSD, white stars and fighter craft need to really focus on her. Were talking 2000 HTLs, 2000 MTLS, 250 Ion cannons, 500 point defense weapons 250 missile batteries, and 40 tractor beams... Anything that gets close to her and can't move isn't going to last more than a few mere seconds.
that´s wow so you think they have good odds on taking down the shield damn
Absolutely. Only the narns were shown to be truly incompetent in ground combat (literally charging into the guns), and those weren't, we can presume, dedicated ground combat forces, but rather whoever G'kar rounded up... the short of it is that armor is gonna be murder on the empires 'most elite' forces.
Moving forward a bit:
If we presume the total destruction of the imperial forces is the goal then the running charge made into the star destroyers must be made, we can also presume the star destroyers, knowing of the impending battle, are going to move away from 'trap' and more into 'defense,' position their own lines between the death star and the incoming forces as best they can.
The Imperial fighters hold a massive acceleration advantage (although its the only advantage they hold) and should be kept first as rapid response to the engaging alliance fleet.
The alliance fleet will concentrate it's jumps like most B5 forces, to several ships per jump point. They should be jumping beyond the initial range of the star destroyers, giving them time to form up and launch fighters. For simplicity sake the death star holds fire until it knows which ships (the victories) to target.
The total elimination of the death star requires the fighters to make it not just past the star destroyers but also past the ties and then the death star defenses. This is going to require ship support to keep the SDs off of their fighters, furthermore the death star is going to force a close range engagement just as it did in ROTJ.
To this end the Warlocks, Omegas, and G'quans must engage the star destroyers. The Sharlins and the White stars should focus their strengths are moving towards the death star or focusing fire on the SSD, one or the other.
If the fighters are supported they can then attempt the attack run on the death star, but they will be at a disadvantage. Babylon Five fighters do not do the crazy moves shown in the death star tunnels and those tie fighters did... meanwhile the large number of bombers is still going to require a considerable force to run cover against (using the Bakari and the Sunhawks for cover will mitigate this to some extent).
If the Victories are used to shield bust 6 ISDs at the start this will give considerable advantage, rather than focusing their fire on a less functional target (such as the SSD or the Death Star). The Shield systems are going to give incredible staying power against the enemy vessels. We've seen the younger races deal with dedicated shielded aliens (third space) in which the exchange was costing them white stars against the fighters (much less the enemy capital ships). If we deduce only a minor armor advantage (and I'd be more wiling to give a considerable advantage) to the SW forces those shields will give them the staying power to win against numerous enemy vessels.
Using that staggered style of strategy to support the fighter attack on the death star should prove to be their most effective gambit.
Theoretically, of course, this presumes they can even attack the imperial fleet or the death star at the beginning of the battle. If I was vadar I would move the fleet behind the shield as soon as I knew the rebels weren't coming. While I do give a victory on the ground to the B5 forces, said forces will still have to actually conduct their ground operations. Since the endor ground forces seem to be taken a bit by surprise this time around I'm gonna say the shield goes down in half as much time as originally.
Finally: Battle meditation from the Emperor is going to be a considerable factor.
My opinion still is the final result is a relatively decided victory for the empire in the sky, subsequently ruined entirely when IG-88 blows up the imperial battlefleet and then Endor for good measure. ^_^ (heh, expanded universe is crazy sometimes).
However: I'll give it a closer out come. I'll presume 50-60% casualties for the Empire, rather than my original opinion, which was closer to 30-40%. I still think the alliance forces will be forced into retreat before the battle is over, rather than loose all six victories. The Empire, of course, has no choice but to fight to the last. If the Alliance forces can't topple the imperial fleet when they've taken about 50% casualties... they will scrap the operation.
So to summarize:
Ground forces on endor are taken by surprise, a defense is established, vadar is notified.
Vadar moves the fleet behind the shield and prepares for the attack.
Alliance forces jump in. Vadars fleet positions themselves between the death star proper and them.
Fighters and ships advance, hoping the shields will be down.
Victories and other ships enter range and open fire, failing to damage in the first wave due to the shield. Victories fire their main cannons to no effect against the shield.
Death star returns fire against a victory.
Franklin reports that he is almost done with the battle, he needs only enough time to blow the generator.
Ships prepare for attack, shield generator falls.
Death star fires its second shot. A group of ships shielding the Victories (lets say two sun hawks and a Bakiri) bite it.
Five victories open fire, warlocks and omegas charge forward. Sharlins and White Stars attempt to flank the fleet. White Stars break off to support a fighter attack on the SSD.
The star destroyers struck by the victories are downed in short order. However, the full minute recharge gives the remaining 26 star destroyers ample time to open fire on the fleet. Distances are closed on both sides to better support fighter operations. The Alliance fleet closes to help protect against the death star.
The G'quans suffer heavy losses, omegas and warlocks suffer light losses. Tie bombers break through the fighter screens by weight of numbers. Interceptors pull back to defend the death star against attack.
The first run on the death star begins. Starfurries remain behind to hinder the SSD, The Nials and Thunderbolts attempt to make it to the target destination.
First wave is stopped with heavy sacrifices from the tie interceptors.
First Sharlins break through to support operations against the death star. Second fighter attack is launched, thunderbolts decide to cover the Nials, who are more maneuverable.
Death star has attacked several more times, victories have attacked several more times.
Death Star may or may not die in the attack. Tie fighters will be too busy assisting the executor. Emperor evacuates the death star to be safe.
Going from this: I think the best outcome the Alliance can hope for is to inflict 50% casualties to the Imperial forces, with a good possibility of destroying the death star if they are willing to sacrifice the ships to do so.
However: i think the casualties inflicted will make it a less substantial victory. Forces will be forced to retreat, pick up ground troops, and jump to safety.
Battle we could presume a battle length between 15-30 minutes, depending on just how much in the way of losses the Alliance is willing to take. 40% losses is an extreme number of people killed... loosing on average three victories may be unacceptable.
Further analysis can not be done till I know the degree of dedication to the attack. If they are very dedicated (IE: All or nothing) They may just ram the SSD to death, which will turn the battle in their favor if they still have the bulk of the victories remaining. If we presume they operate like most militaries, high end KIA figures won't be good, not to mention the resources lost.
though to be fair, they'd most likely be walking away with nearly no casualties on the ground, with nearly the entire storm trooper garrison either killed or in hiding (presuming no vadar on the ground, and instead on the Executor).
That was a bit more long winded then I wanted and not as concise as I had hoped, but I had an Osama Party last night so forgive me, kinda tired. ^_^
