Starfleet Jedi

I honestly don't know much about 40K but I have been checking on the IOM wikia and I have been wondering this of who would win?

Scenario: The Goa'uld find a portal near the center of the galaxy that leads to the 40Kverse. They then send a fleet in and find out that the galaxy is ruled by a powerful human race called the IOM. Seeing how they are powerful they decide to launch a invasion upon them in case they find the portal that could lead back to the Goa'uld Galaxy and maybe conquer it. How will this fight end up?'
Also
All System Lords are united during this time
This takes place during the time of Ra and maybe Anubis with his upgraded stuff might be involved later
Earth may or may not interfere with the Goa'uld.

The IoM may be corrupt and degerate, but they are still a major force to be reckoned with with their sheer numbers and they are highly organized. They also still possess enough weird technologies that they can roll the Goa'uld with, who while possessing some interesting tech, is still very much given towards personel in-fighting among the System Lords and general disorganization. Not to mention, the IoM has demonstrated they can hold out against far worse things, like the Orks, Tyranids, and Eldar.

If that isn't enough, you must hate the Goa'uld a lot since I doubt blog-standard Jafar could do much to Space Marines with their melta guns, bolters, and armored vehicles.
-Mike

Civ001 wrote:I honestly don't know much about 40K but I have been checking on the IOM wikia and I have been wondering this of who would win?

Scenario: The Goa'uld find a portal near the center of the galaxy that leads to the 40Kverse. They then send a fleet in and find out that the galaxy is ruled by a powerful human race called the IOM. Seeing how they are powerful they decide to launch a invasion upon them in case they find the portal that could lead back to the Goa'uld Galaxy and maybe conquer it. How will this fight end up?'
Also
All System Lords are united during this time
This takes place during the time of Ra and maybe Anubis with his upgraded stuff might be involved later
Earth may or may not interfere with the Goa'uld.

The Goa'uld have faster and a much more stable FTL drive technology, but they'll need to get intel first. They certainly risk running into big nasty things.
Their advantage is that they use human hosts and modified humans (Jaffa) who were not fiddled with by the oldest beings of WH40K. So, as usual, they're all pariahs and sufficiently isolated from the warp and chaotic influence.
They'd certainly be interested into obtaining some technology. It all depends who they meet and what they can observe and then survive from any encounter to devise a plan for each region of space. If they know about Tau'ri, they'd try to see what's its equivalent in 40K and see that it's gone. The whole system. They'd be rather puzzled and most certainly interested. If they'd start to believe that technology was responsible of that, they'd be really tempted to find it, although they wouldn't know that it's largely a begone knowledge.

I wouldn't be too worried about the IoM getting into the SG variant of the Milky Way. They'd be totally isolated here, and completely cut from the Warp and their Astronomican. They'd be reduced to sluggish speeds ... a couple light years per jump and such jumps taking a while to achieve.

The Goa'uld don't need to face IoM forces directly.
We see that it's rather easy to destabilize entire sectors by destroying the agriworlds, and quite obviously, sooner or later, they'll manage to capture someone or something of importance, like the knowledge of the position of Terra.

The Goa'uld, especially when unified, would have a good many ways to hurt Terra badly without the IoM capable of doing anything. From the cloaked ships filled with bombs or nanovirii to the FTL drives which can allow the transport of multi-km long huge asteroids, there's quite a lot of things which they can do. They could even use two gates to do some black hole trick on Sol for example.

There's also a good many primitive worlds which they'd love to rule over.

The real problem here, as always, is if the Necrons are going to keep an eye on those new guys and their rather equilibrium breaking FTL tech.

If the Necrons are out of the party, I actually believe that it wouldn't be too hard for the Goa'uld, with precise assaults, to weaken whole regions of the Imperium, up to the point of forcing IoM forces to split up and therefore prove insufficient to keep other aliens at bay.

Mike DiCenso wrote:The IoM may be corrupt and degerate, but they are still a major force to be reckoned with with their sheer numbers and they are highly organized. They also still possess enough weird technologies that they can roll the Goa'uld with, who while possessing some interesting tech, is still very much given towards personel in-fighting among the System Lords and general disorganization. Not to mention, the IoM has demonstrated they can hold out against far worse things, like the Orks, Tyranids, and Eldar.

Depends on which numbers we go with. In sheer firepower, outside of 40K wank, the Goa'uld really shine, although their numbers literally pale. But small flotilla would, pound for pound, roll over IoM forces as long as they'd engage them by cutting the massive range advantage IoM ships have.

If that isn't enough, you must hate the Goa'uld a lot since I doubt blog-standard Jafar could do much to Space Marines with their melta guns, bolters, and armored vehicles.
-Mike

"blog-standard Jafar " ? :D

Ok, well on the ground it's no surprise, the Jaffa aren't fit for the task. They're peacekeepers using impressive tech to contain primitive societies.

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GeneralScrage wrote:

Vlad III wrote: You know that the Goa'uld have actual cloaking tech, right?

Do these cloaks prevent them from being mind raped by Imperium Psykers once they detect the odd brain pattern of the Goa'uld? Also are you actually suggesting that they can sneak off a heavily guarded Primarch?! I like SG but this...this is ridiculous.

The Gateverse humans have no connection to the Warp. They seem to have, at best, a connection to what one could consider very remotely similar to a part of what defines the Warp, and that thing would be one of the higher planes of existence, which can be used to sap belief and grow power from there by ascended beings. It is not inhabited by wild creatures or else, even less a place used by any technology from the most advanced beings to go from one place to another at FTL with their space ships.
For all intents and purposes, the Warp is just a dimension of raw energy that sticks out of time and space in some fashion. It is not a realm like the higher planes of existence where one can unlock the secrets of the universe, literally.

Now, technological cloaking is totally irrelevant to mindrape. It's only relevant to a tactical scale.

The best thing the Goa'uld can do, by nature of being disconnected from the Warp, is to use this advantage of make perfect killers, saboteurs and even better troops.
With the Goa'uld really devoted to the task of defeating the IoM so they wouldn't use the portal, somehow, then they won't do what they did in other times, that is, not bother with a force that is isolated and troublesome to shake up, like some massive wasp nest.
If they want to wage a war, they'll have to weaken the enemy first, since the Goa'uld aren't a massive power to begin with.
Fortunately enough, it doesn't take much time to know what is crucial to the IoM. That crucial point is the destruction of Terra, the Astronomican and eventually the throne of the God Emperor (regardless of consequences extrapolated by hammies).
Insistence via the use of planet wrecking asteroids and other bombs would do it. Their delivery is the obvious problem. And not having access to hyperdrives because of no subspace would screw plans.

This is a very central part of vs debates, those physics laws and what comprises each universe.
See, if a form of Warp exists in SGverse, there's still no evidence that it's providing fast speeds. If ships in Warhammer use currents to get somewhere faster, a calm Warp is of no interest at all.

There's no evidence that it has created any monster whatsoever, and that even before the Ancients could actually ascend to eventually control the daemons or else.
There's also the problem that the Astronomican's range with be both hindered by the portal's aperture and the fact that a large part of the Astromican's light has been "consumed" in 40Kverse. The Gateverse Milky Way would only receive a small quantity of it, and thus far, no one in the SBC thread has proved that the relays and other beacons are particularly that efficient, especially considering that the Astronomican's psychic power is propagated by he God Emperor who consumes a hundred psykers a day.
A beacon is obviously not going to achieve that.

Then, you can add up all the effects due to the creatures of Stargate having no identified connection to what would pass as the Warp. Which means that basically, the whole galaxy is a breeding ground for blank sentient beings and non sentient beings.
Guess what will happen when being attuned to the Warp will get there? Well, if you don't know, read what I wrote above. Needless to say that wage a war in such conditions will simply be impossible.

On the other hand, you have subspace. If we assume that it's present in 40K's Milky Way like Warp is present in Stargate's universe, then we have the Goa'uld who can pull all FTL tricks they have access to without giving a flying crap about in-system limitations and Warp currents and monstrosities.
They can, for all intents and purposes, pick Ork spores for example and land them on plenty of high profile IoM worlds without the IoM being able to do anything about it.

They can use FTL drives to carry massive asteroids and, without the Asgards bothering them, focus on Terra and smash them into said planet. They cal also use stargates, which wormholes go through subspace, to repeat some of the tricks seen in Stargate.
An Al'kesh, for example, is large enough to house a stargate. An overloading stargate will easily provide a multi-gigaton blast. You surely could find a sweet spot somewhere on Terra to land your cloaked ship there, and eventually add half a tonne of naqahdah to make sure you get a big boom.
The Astronomican Chamber is so exposed I can only be sorry for the Imperium of Man.
They don't even need to bother with the rest of Terra. Even if the IoM rebuilds one, the mere fact of having lost the light for some time, notably for ships already in transit, will cause great trouble to the whole empire.
It will, however, stop acting as a bait for the entire Tyraniddom. Which may be a good or bad thing, depending on what the Tyranids do next: do they decide to fuse as one fleet anyway, but somewhere else, or keep going for the last sensed origin on the Astronomican's light, or do they spread?

In a way, the hammies do not want Warp to exist in Stargate. They gain little while the advantage Stargate forces have is massive.
It doesn't matter if the God Emperor can stop time in the Sol system or create a vast Warp storm, as stopping time will apply to all creatures in the system, and he won't be able to sense blanks by using their non-existent Warp signature. There is simply nothing he could do to avoid a ship from FTLing out on top of the Himalayas and blasting the whole Astronomican.
Besides, the GEoM isn't infallible either. Rinse and repeat in case it didn't work first.




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AceRaptor wrote:

Ucalegon wrote: Do not argue what you don't know. The Gao'uld can built sarcophogi, which are devices capable of bringing the dead back to life.

A device that is a vastly inferior copy of the original Ancient tech. The goauld did not make it from scratch, like with most of their tech the Goauld made monkey copies of Ancient tech.

The sarcophagus is certainly not vastly inferior. It actually is superior. The original Resurrection Cube (or Ancient Healing Device), the only healing device we know that is of ancient origin in SG-1 and ever achieved anything remotely similar, would indeed heal bodies, but individuals who would be revived were turned into half conscious zombies of some kind, and with mobility not as good as it originally was.
For all intents and purposes, in comparison, the sarcophagus is perfect. Only excessive use generates some negative effects on the personality of the user, which is quite a minor price to pay in a savage world. It certainly does not dumb someone down.

The problem with the sarcophagus is actually squeezing a Primarch inside. :)
But they could build a larger one after all.

Besides, even the hand dealing device is capable of healing someone who got near-fatally wounded. Carter managed to heal Cronus that way after he got almost killed by Niirti. In fact, he was in such a bad state that even with his symbiote, he'd have died without the help from the device.

But that's for the healing part. The act of actually getting to Maccrage and stealing the corpse out of its stasis field in the temple is something else.
It's not that the Goa'uld couldn't harness the technology that would allow them to get into the temple, but that it's certainly going to require massive fighting, and the Goa'uld don't have any decent army of that caliber.
The Goa'uld don't possess pod-less beaming tech, and the only thing they have for that either is a Tel'tac or an Al'kesh. Both are cloak and FTL capable, but only the later is armoured and armed.
That said, with what was done to Teal'c's own Al'kesh in Continuum, decent shields can be strapped to such a bomber. It could really help getting close, but I don't see what they could do after that without the Goa'uld really preparing the assault and breaking the door of the Cave of a Thousand Treasures (:P) to use tech they normally don't use.
They'd have to build something along the lines of what's described here, minus all the tech they simply don't have.

That said, with the ability to hyperspace out into an atmosphere, or at least on top of it, although a bit risky, they would easily bypass most of the system's defenses and force the battle to the ground. The arrival of thousands upon thousands of blanks would certainly be a massive problem to all humans and psykers, casting fear and disarray into their ranks, nullifying psychic powers.
If they kept several transport ships with their cloaks up around the target, the IoM forces would never get a decent chance to free themselves from the effects cast by blanks.

Lets see. The Goauld cant take a primarch as a host? Since you know, they are god damned primarchs? And I doubt a Goauld can even pierce a primarch's skin.

Symbiotes can also penetrate from the mouth. Are tissues tougher inside?
Anyway, skin can be cut by laser or a blade. Heck, I wonder if the Goa'uld have access to a device that's similar to the one used by the Tok'ra in Continuum: it planted a syringe into Ba'al's forehead, and then beamed out the symbiote into a vial.
That said, the whole movie was a massive contradiction of former facts, namely that it suddenly decided that hosts lived in human brains and made holes there (!), instead of wrapping themselves around the top section of the spine.
These writers can't even know their basic canon. Idiots. No wonder that franchise ran into a wall.

And the poison is partially warp based. A symbiote isnt going to cure it even if it managed to get into the primarch.

So it can be partially cured. It doesn't really matter if the Primarch remains in the sarcophagus most of the time. What matters is his knowledge and studying him.

And even if a Goauld gets in primarchs are psykers. Theres no reason why he cant just fry them while they are inside him.

To fry a blank, the Psyker would have to direct energy into his own body while trying to target a blank creature.
We know that a blank creature living inside a Psyker's head is going to neuter the Primarch's powers, which isn't such a big loss. The point isn't to send the Primarch to a battlefield after all.

Besides, if the presence of a blank individual is enough to repulse Warp energy, as described in the Codex Assassins, for the Culexus' Animus Speculum device, then the Warp part of the poison would most likely be totally neutered.
So, in theory, implanting a symbiote into a Primarch will actually do wonders and be a massive gain for the Goa'uld. They will not be able to exploit its psionic powers, but it will be able to get access to knowledge and DNA.
Fine.
Very fine.

Besides, as pointed out by Vlad III, although Adria has never approached the power level of a Primarch, we know that she was unable to expel the symbiote Ba'al had implanted into her body and took control of her.

And any Goauld would be detected by psykers. Which will immediately fry them, maybe after mindraping them.

Goa'uld wouldn't be detected if someone looked for them by looking at a Warp signature/presence. The symbiotes are just as blank as the human hosts, or, as a matter of fact, any creature from any other universe that hasn't grown alongside the Warp and got created/modified by Old Ones to obtain latent psychic abilities, like 40K humans.
They would be detected because of the effects they'd cast as blanks. Meaning that as impostors, but on the other hand they'd make fantastic assassins.




http://forums.spacebattles.com/showpost ... tcount=257

Deadguy2001 wrote:The argument can be made that the snakes would be worse off than the genestealers in trying to infiltrate the Imperium. Especially in performing terrorism on Imperial held worlds.

Unlike the Gou'ald who like to off each other for fun, the stealers have a hive mind. Instant telepathic C3 and information sharing amongst the hybrids. And near flawless coordination.

The Goa'uld are unified here, and as such, they'll infiltrate the targeted society by following procedures fitting with this unification.
Then, again, the blank effect is most likely going to be a hindrance here.

Honestly speaking, being bald and having minor genetic defects is a lot harder to sniff out than a dude with a friggin snake in his skull.

1. They're not stuck in a skull. It would make no sense for the host to be affected in such a way. Otherwise it would mean that Carter, O'neill and Jacob all had considerable amounts of grey matter eaten away.
2. Why would a Goa'uld host stick out? From the outside, you cannot tell. From the inside, if they do body scans, then yes, you won't spot the genetic defects for 4th generation genestealers while you will spot the snake. Now, taking a blood sample, you may notice traces of unknown material (naqahdah), but if you don't spot the obvious different genotypes, then your biological science is absolutely crap there. And if it is, it's something to exploit.

But, anyway, the infiltration by blank individuals will not work well by being impostors. Blanks infiltrate by being camouflaged. The Goa'uld, to pose as the hosts they take control of, would have to find a way to reduce the psychic energy repulsion effect, along the unease effect. They'd actually have to study the pariah gene and work backwards to produce an organism or Goa'uld larvae with altered genotype to be linked to the Warp.
Mind you, that's obviously not very hard for them, especially as Niirti is part of the band. They created the Jaffa out of bog standard humans, and Niirti was developing psychic individuals.

Later, Deadguy also posted that:

Vorkas Zolowski on the Adeptus Arbites prior to his arrest for pernicious sedition against the Emperor of mankind (White Dwarf 169)

They live there in that great plascrete tower surrounded by walls and razor wire, only emerging to seize some unfortunate who has transgressed against the Imperial Laws or to patrol the city to prove that it belongs to them. There are crystal lenses and sound wave detectors on that tower that can watch citizens and listen to their conversations 100 leagues away, Imperial spy satellites watch what they can't see directly and even the Governor fears them. They aren't from here and have nothing to do with us, no more than Orks or Eldar, if they have families or children we don't know about them and we don't care. They wouldn't so much as buy a glowbulb from us and we would not sell it to them. It's ironic that they have the rather benevolent title of Arbitrators.

The part about the sound wave detectors having a range of 100 leagues may be true if they worked in a completely quiet place with no parasiting sounds, but they won't hear shit on a planet such as Terra. The sound waves produced by talking people will be completely disrupted by all the noise in-between. There's just no magic there. The effective range on such a planet will be considerably limited.
As for satellites that can watch what they can't directly see, what the heck is that nonsense? A satellite sees by receiving photons at various frequencies. It can't be more direct. If they watch it, they use photons. Therefore, they can see it, directly. There's nothing like indirect seeing, no matter what kind of trajectory photons follow, be it linear or affected by gravity.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The Gateverse humans have no connection to the Warp. They seem to have, at best, a connection to what one could consider very remotely similar to a part of what defines the Warp, and that thing would be one of the higher planes of existence, which can be used to sap belief and grow power from there by ascended beings. It is not inhabited by wild creatures or else, even less a place used by any technology from the most advanced beings to go from one place to another at FTL with their space ships.

I'm not sure I really follow this no connection to the Warp thing. The rules of the verse are just about everything but special exceptions hinted at being mutated by higher powers has a connection to the Warp. Even the Tau IIRC have a slight presence. I see no reason why humans from the Gateverse or indeed even Snakes would not show up as some presence same as I assume a Jedi could sense a Trek human.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The sarcophagus is certainly not vastly inferior. It actually is superior. The original Resurrection Cube (or Ancient Healing Device), the only healing device we know that is of ancient origin in SG-1 and ever achieved anything remotely similar, would indeed heal bodies, but individuals who would be revived were turned into half conscious zombies of some kind, and with mobility not as good as it originally was.

Evolution part 1 wrote:JACKSON: "Could it give life to something that wasn't alive in the first place?"

SELMAK: "No the sarcophagus is designed to boost health and longevity, heal or revive someone terminally injured. They are nowhere near powerful enough to animate non-living cellular matter."

CARTER: "Then what could have?"

SELMAK: "Thousands of years ago a Goa'uld found a device originally created by the Ancients. They determined its primary purpose was to heal. But it was so powerful, it's effects on human hosts ultimately proved devastating. However, after much research and experimentation, the Goa'uld was able to use the technology to create the first sarcophagus."

As to the night of the living dead effect that was only after prolonged exposure of healthy tissue much the same as a Sarcophhagus causes adverse side effects if abused. If the dingbat hadn't basicly slept with the thing under his pillow he likely wouldn't have turned into a mutant-zombie.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The part about the sound wave detectors having a range of 100 leagues may be true if they worked in a completely quiet place with no parasiting sounds, but they won't hear shit on a planet such as Terra.

I don't know unless I'm misunderstanding the quote isn't it stating they have a 100 league range based inside of a city? I mean wouldn't a city, even a podunk one on some Emperor forsaken world, be loud and noise filled?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:As for satellites that can watch what they can't directly see, what the heck is that nonsense?

I assumed it meant things one couldn't see looking out from a really tall tower, ie the sats circle the planet looking down spying and letting the inhabitence know no one is beyond their watchful eye.

sonofccn wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The Gateverse humans have no connection to the Warp. They seem to have, at best, a connection to what one could consider very remotely similar to a part of what defines the Warp, and that thing would be one of the higher planes of existence, which can be used to sap belief and grow power from there by ascended beings. It is not inhabited by wild creatures or else, even less a place used by any technology from the most advanced beings to go from one place to another at FTL with their space ships.

I'm not sure I really follow this no connection to the Warp thing. The rules of the verse are just about everything but special exceptions hinted at being mutated by higher powers has a connection to the Warp. Even the Tau IIRC have a slight presence. I see no reason why humans from the Gateverse or indeed even Snakes would not show up as some presence same as I assume a Jedi could sense a Trek human.

Thus far Old Ones have created a variety of species, some of which they enhanced with a greater link to the Immaterium. The humans were some near-purposeless creation obtained from apes.
The fact that genetic modifications can completely cut you from the Warp and actually repel anything from the Warp is a deep indication that a natural evolution can leave you out of the Warp. The Tau themselves could be another side project, it is unclear. However, humanoid factions that bear a link to the Warp have been projects of the Old Ones, as part of their war against the Necrontyr once these guys had made a deal with the C'tans.
Genetic evolution answers to environmental conditions.

This tackles a wider problem of crossovers, in that each universe tends to have some key elements which might be exclusive. Even Star Trek's warp engines use subspace based fields. Meaning that strictly speaking, the presence of something like subspace either has to proved to be true in other universes, or assumed to exist.
Subspace in Stargate is essential to the universe, but the Warp, on the other hand, I haven't read anything that says it is essential to life forms or the very fabric of the universe (but it could very well be described as such in some game guide).

The very problem is that if the OP, or debaters, assume that two different keys elements to fabric of the universe coexist, then no matter how we look at it, it means that we have clearly altered the rules of said universe as with the intrusion of a new fundamental element.

If there has to be some connection to the Warp and humans in Stargate, it has to be stated, and its magnitude indicated.

Finally, I don't recall that the Tau have any sensitivity to the Warp worth noticing. They may not be blank, but I don't think they register either.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The part about the sound wave detectors having a range of 100 leagues may be true if they worked in a completely quiet place with no parasiting sounds, but they won't hear shit on a planet such as Terra.

I don't know unless I'm misunderstanding the quote isn't it stating they have a 100 league range based inside of a city? I mean wouldn't a city, even a podunk one on some Emperor forsaken world, be loud and noise filled?

Yes, and it would certainly you could not hear anything that's that far simply because sound is just energy through a medium and disruptive sound waves would completely break the farther sound waves unless they were considerably more powerful, like a large nuclear explosion.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Thus far Old Ones have created a variety of species, some of which they enhanced with a greater link to the Immaterium. The humans were some near-purposeless creation obtained from apes.

Humans might have been modified to have a greater link to the Immaterium, they might have been modified to have a lesser link as in the case of the Pariah gene. Nothing is solidly explained or stated definatively either way.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The fact that genetic modifications can completely cut you from the Warp and actually repel anything from the Warp is a deep indication that a natural evolution can leave you out of the Warp.

Well I'm not sure how natural anything in a verse which has for all intents and purposes magic and demons can be but sure in theroy a species could evolve an "immunity" to the Warp. However it would take generations or more after being exposed to this new element before evolution would naturally come up with an answer and as you pointed out in the Gateverse there is no recorded interaction with the Warp.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:However, humanoid factions that bear a link to the Warp have been projects of the Old Ones, as part of their war against the Necrontyr once these guys had made a deal with the C'tans.

As far as I know everything by default has a link to the Warp, take the Laer for instances. They worshipped Slaanesh were not humaniod nor hinted at being an old project of the Old Ones, they presumbly had "souls" as it is considered in 40K or I very much doubt they'd entice the interest of any dark forces and in turn would largely be immune to the more cerebral effects of the whispering gods.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:This tackles a wider problem of crossovers, in that each universe tends to have some key elements which might be exclusive. Even Star Trek's warp engines use subspace based fields. Meaning that strictly speaking, the presence of something like subspace either has to proved to be true in other universes, or assumed to exist.

Well if everyone's toys don't work we might as well just stay home. Personally I think this is just overthinking the problem.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yes, and it would certainly you could not hear anything that's that far simply because sound is just energy through a medium and disruptive sound waves would completely break the farther sound waves unless they were considerably more powerful, like a large nuclear explosion.

But that would be my point, they claim to listen to presumbly people, speaking bad against the Emperor and such, for a 100 leagues from inside a city. I don't see the justification from that quote alone to argue that they'd only have a fraction of this claimed, admittedly it appears to be a third person quote and could be full of horse dung, ability. I mean like FTL drive or Warp powers if its a demostrated ability then they can do it regardless if it flips the bird to our understanding of physics.

sonofccn wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Thus far Old Ones have created a variety of species, some of which they enhanced with a greater link to the Immaterium. The humans were some near-purposeless creation obtained from apes.

Humans might have been modified to have a greater link to the Immaterium, they might have been modified to have a lesser link as in the case of the Pariah gene. Nothing is solidly explained or stated definatively either way.

There's less evidence that by default, creatures such as apes have a high connection to the Immaterium.
I doubt that things as basic as potatoes, tics or even amoeba have a soul.
As I see it, species which have been given a connection to the Warp, strong or not, are those which are particularly affected by the presence of individuals among their kind that don't.
For example, if 99.99% of the world doesn't bear that connection, it doesn't matter, because the world and species have naturally evolved to take this into account and it's seen as natural. So there's no unease. Peace, in fact, is sensed.
There seems to be a strong link between consciousness, evolved mind and the Warp. Hence the flow of emotions shaping it.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The fact that genetic modifications can completely cut you from the Warp and actually repel anything from the Warp is a deep indication that a natural evolution can leave you out of the Warp.

Well I'm not sure how natural anything in a verse which has for all intents and purposes magic and demons can be but sure in theroy a species could evolve an "immunity" to the Warp.

Demons and magic are natural things. They're part of the Warp, and the Warp is natural in 40K I believe.

However it would take generations or more after being exposed to this new element before evolution would naturally come up with an answer and as you pointed out in the Gateverse there is no recorded interaction with the Warp.

The Warp in 40K shares traits with both ascended planes and subspace from Stargate.
What we have is near-human ancestors evolving to the point of reaching a state where they can ascend, and it seems it's available to individuals with a different genotype, or some with a different brain structure and consciousness.
The only thing that has been noticed to disrupt psychic powers in Stargate is a device that radiates a given signature that messes with brain patterns for a couple dozen minutes before the effect wears off (or the brain adapts, dunno).

Mr. Oragahn wrote:However, humanoid factions that bear a link to the Warp have been projects of the Old Ones, as part of their war against the Necrontyr once these guys had made a deal with the C'tans.

As far as I know everything by default has a link to the Warp, take the Laer for instances. They worshipped Slaanesh were not humaniod nor hinted at being an old project of the Old Ones, they presumbly had "souls" as it is considered in 40K or I very much doubt they'd entice the interest of any dark forces and in turn would largely be immune to the more cerebral effects of the whispering gods.

Considering that a given gene can give some psychic humans the capacity to navigate through Warp just as much as another gene cuts them from the Warp, it's totally expected that some species could evolve in such a way as they'd grow that link.
It's possible that the development of sentience within certain species opens ways to a connection to the Warp, even if very minor and latent.
For one, the Tau's link to the Warp is very low. We see, obviously, that there is a range of outcomes regarding evolution and that special link.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:This tackles a wider problem of crossovers, in that each universe tends to have some key elements which might be exclusive. Even Star Trek's warp engines use subspace based fields. Meaning that strictly speaking, the presence of something like subspace either has to proved to be true in other universes, or assumed to exist.

Well if everyone's toys don't work we might as well just stay home. Personally I think this is just overthinking the problem.

What problem? It's obviously there to be taken into account. You can freely claim all the ground work to be valid and therefore allow subspace, Warp, hyperspace, etc., in varying universes. It's just that if two different dimensions are described as the fundamental layer of thei respective universe, suddenly claiming that both coexist in one universe and yet are obviously different on a number of points, it won't help at all. It's a paradox.
It's obviously not really relevant when you pit two ships of different universes into a given random universe and assume everything works like it would in each ship's respective universe.
But when you're dealing with X force has a connection to universe Y and attempts to interact, there is, I believe, a modicum of greater work to complete.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Yes, and it would certainly you could not hear anything that's that far simply because sound is just energy through a medium and disruptive sound waves would completely break the farther sound waves unless they were considerably more powerful, like a large nuclear explosion.

But that would be my point, they claim to listen to presumbly people, speaking bad against the Emperor and such, for a 100 leagues from inside a city. I don't see the justification from that quote alone to argue that they'd only have a fraction of this claimed, admittedly it appears to be a third person quote and could be full of horse dung, ability. I mean like FTL drive or Warp powers if its a demostrated ability then they can do it regardless if it flips the bird to our understanding of physics.

Warp drives and else follow laws we don't know. The law of listening to something by receiving the sound waves from the emitter, that is on the contrary something we know very well.
So it is podunk.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:As I see it, species which have been given a connection to the Warp, strong or not, are those which are particularly affected by the presence of individuals among their kind that don't.

Most likely but a warp presence appears to be the norm for the races encountered, as well as the Laer we can add the alien member of the Interexe who at one point forged chaos weapons. While you can say meddling by higher powers may increase or decrease the high points and low points of one's race connection to the Warp I think it is fairly safe to conclude that it is the default occurance.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:For example, if 99.99% of the world doesn't bear that connection, it doesn't matter, because the world and species have naturally evolved to take this into account and it's seen as natural. So there's no unease. Peace, in fact, is sensed.

I'm sorry are you suggesting that to one connected to the Warp, such as a baseline 40k human, wouldn't began to have his skin crawl being surronded by beings with no connection to the warp?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:There seems to be a strong link between consciousness, evolved mind and the Warp. Hence the flow of emotions shaping it.

Which I don't doubt or dispute but it doesn't mean a creature couldn't have a connection to the Warp but regardless I think we're going off stray. On average any race encountered in 40k appears to have some connection to the warp which I think strongly indicates its a natural develoment not mere meddling by the Old Ones.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The Warp in 40K shares traits with both ascended planes and subspace from Stargate.

A few basic similarities as they are both other dimenisions but they are portrayed quite differntly and are not treated in the same manner. We as far as I know have no evidence the ascended planes is linked to emotions of the material verse, isn't generaly displaed as an ocean ect.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:What we have is near-human ancestors evolving to the point of reaching a state where they can ascend, and it seems it's available to individuals with a different genotype, or some with a different brain structure and consciousness.

I may be misremembering but didn't the first ones have to use tech and research to ascend, and all followers basicly have to have a "sponsor" who cheats physics for them to do it. Seems differnt from 40k's mutant pysker population.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Considering that a given gene can give some psychic humans the capacity to navigate through Warp just as much as another gene cuts them from the Warp, it's totally expected that some species could evolve in such a way as they'd grow that link.

Which would be my point its a natural occurence. Developed quite a bit back in human history since Khorne was born from the middle ages, a history they share with Gate humanity.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:For one, the Tau's link to the Warp is very low. We see, obviously, that there is a range of outcomes regarding evolution and that special link.

The Tau may have been engineered and regardless still have a conection to the Warp. They are not blanks or what have you.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:What problem?

The meeting of the IOM and the Snakes. To be honest I just prefer to lay out what each side can do and see how it stacks up, this shifting through it all strikes me as rules lawyering to try and get your side an advantage.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It's just that if two different dimensions are described as the fundamental layer of thei respective universe, suddenly claiming that both coexist in one universe and yet are obviously different on a number of points, it won't help at all. It's a paradox.

I honestly don't see the problem. So the warp exists in the Gateverse but could never be acessed or used until now. Same for subspace in 40k. No harm, no foul.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Warp drives and else follow laws we don't know. The law of listening to something by receiving the sound waves from the emitter, that is on the contrary something we know very well.So it is podunk.

Whose to say this listening post doesn't follow laws we haven't deduced yet? Its in essence alien technology and you are claiming it can't do what it does because it violates physical law, bit like arguing Flash can't actually run that fast because it violates all we understand on how the universe works.

We know a couple of things. First, to have any connection with the Warp is to have a soul. It is made quite clear that without a soul, you cannot have a connection to the Warp.
Blanks are soulless, therefore they have no such connection. We observe that a soul also is a question of sentience plus emotions. Emotions being extremely important in that they focus a given type of energy and essence which can, in extreme cases, transform the Warp and give birth to creature solely dedicated to a particular emotion. But it's not just emotions either. Sentience allows some forms of behaviours, and strong behaviours also provoke the same effects on the Immaterium.
However, the plants, atoms, rocks, water, air and else can't have such souls.

We also know that biological lifeforms built upon the basis of DNA can have a pice of code, a gene, that repels the Warp. A mere gene can do that. It's not without tangible consequences on the Warp implied capacity to impose itself upon the material world, or not.
It couldn't be possible if the Warp truly was an essential layer of the universe, as nothing, absolutely nothing could possible repel what would be the supporting mesh of existence.

Then, there is the fact that we saw few species only, some of which despite being just as intelligent and sentient as humans or Eldars, don't have a substantial link to the Warp: the Tau are one of those species.
We also have to remember that the Milky Way once was the theater of war of the Old Ones against the Necrontyr and the C'tan, the later literally having an aversion to the Warp.
C'tans, after all, are natural born creatures, although complex, powerful and extremely old. And extremely hungry for energy.

As for the Necrons, the drones still possess a trace of their former selves, and the Necron Lords are fully sentient, yet they are soulless (Necron Codex, 3rd Ed.). Plus the fact that the C'tan managed to invent machines that would also seal off the Warp from the material universe is also revealing that the Warp is not an essential aspect of existence. It's best taken as another dimension that runs in parallel.
In the Necron Codex, again, we hear of the psychically impregnated Odysseus bolts, which supposedly marks a target, like beacons, to follow their trace through the Warp.
So in order for inanimate matter to blip in the Warp, one needs to apply an artificial process. Once again, the link is not natural and it is forced.

When you consider all those strong elements, the traits and role of a soul, the existence of at least a gene which can repel the Warp, that mere technology can seal off the Warp, the fact that the Old Ones could create a very wide variety of species with either very low or very high connections to the Warp, the fact that even the humans were a pet project of these Old Ones, this really starts to make a huge mound of reasons to think that a connection to the Warp may not be natural at all, or that if it is, evolution leads to attuned species only because they grew and were nurtured in close proximity to continual presence of the Warp.

I'm inclined to believe that a soul is a very special occurrence, unique to a certain tier of life forms, and that the most basic thing to be, amoeba or rock, should not have a soul and thus no connection to the Warp.

sonofccn wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:As I see it, species which have been given a connection to the Warp, strong or not, are those which are particularly affected by the presence of individuals among their kind that don't.

Most likely but a warp presence appears to be the norm for the races encountered, as well as the Laer we can add the alien member of the Interexe who at one point forged chaos weapons. While you can say meddling by higher powers may increase or decrease the high points and low points of one's race connection to the Warp I think it is fairly safe to conclude that it is the default occurance.

Forging Chaos weapons would clearly require a strong mastery of the Warp's energies, and we know that thus far, the most prominent species of 40K with such high capacities are products of the Old Ones.
Besides, the Necron Codex says the following about the Old Ones:

Necron Codex, 3rd Ed., p. 24 wrote: The Old Ones understood that all life is useful, and where they passed they kindled new species and impregnated thousands upon thousands of worlds to make them their own.

Where they passed, they shaped life, and they passed over many thousands of worlds, at times when all species would be strictly limited to their homeworld.
That means a huge plethora of many species grew in the wake of the Old Ones.
Heck, even the formulation could imply that the Necrontyr evolved from one of the worlds the Old Ones visited at some point.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:For example, if 99.99% of the world doesn't bear that connection, it doesn't matter, because the world and species have naturally evolved to take this into account and it's seen as natural. So there's no unease. Peace, in fact, is sensed.

I'm sorry are you suggesting that to one connected to the Warp, such as a baseline 40k human, wouldn't began to have his skin crawl being surronded by beings with no connection to the warp?

It's totally possible that as a natural evolution, life attuned to the Warp would have completely assimilated the lack of such a connection from other life forms.
However, there would be a need to make a distinction between a lack of connection, and the effect generated by blanks.

We'd have to consider that the vast majority of non attuned life doesn't have a link but doesn't repeal the Warp either. They're in a moderate position, in equilibrium, perhaps due to the presence of the Warp: the connection never got made, but the repulsion didn't exist either since the Warp still generated a kind of pressure on the evolution of life in the Milky Way and perhaps the local cluster.
I say local cluster because we know that the Tyranids have ravaged other galaxies, as per the fluff, and can use the Warp via the Hivemind.

As such, a psyker could sense the world through the Warp like a Seer does.
But I posit that an universe which has never "known" the Warp would have grown beyond that balanced, neutral point.

If this is the case, then any species from another fictional universe would be located on the Warp spectrum between the neutral to the Warp (mere matter and non sentient species) and repulsive to the Warp (pariahs/blanks/soulless/psychic-nulls).

I'd advise being careful with the soulless bit though, because although Necrons are stated to be soulless in the Codex, it could be a dramatic formulation more than a technical one, meant to reflect their lifeless essence, a different meaning of soul (as something clearly noticed to have the spark of life), not the more Warp related technical and esoteric one. After all, the Necrons do not generate the pariah effect by default.
So they still have a minimal connection of some sort, probably proportional to whatever is left of their psyche from the days when they made the deal with the Deceiver (I think it was the Deceiver).
However, on the technical side, an individual without a soul is a null.
Eventually, I would tone down my position on the effects of other fictional species introduced to the realm of Warhammer 40,000 regarding the repulsive effect.
All other effect, like protection from soul/mind related attacks outside of materialized Warp energy, would however remain.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:There seems to be a strong link between consciousness, evolved mind and the Warp. Hence the flow of emotions shaping it.

Which I don't doubt or dispute but it doesn't mean a creature couldn't have a connection to the Warp but regardless I think we're going off stray. On average any race encountered in 40k appears to have some connection to the warp which I think strongly indicates its a natural develoment not mere meddling by the Old Ones.

The trouble is that as per the evidence I dug, we know that it's possible, even say totally likely, that most of those high profile species were given shape by the Old Ones.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The Warp in 40K shares traits with both ascended planes and subspace from Stargate.

A few basic similarities as they are both other dimenisions but they are portrayed quite differntly and are not treated in the same manner. We as far as I know have no evidence the ascended planes is linked to emotions of the material verse, isn't generaly displaed as an ocean ect.

Indeed. However, belief seems to be something tangible which ascended beings can use for power. At least the Ori seem to have done that and the Ancients remained clear of interventions for fear of that.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:What we have is near-human ancestors evolving to the point of reaching a state where they can ascend, and it seems it's available to individuals with a different genotype, or some with a different brain structure and consciousness.

I may be misremembering but didn't the first ones have to use tech and research to ascend, and all followers basicly have to have a "sponsor" who cheats physics for them to do it. Seems different from 40k's mutant pysker population.

They created a machine, but it had very random effects (although, conveniently, the first time it was used by a human, it worked perfectly).
The Ancients learned to ascend naturally, but they already had reached a certain strata of evolution and had all sorts of power. Adria and humans who had evolved in the same way could also ascend naturally without any help. Oma would help baseline humans, like the monk of Kheb, Daniel Jackson, and Abydonians.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Considering that a given gene can give some psychic humans the capacity to navigate through Warp just as much as another gene cuts them from the Warp, it's totally expected that some species could evolve in such a way as they'd grow that link.

Which would be my point its a natural occurrence. Developed quite a bit back in human history since Khorne was born from the middle ages, a history they share with Gate humanity.

That it is a natural occurrence doesn't mean it has to happen. There's such a vast field of genetic combinations.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:What problem?

The meeting of the IOM and the Snakes. To be honest I just prefer to lay out what each side can do and see how it stacks up, this shifting through it all strikes me as rules lawyering to try and get your side an advantage.

Sue me. It's VS debate, and I'm a Gater. Should I ignore what is potentially an advantage to the universe I prefer? I think not.
Or are we going to stop paying attention to such issues on the simple basis that it may give one side an advantage and stems from a subjective motive, truth be damned? Would the idea be more valid if it came from someone who loved 40K but didn't like Stargate? That would be silly. Let's not harass the people and instead focus on the arguments. Better that way. ;)

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It's just that if two different dimensions are described as the fundamental layer of their respective universe, suddenly claiming that both coexist in one universe and yet are obviously different on a number of points, it won't help at all. It's a paradox.

I honestly don't see the problem. So the warp exists in the Gateverse but could never be accessed or used until now. Same for subspace in 40k. No harm, no foul.

Sure, but you're clearly evading the problem here. I'm talking of mutually exclusive essential components of each universe, respectively.

That said, the method you cite is fine by me, and is the one used most of the time in vs debates.
But even then, I don't see any reason to consider the Warp to be of any particular effect on humans who don't originate from Warhammer 40000.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Warp drives and else follow laws we don't know. The law of listening to something by receiving the sound waves from the emitter, that is on the contrary something we know very well.So it is podunk.

Whose to say this listening post doesn't follow laws we haven't deduced yet? Its in essence alien technology and you are claiming it can't do what it does because it violates physical law, bit like arguing Flash can't actually run that fast because it violates all we understand on how the universe works.

"There are crystal lenses and sound wave detectors on that tower that can watch citizens and listen to their conversations 100 leagues away, Imperial spy satellites watch what they can't see directly and even the Governor fears them."

Because it speaks of systems which look nothing exceptional at all! Lenses to watch. Sound wave detectors to hear. Like eye globes and ears.
The only way to listen to a conversation without having issues about range is using hyper accurate sensors which, for some reason, can be focused on a given area and scan the sound waves through air. For example, the sensor tech needed for teleportation tech, which if it didn't use Warp, would then allow such towers to everything about an area, down to each particle. But that's just not the way things are described at all.

About the Necrons, Mr. O, they just got a new Codex that really changes up their lore.

I didn't notice significant alterations though, merely expansion on the past of the Necrontyr before their fall. Sure that with an empire ruling over a galaxy and much to write about the species per se, there's lot of room for fluff there. I notice that they borrow more from Egyptian mythology here and there, with some names given to dynasties, or even the title of Phaerons. Not really exciting on that side of things.
I still have lots of the fluff of the former codex to read. I'll post a bit soon.

Except now the Necrons rebelled against the C'Tan and defeated them, and use the Webway like the Eldar and Dark Eldar do now. It's not so much an expansion as it is a retcon.

Khas wrote:Except now the Necrons rebelled against the C'Tan and defeated them, and use the Webway like the Eldar and Dark Eldar do now. It's not so much an expansion as it is a retcon.

You mean they defeated them recently or they did ages ago (60 to a few millions of years ago)? Less grim dark then? The Old Ones aren't the ones who kicked the C'tans then?

It doesn't change anything to my claim though.