Starfleet Jedi

Circumstances:
Light Yagami joins SFJ and immediately disagrees with a post made by StarWarsStarTrek in a profanity and threat-filled rant. Mike Dicenso bans him for two weeks, then posts pictures of himself on his last vacation. Light Yagami lurks the forum and finds these pictures, then writes Mike Dicenso's name in the notebook in this entry:
'Mike Dicenso dies, 02/15/2012, of an infection after being scratched by MoJo's cat. In his last hours, he writes a 20 page manifesto describing his life, only he writes it as if he were a homosexual furry with a one centimeter long penis who has never had a sexual encounter of any kind.'
what happens?

mojo wrote:Circumstances:
Light Yagami joins SFJ and immediately disagrees with a post made by StarWarsStarTrek in a profanity and threat-filled rant. Mike Dicenso bans him for two weeks, then posts pictures of himself on his last vacation. Light Yagami lurks the forum and finds these pictures, then writes Mike Dicenso's name in the notebook in this entry:
'Mike Dicenso dies, xx/xx/2012, of an infection after being scratched by MoJo's cat. In his last hours, he writes a 20 page manifesto describing his life, only he writes it as if he were a homosexual furry with a one centimeter long penis who has never had a sexual encounter of any kind.'
what happens? besides me getting banned, i mean.

Mike never dies, as the nomenclature is invalid, for there is no xx that could pass a month, stopping at 12 on the Julian calender (xx being, at best, understandable as 20). The special book itself therefore faces a paradox it cannot solve and suffers autodafé.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

mojo wrote:Circumstances:
Light Yagami joins SFJ and immediately disagrees with a post made by StarWarsStarTrek in a profanity and threat-filled rant. Mike Dicenso bans him for two weeks, then posts pictures of himself on his last vacation. Light Yagami lurks the forum and finds these pictures, then writes Mike Dicenso's name in the notebook in this entry:
'Mike Dicenso dies, xx/xx/2012, of an infection after being scratched by MoJo's cat. In his last hours, he writes a 20 page manifesto describing his life, only he writes it as if he were a homosexual furry with a one centimeter long penis who has never had a sexual encounter of any kind.'
what happens? besides me getting banned, i mean.

Mike never dies, as the nomenclature is invalid, for there is no xx that could pass a month, stopping at 12 on the Julian calender (xx being, at best, understandable as 20). The special book itself therefore faces a paradox it cannot solve and suffers autodafé.

uh, i simply meant that the xx would be whatever month/date happened to be the date on which the situation occurred.

also, and you had no way of knowing this, but if the stated death is impossible in some way then the target simply dies 40 seconds after the entry is written of a heart attack. there is no means by which the book can fail to kill. i have to assume this would be even less pleasing to mike, since he wouldn't even get the time it took to write the 20 page manifesto.

you know, as stupid as i admit it sounds, if you have the most remote interest in anime or manga you really should check out death note. it is exceedingly good.

mojo wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

mojo wrote:Circumstances:
Light Yagami joins SFJ and immediately disagrees with a post made by StarWarsStarTrek in a profanity and threat-filled rant. Mike Dicenso bans him for two weeks, then posts pictures of himself on his last vacation. Light Yagami lurks the forum and finds these pictures, then writes Mike Dicenso's name in the notebook in this entry:
'Mike Dicenso dies, xx/xx/2012, of an infection after being scratched by MoJo's cat. In his last hours, he writes a 20 page manifesto describing his life, only he writes it as if he were a homosexual furry with a one centimeter long penis who has never had a sexual encounter of any kind.'
what happens? besides me getting banned, i mean.

Mike never dies, as the nomenclature is invalid, for there is no xx that could pass a month, stopping at 12 on the Julian calender (xx being, at best, understandable as 20). The special book itself therefore faces a paradox it cannot solve and suffers autodafé.

uh, i simply meant that the xx would be whatever month/date happened to be the date on which the situation occurred.

Then it has to be written explicitly, otherwise you risk "crashing" the book's spell mechanism.

also, and you had no way of knowing this, but if the stated death is impossible in some way then the target simply dies 40 seconds after the entry is written of a heart attack. there is no means by which the book can fail to kill. i have to assume this would be even less pleasing to mike, since he wouldn't even get the time it took to write the 20 page manifesto.

you know, as stupid as i admit it sounds, if you have the most remote interest in anime or manga you really should check out death note. it is exceedingly good.

Actually it can fail to kill. The problem has to occur at a low level (as in programming), so low that it shortcircuits the book's own supra-natural capacity.

Simply put, the book can't know it won't be able to kill Mike, because the problem involves the fate of the book itself.
The book will simply apply the death note routine as usual, but then fail to work it out. However, the book's function is to make the death note work, so much that it will try anything possible to do so. The problem that the book isn't fighting against events which put Mike out of reach of the situation he was meant to die in.
The problem is that the book is wasting its power on the crushing an order that has is semantically invalid.
It couldn't even be "conscious" of that problem because by the time it's crashed, as the crash is due to an internal error, it's not even discernible by whatever diagnostic the book runs to know that the written death method won't be executable through its supra-natural abilities.

Now, that's theoretical, and I suppose that the "by default post-40 seconds death" is a safety measure to prevent the book from wasting time on commands which don't produce any result or don't seem to reach an end (which is different than being impossible to run, which presupposes a coding mistake that literally prevents the death note spell from actually starting or even working properly).

So, as the book beings its death note function for Mike, it starts counting 40 seconds.

Note: time dilation powers would obviously come handy if they allowed someone to reach said book and destroy it. This assumes that the destruction of the book stops the death note spell.

The problem is that in your first nomenclature, you failed to include the necessary details. The death note "program" wouldn't even start because you didn't provide a proper date. Which means that the book would wait forever to meet the proper time in order to launch the death note program. But this would never come, so the 40 seconds countdown wouldn't even happen anyway.

That, unless the 40 seconds death failsafe also gets triggered if, as running like some supervising application, it realizes that the book has not activated the death note for Mike. However, it would require proof that the book is capable of recognizing erroneous date input. That "Doctor Watson" survey would either be monitored by the 40s failsafe or by any other application from the book.

If not, I'm sorry, but your incapacity to comply with necessary nomenclature requirements means that Mike is absolutely safe, as the date you've given isn't even a date and is totally bogus.

but, as interesting as all that was, mike would simply die 40 seconds after light wrote the xx/xx/2012 date of a heart attack. again, there is no way that the death note can fail to kill.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Actually it can fail to kill. The problem has to occur at a low level (as in programming), so low that it shortcircuits the book's own supra-natural capacity.

there are many rules to the death note which make sure that the death note cannot fail to kill. you had no way of knowing them, of course.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The problem is that in your first nomenclature, you failed to include the necessary details. The death note "program" wouldn't even start because you didn't provide a proper date. Which means that the book would wait forever to meet the proper time in order to launch the death note program. But this would never come, so the 40 seconds countdown wouldn't even happen anyway.

sorry, no. the death of the target can only be placed up to 23 days in the future. now this doesn't matter, because the note would simply kill mike after being given an incorrect date, but even if we assume that it wouldn't understand that the date was false, in an absolute maximum of 23 days, mike dies.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Then it has to be written explicitly, otherwise you risk "crashing" the book's spell mechanism.

it's weird to harp on that. i already explained that i left the xx/xx/2012 so that regardless of when someone reads the thread, they could fill it in for themselves.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It couldn't even be "conscious" of that problem because by the time it's crashed, as the crash is due to an internal error, it's not even discernible by whatever diagnostic the book runs to know that the written death method won't be executable through its supra-natural abilities.

the death note is not a computer. it cannot crash. if an ordered death is impossible, it simply kills by heart attack. seriously, if you'd read the manga or seen the anime, you'd know your entire argument is absurd.
don't take that the wrong way, i've said repeatedly you had no way of knowing.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Note: time dilation powers would obviously come handy if they allowed someone to reach said book and destroy it. This assumes that the destruction of the book stops the death note spell.

unfortunately, no again. once it's been written, even destruction of the note does not stop the death. this is written as a rule in the manga. also, the death note does not work by magic and is not a spell.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The problem is that in your first nomenclature, you failed to include the necessary details. The death note "program" wouldn't even start because you didn't provide a proper date. Which means that the book would wait forever to meet the proper time in order to launch the death note program. But this would never come, so the 40 seconds countdown wouldn't even happen anyway.

well thought out, but finally, no. as long as the name is written, it's all over.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:If not, I'm sorry, but your incapacity to comply with necessary nomenclature requirements means that Mike is absolutely safe, as the date you've given isn't even a date and is totally bogus.

this actually means instant death, as his name is still there.

alright.. can we stop with the xx/xx/2012 argument? i've explained twice that light would not actually write the date in that form.
...
screw it. here you go. valid date.

Circumstances:
Light Yagami joins SFJ and immediately disagrees with a post made by StarWarsStarTrek in a profanity and threat-filled rant. Mike Dicenso bans him for two weeks, then posts pictures of himself on his last vacation. Light Yagami lurks the forum and finds these pictures, then writes Mike Dicenso's name in the notebook in this entry:
'Mike Dicenso dies, 02/15/2012, of an infection after being scratched by MoJo's cat. In his last hours, he writes a 20 page manifesto describing his life, only he writes it as if he were a homosexual furry with a one centimeter long penis who has never had a sexual encounter of any kind.'
what happens?

mojo wrote:but, as interesting as all that was, mike would simply die 40 seconds after light wrote the xx/xx/2012 date of a heart attack. again, there is no way that the death note can fail to kill.

Why would that happen? Either it kills at the date, or something else.
That 40 seconds rules isn't clear.

Besides, Mike has no heart.
And he has also found a Goa'uld sarcophagus.

mojo wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Actually it can fail to kill. The problem has to occur at a low level (as in programming), so low that it shortcircuits the book's own supra-natural capacity.

there are many rules to the death note which make sure that the death note cannot fail to kill. you had no way of knowing them, of course.

Can these rules actually prevent the book from conceptually crashing?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The problem is that in your first nomenclature, you failed to include the necessary details. The death note "program" wouldn't even start because you didn't provide a proper date. Which means that the book would wait forever to meet the proper time in order to launch the death note program. But this would never come, so the 40 seconds countdown wouldn't even happen anyway.

sorry, no. the death of the target can only be placed up to 23 days in the future. now this doesn't matter, because the note would simply kill mike after being given an incorrect date, but even if we assume that it wouldn't understand that the date was false, in an absolute maximum of 23 days, mike dies.

How do we know that the book kills if given an incorrect date?
Does the DN work on Internet avatars? After all, you think that there's a Mike Dicenso on the other end of that "name".

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Then it has to be written explicitly, otherwise you risk "crashing" the book's spell mechanism.

it's weird to harp on that. i already explained that i left the xx/xx/2012 so that regardless of when someone reads the thread, they could fill it in for themselves.

I quoted your OP, you didn't. You failed. I pwned j00!!1!

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It couldn't even be "conscious" of that problem because by the time it's crashed, as the crash is due to an internal error, it's not even discernible by whatever diagnostic the book runs to know that the written death method won't be executable through its supra-natural abilities.

the death note is not a computer. it cannot crash. if an ordered death is impossible, it simply kills by heart attack. seriously, if you'd read the manga or seen the anime, you'd know your entire argument is absurd.
don't take that the wrong way, i've said repeatedly you had no way of knowing.

I didn't read or watch anything of that. I'm probing your magnificent knowledge.
Are there examples of a death note being badly written, and what were the effects?

Everything can be likened to a computer. Even God.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Note: time dilation powers would obviously come handy if they allowed someone to reach said book and destroy it. This assumes that the destruction of the book stops the death note spell.

unfortunately, no again. once it's been written, even destruction of the note does not stop the death. this is written as a rule in the manga. also, the death note does not work by magic and is not a spell.

Magic, wizardry, destiny, you name it. That it's not described as magic doesn't mean it's not understood as such by people who know magic. It's the same thing with physics and theories' names.
For all intents and purposes, the mechanics are magical, and very powerful. They dwell in unreachable regions of dark powers and malevolence. Brrrr....

Also, the book sends an order to the death? Or is the book doing the killing? It's an important difference.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The problem is that in your first nomenclature, you failed to include the necessary details. The death note "program" wouldn't even start because you didn't provide a proper date. Which means that the book would wait forever to meet the proper time in order to launch the death note program. But this would never come, so the 40 seconds countdown wouldn't even happen anyway.

well thought out, but finally, no. as long as the name is written, it's all over.

Death in 23 days no matter what, that's it?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:If not, I'm sorry, but your incapacity to comply with necessary nomenclature requirements means that Mike is absolutely safe, as the date you've given isn't even a date and is totally bogus.

this actually means instant death, as his name is still there.

You really need to explain why it's now instant death. I mean, this whole instant death, no 40 seconds death, wait death at date X, screw that, death in 23 days no matter what... this is confusing. :)

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Can these rules actually prevent

the book from conceptually crashing?

what i said is that there are many rules that make it

impossible for the death note to fail to kill. again,

the book cannot crash. it does not function as a

computer.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:How do we know that the book kills

if given an incorrect date?

because, as you said yourself, it would be impossible

for mike to die on xx/xx/2012.

How to Use: LIV wrote:In the occasion where the

cause of death is possible but the situation is not,

only the cause of death will take effect for that

victim. If both the cause and the situation are

impossible, that victim will die of heart

attack.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Does the DN work on Internet

avatars? After all, you think that there's a Mike

Dicenso on the other end of that "name".

How to Use: V wrote:3. The human who becomes the

owner of the Death Note can, in exchange of half

his/her remaining life, get the eyes of the Shinigami

which will enable him/her to see a human’s name and

remaining life span when looking through them.

How to Use: XX wrote:1. In order to see the names

and life spans of humans by using the eye power of the

god of death, the owner must look at more than half of

that person’s face. When looking from top to bottom, he

must look at least from the head to the nose. If he

looks at only the eyes and under, he will not be able

to see the person’s name and life span. Also, even

though some parts of the face, for example the eyes,

nose or mouth are hidden, if he can basically see the

whole face, he will be able to see the person’s name

and life span. It is still not clear how much exposure

is needed to tell a person's name and life span, as

this needs to be verified.
2. If the above conditions are met, names and life

spans can be seen through photos and pictures, no

matter how old they are. But this is sometimes

influenced by the vividness and size. Also, names and

life spans cannot be seen by face drawings, however

realistic they may be.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I quoted your OP, you didn't. You

failed. I pwned j00!!1!

...

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I didn't read or watch anything of

that. I'm probing your magnificent knowledge.

my knowledge does not wish to be probed if you do not

have any interest in death note outside my joke thread.

Mr.Oragahn wrote:Are there examples of a death note

being badly written, and what were the effects?

if you mean a note with errors such as impossible

conditions or incorrect dates, then yes there are

examples of that and i have already posted the rules

which govern them. again, the effect of that sort of

badly written note simply causes the death to default

to a heart attack.

How to Use: XI wrote:3. As you see above, the time

and conditions of death can be changed, but once the

victim’s name has been written, the individual’s death

can never be avoided.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Everything can be likened to a

computer. Even God.

and like god, the death note is infallible in it's

abilities within it's set rules.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Magic, wizardry, destiny, you name

it. That it's not described as magic doesn't mean it's

not understood as such by people who know magic. It's

the same thing with physics and theories' names.
For all intents and purposes, the mechanics are

magical, and very powerful.

only in the sense that any sufficiently advanced

technology is indistinguishable from magic. the

shinigami realm is nothing but barren desert, but there

are skulls and bones from earth animals all over the

place, and the human world is connected to the

shinigami realm by some kind of portal. the shinigami

themselves have lost their entire history - noone

remembers who they are, where they come from, what

their purpose is. they know how to use the death notes,

and have had them as far back as any of them remembers,

but have no idea where they come from or how they work

either. there are waaaaaay too many variables to try

to lock the death note's activities down as magic.

i suppose what i should have written was 'there is no

more evidence to support the death note being magical

than there is to support any of a billion other

possibilities.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Also, the book sends an order to

the death? Or is the book doing the killing? It's an

important difference.

the note changes a human's destiny. there is no way to

know the answer to your question. that is never

addressed.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Death in 23 days no matter what,

that's it?

yes.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:You really need to explain why

it's now instant death. I mean, this whole instant

death, no 40 seconds death, wait death at date X, screw

that, death in 23 days no matter what... this is

confusing. :)

you really need to accept that the different variations in the deaths and in the rules are irrelevant. the only thing that matters is that..

How to Use: XI wrote:...once the

victim’s name has been written, the individual’s death

can never be avoided.

before i saw your post saying you found this thread amusing, i thought you were mocking me here. if my last post in this thread seems short on patience, that's why. i probably should have known better. i will post the requested info on the various methods of death and rules of the death note later today if you're still interested. apologies.

mojo wrote:before i saw your post saying you found this thread amusing, i thought you were mocking me here.

Aren't you mocking Mike here?
I'll demonstrate in short order the full extent of my dialectical powers. Be prepared.

Mojo, I have a question about how the Death Note would function if two people who had the same name. Take this scenario: There is a man named Joe Shmo. He has a son, Joe Shmo Jr. Jr. has a son named Joe Shmo III. Now, Joe Shmo Jr. is a mob hitman. His father is a doctor, though, and his son is a student in high school with aspirations of becoming a police officer so he can stop mob hitmen like his father and is doing his utmost to stop his father from killing anyone else but is having difficulty due to being estranged from him and his father hiding from him. Now, you don't want to kill Joe Shmo or Joe Shmo III, but you don't know that Joe Shmo Jr. actually is a Jr. and has both a father and a son with the same name. What happens if you just write Joe Shmo in the book given that there are three of them? Does the father die? Does the intended target, Joe Shmo Jr. die? Do all three die, or do none of them die due to the book not knowing which one it's supposed to kill? This could also come up with two people randomly having the same name, too, even if they're not family members.

Good question...

that IS a good question, which is why it was dealt with almost immediately in the story. the detective L, who is working on the death note case, suspects light yagami to be the user of the death note (correctly). light is a college student, and to get closer to him, L enters the college and flatly admits that he believes light to be such to his face. during this time, he uses a name which is also the name of a famous pop singer in japan. this makes him completely safe, as for the death note to work, you must have in mind the face of the target and his/her true name (this is why i wrote that mike dicenso posted pictures of his latest vacation). therefore, even if light were to somehow figure out his true name, chances are that he would not be able to help himself from thinking of the pop singer's face as he wrote it.
this rule exists of course so that thousands of people don't die every time someon's name is written down.