C&C3 vs. Battletech

[l33telboi]

Command & Conquer earth is as it was during the third game, just before the Scrin showed up. But now, for some strange reason, they will be facing a different enemy. Namely the Clans from Battletech. The Clans goal will be to completely pacify the entire planet, which means destroying both the GDI and NOD forces. But given the emphasis on honor that Clan society demands, they will not commit their entire force to the assault, neither will they bombard the planet from space.

The battle will be divided into three phases:

1. Deal with the orbital weapons platforms around the planet.
2. Conquer all the blue zones on earth with as little collateral damage as possible.
3. Weed out the NOD resistance in the yellow zones.

P.S: Only accepted canon for this debate is fluff and novels. No game mechanics based calculations will be allowed for either side.

[Trinoya]

Clan takes earth.

1. In command and conquer earths population is decimated. 30% of the planet is uninhabitable by normal carbon based life, and only 20% of it is considered safe. The Clans submit 5% of their total forces from clan... Goliath Scorpian just for shits and giggles.

2. There are no active space forces demonstrated to be weapon capable in all of command and conquer. There are defensive satellites and installations in space, however these have weak defenses at best per the destruction of the Philadelphia.

3. The clan is extremely organized, has much more logistical backing than either Nod or GDI. They conquered significantly more planets, each with their own tanks, helicopters, and soldiers that are on par with Nod/GDI in technology (rail guns, laser guns, etc). They didn't just conquer them... they steamrolled them.

4. Nod will have some time to prepare a counter attack, GDI will come under attack first. When the clan moves on to Nod, Tiberium weaponry will be used liberally. However, as these are the clans they can replace tiberium infected metals or even entire mechs with both mobile repair stations, orbital ships, and reserve mechs.

5. Rail guns will be effective but only those mounted on larger vehicles. Personal rail guns, the type carried by soldiers, are generally not a problem for medium to heavy clan mechs (however, we can expect light mechs to be damaged enough for it to be considered a problem by mobile forces carrying rail guns). Battleships of earth seem to still be in use and may provide some good heavy weapon support (bet GDI wishes they kept those older mechs around!), but it is a problem of being in the right place at the right time.

6. With space superiority comes the ability to land forces where ever the clan wishes. Key GDI locations (Goddard for example) will be struck hard and repeatedly until they fall.

7. Eventually, Nod and GDI will team up. At this point the clan forces will finally stop gaining ground wherever they please.

Due to the very limited number of locations the Clans have to attack, and the fact they will be able to attack them as they please, with little hassel until they get to their destination the combination of GDI and Nod forces will even be recognized as a need by Kain, no matter how much he may want to be against it.

The alliance will only last as long as it takes for GDI or the Brotherhood to betray one another.

8. Assuming best case scenario, the GDI and Nod do not betray one another and continue to fight. The clan finally stops gaining ground in small mech battles. They commit an additional 5% of their total army and crush earth.




I'll be honest, only nod lasers and GDI rail guns have ANY chance of hurting Clan Tech Mechs that are medium and up. Without the ability to actively ward off clan forces (which essentially RAPED the rest of the battletech universe because they were bored, and forced the known universe to ally against them just to stop them) it's only a matter of time before strategic striking does them in.

This does not in anyway mean they are not a threat... but mechs are fast, deadly, and durable... and the clan can build new ones as it pleases. A general rule in battletech is mechs are not destroyed, but get disabled more often than not. Sure any pilot can set his fusion reactor to blow (and take out a city or two), but odds are he will eject, call for pick up and evac for his damaged Mech, and that will be that. The clan certainly isn't going to let the GDI or Nod have mechs of any decent strength on the battle field, they'd rather destroy them first.

The best chance the GDI/Nod have is after they ally they can try and call out for one big battle to decide the war... and pray to god they win.

[l33telboi]

2. There are no active space forces demonstrated to be weapon capable in all of command and conquer. There are defensive satellites and installations in space, however these have weak defenses at best per the destruction of the Philadelphia.

The Ion Cannon network is able to target and shoot down targets heading for earth. That's exactly what they did when the Scrin attacked. There are also a number of ASAT weapons in orbit, but I'm not sure exactly how good they'll be against stuff other then missiles.

And using the destruction of the Philadelphia as some form of benchmark when it comes to the effectiveness of the ASAT grid is ludicrous. The entire ASAT grid was down, you yourself did that in the mission before the space station is nuked.

and soldiers that are on par with Nod/GDI in technology (rail guns, laser guns, etc).

That they use lasers and railguns isn't as important as quantifying the weapons and their strength. If you simply said that lasers are all equal, then by extension it'd also mean that normal weaponry like a pistol and a 120mm tank cannon, is also equally powerful.

5. Rail guns will be effective but only those mounted on larger vehicles. Personal rail guns, the type carried by soldiers, are generally not a problem for medium to heavy clan mechs (however, we can expect light mechs to be damaged enough for it to be considered a problem by mobile forces carrying rail guns).

Something a little more substantial when it comes to quantification would be nice. And it’s not like the entire clan is composed of Battlemechs, they use elementals, tanks and an airforce as well. Though these might be more limited due to the focus on mechs.

It’s not like a rifleman stands a chance against a modern tank either. But that doesn’t mean they’re without their uses.

Battleships of earth seem to still be in use and may provide some good heavy weapon support (bet GDI wishes they kept those older mechs around!)

The Mammoth tank mounts cannons far larger then the Titan ever did. And even in C&C3 the GDI is using mechs, in the form of that artillery mech (the name escapes me at the moment), and NOD still uses guardians.

8. Assuming best case scenario, the GDI and Nod do not betray one another and continue to fight. The clan finally stops gaining ground in small mech battles. They commit an additional 5% of their total army and crush earth.

Specific numbers like 5% without any backup or support is not exactly something I relish.

I'll be honest, only nod lasers and GDI rail guns have ANY chance of hurting Clan Tech Mechs that are medium and up.

I doubt that. Artillery, air-strikes, nuclear strikes etc should deal with them just fine. Depending on the magnitude of fire, of course. More exotic stuff like EMP weaponry (which even civilians have access too) should do fine, as well.

[Jedi Master Spock]

I think EMPs are a little oversold there. BattleMechs probably do have hardened circuitry.

The Ion Cannon network, however, I think is going to be the important sticky point. Is it vulnerable to BT fighters? Or would it take out the invaders before they could land?

I'd also like to know a bit more about C&C3 weaponry before committing to anything on the ground side of things. It's been a long time since I played C&C, and I think that was C&C2...

And there's definitely no question that you can take out Clan BattleMechs with nukes. I'm not sure how viable that strategy is in the long run, though.

[l33telboi]

I think EMPs are a little oversold there. BattleMechs probably do have hardened circuitry.

Probably, but then the same argument could be made for C&C stuff. Their EMP technology does seem a whole lot more potent then our own.

The Ion Cannon network, however, I think is going to be the important sticky point. Is it vulnerable to BT fighters? Or would it take out the invaders before they could land?

This is a question that could go either way, IMO. The Ion Cannons are said to have a wide variety of defenses around them (kinetic-kill, lasers, etc), put there to defend against direct attacks against the Cannons. So it's not too much of leap to think that they'd be useful against fighter like vehicles.

The crux is of course quantity. I have no doubt that if the Clans throw enough fighters at the defenses, they'll take them down.

I'd also like to know a bit more about C&C3 weaponry before committing to anything on the ground side of things. It's been a long time since I played C&C, and I think that was C&C2...

The Predator, GDIs main battletank, mounts a 150mm turret which can be upgraded to a railgun. Then there's the Mammoth which is a much larger tank with dual cannons and missile launchers. Not sure about the caliber there though.

Both GDI and NOD do have mechs as well, of course. Though they're not the primary fighting vehicles. The mechs come in the form of the Avatar, a NOD walker, and the Juggernaut, a GDI walker. The former is equipped with a large laser (though there's nothing quantifiable on it) and can be equipped with additional lasers, as well as a flame-thrower. It is basically the NOD equivalent to the Mammoth Tank. The latter is more like an artillery-piece, featuring three 200mm cannons.

As a side-note, I do have the C&C3 novel by DiCandido, but haven't read it yet. There's quite possible more info in it.

And there's definitely no question that you can take out Clan BattleMechs with nukes. I'm not sure how viable that strategy is in the long run, though.

It was a rather extreme example. But it's worth noting that nuking is considered a viable tacical-level weapon from NODs POW.

[Mike DiCenso]

Something just dawned on me. Does C&C Earth get it the Allied Chrono technology? If so, that would a very extremely potent advantage for them against the BT Clans technology, and could very well decide the war since the C&C forces (ChronoTroopers) can effectively wipe entire Clan units from existance.

Also, are the events and technologies from Yuri's Revenge allowed? The Yuri Psychic Dominators technology is another major decider here. There is nothing I know of in the BT-verse that can stop something like that.
-Mike

[l33telboi]

Something just dawned on me. Does C&C Earth get it the Allied Chrono technology? If so, that would a very extremely potent advantage for them against the BT Clans technology, and could very well decide the war since the C&C forces (ChronoTroopers) can effectively wipe entire Clan units from existance.

Also, are the events and technologies from Yuri's Revenge allowed? The Yuri Psychic Dominators technology is another major decider here. There is nothing I know of in the BT-verse that can stop something like that.

Red Alert and the main Command & Conquer stuff are separate, that's why we've never seen stuff like this in C&C.

So no. Only stuff from the C&C side of things.

[Mike DiCenso]

Awww. Pretty much with that you've taken away any reasonable chance at victory that the C&C Earth has.
-Mike

[Jedi Master Spock]

Probably, but then the same argument could be made for C&C stuff. Their EMP technology does seem a whole lot more potent then our own.

Fair enough. How well can it be deployed in the field?

This is a question that could go either way, IMO. The Ion Cannons are said to have a wide variety of defenses around them (kinetic-kill, lasers, etc), put there to defend against direct attacks against the Cannons. So it's not too much of leap to think that they'd be useful against fighter like vehicles.

The crux is of course quantity. I have no doubt that if the Clans throw enough fighters at the defenses, they'll take them down.

The Clans have a number of fighters and warships, but not precisely an unlimited supply.

The Predator, GDIs main battletank, mounts a 150mm turret which can be upgraded to a railgun. Then there's the Mammoth which is a much larger tank with dual cannons and missile launchers. Not sure about the caliber there though.

Both GDI and NOD do have mechs as well, of course. Though they're not the primary fighting vehicles. The mechs come in the form of the Avatar, a NOD walker, and the Juggernaut, a GDI walker. The former is equipped with a large laser (though there's nothing quantifiable on it) and can be equipped with additional lasers, as well as a flame-thrower. It is basically the NOD equivalent to the Mammoth Tank. The latter is more like an artillery-piece, featuring three 200mm cannons.

Probably the easiest way for us to handle these is to first guesstimate them based on the game-mechanical treatment of "primitive" cannon in BattleTech. The most recent rulebook gives what I think corresponds roughly to modern-ish 120mm, 170mm, and 200mm cannon as 3, 6, and 9 damage weapons that do three less damage to BattleMechs (0, 3, and 6) because of their revolutionary new armor type.

I'd say if the NOD artillery piece has 200mm guns, the Mammoth tank probably matches it. Even if the Mammoth Tank is a tad slow, it's probably capable of hurting BattleMechs with enough hits, especially lighter BattleMechs. As with regular WH40k tanks, they may be at a noticeable disadvantage ton for ton, but they can't be ignored altogether, particularly when the numbers are stacked.

And how do the numbers look? C&C Earth is really heavily militarized, damaged or not - what are we talking, a million tanks on the whole planet?

It was a rather extreme example. But it's worth noting that nuking is considered a viable tacical-level weapon from NODs POW.

Mmm-hm. They fight dirty.

There is the question of production rates and stockpiles of nuclear arms. It's a very expensive weapon to deploy a lot of, but I think killing one BattleMech with one Davy Crockett is a worthwhile trade.

[Trinoya]

The Ion Cannon network is able to target and shoot down targets heading for earth. That's exactly what they did when the Scrin attacked. There are also a number of ASAT weapons in orbit, but I'm not sure exactly how good they'll be against stuff other then missiles.

Please give me proof for the ASAT weapons being in space other than the Ion Cannons… because last I heard and read the other two ASAT networked weapons were kinetic kill missiles and lasers… which will be very ineffective against extremely armored drop ships.

Furthermore… The Ion Cannon Network was extremely INEFFECTIVE against an UNARMED Scrin assault of 6 large ships. The network shot down exactly TWO ships just as all the ships broke apart into 39 smaller vessels which proceeded to successfully land on earth. It was laughable to watch when the Ion Cannons TRIED to hold of the scrin, and furthermore you were able to detail a lot about their maneuverability, which was terrible at best. If it came under attack by nimbly moving clan tech fighters it not only wouldn't stand a chance… it would be obliterated.

EDIT/NOTE: The clan warships seem to have a very good range, however the exact firepower and range figures are hard to detail without utilizing game mechanics, due to a lack of fluff on this area. It should be noted that the Class-20 Naval Autocannons of the Sovetskii Soyuz were considered to have a range long enough to keep other warships at bay in space. This is a smaller clan warship, for the record and comes equipped with 20 fighters standard... you could expect it to be the head of any assault. Due to the slow movement of Ion Cannons into position (their most glaring weakness, as admitted by GDI) and the relative speed of these ships in comparison... there is no shooting war in space... again, it is over before it starts. As GDI fields no heavy space craft that can actually take the war to these ships after the Ion Cannons are down... frankly... I feel sorry for them. Back to the regular post.


The ASAT weapons are furthermore networked in large gigantic sectors that over see vast stretches of the earth (the dumbest thing I've ever seen), and furthermore no back up system is in place. Even worse the entire network is governed at Goddard Maryland.
Even assuming a network designed to shoot down lightly armored missiles and aircraft, which is its dedicated purpose for existing, can harm space based mechs, it is not a system that was able to do ANYTHING to the Scrin assault forces who over ran numerous cities shortly there after, with vast airforces.

Frankly, all a drop ship would have to do is fly over a red zone (like the scrin) where there are no defenses and deploy mechs once in a blue or yellow zone. Due to the dependency of such larges areas on individual and lightly defended locations (I mean come on, Goddard fell to a laughable number of individuals, even if you use gameplay mechanics to enhance their numbers and ignore the all the writing) I can’t imagine the clans would have too terribly much of a difficult time dealing with it with them on a large scale with a few mechs.

Furthermore, the systems only appear to work for objects in orbit… because it would have really been useful to have one during the invasion of London by the Scrin.

And using the destruction of the Philadelphia as some form of benchmark when it comes to the effectiveness of the ASAT grid is ludicrous. The entire ASAT grid was down, you yourself did that in the mission before the space station is nuked.

No, it is quite a good example because there was no backup system at all in place, including on the Philadelphia herself. Frankly, the MOMENT Goddard comes under attack back up systems should have been activated IMMEDIATELY. The GDI demonstrated a level of incompetence here that makes their previous mistake of getting rid of 60% of their armed forces tell us that hey, at least they are consistent in their stupidity. The USA in modern times employs numerous anti missile systems and back up systems the world over, often supported by aircraft, satellite tracking, and numerous other technologies (even laser based weapons which are in use on the field). Guess what... it all doesn't run through NORAD... they are independently networked technologies that do not have a, 'if one fails they all fail' system in place, unlike the GDI. You could argue, "hey, it was only for the east coast," but even that is pathetic.

That they use lasers and railguns isn't as important as quantifying the weapons and their strength. If you simply said that lasers are all equal, then by extension it'd also mean that normal weaponry like a pistol and a 120mm tank cannon, is also equally powerful.

I was making a point that their soldiers are comparable in fire power, or at least I was willing to concede the point since it is a non issue since mechs will be the primary attack force... However, if you really believe their common soldier is superior to the clans then I will end that right now.

The Clan Employs the Elementals.

Elmentals are genetically engineered and bred from only the strongest of the strong. They are without equal in infantry combat in the entire battletech universe. Most notable about them is their mobility, which is extremely high with the addition of jump backs. Furthermore, many employ the modular Omni technologies that allow them to be quickly repaired.

Their mobility is considered extremely high as they are not impeded by many problems other infantry would be. Their power suits allow them to go into water, space, and air… jumping over cliffs, rivers, and even city buildings. These are COMMON infantry btw where as the GDI rail gun infantry, the closest counterpart, is not.

Mobility advantage for infantry: Clan

Elemental Armor is described as such: Clan Elemental Battle Armor generally mounts one primary and one secondary weapon, plus a detachable SRM-2 pack. If two missiles are fired, the trooper may aim them at the same target or at two different targets that both lie within the firer's forward 90-degree firing arc. The launcher holds a total of four missiles. Once the missiles have been expended the launcher may be jettisoned, improving mobility. The suit is also equipped with a strong manipulative claw that adds to the melee attack damage as well as to climbing the target 'Mech. The modular weapon mount may accommodate a variety of heavy weapons, including a Small Laser, Flamer, Machine Gun, Heavy Machine Gun, ER Micro Laser, or a Micro Pulse Laser. The anti-personnel weapon mount carries a projectile weapon that is effective against unarmored targets, such as a sub-machine gun.

Versatility advantage: Clan, because frankly every unit in the C&C universe is trained and tailored to one – three weapons at most.

Also a note here: These lasers are considered a serious danger… but more so is the fact that there are Elemental suits DEDICATED to the use of heavier mech based weaponry, like medium lasers. This means they are fielding tank equivalent weaponry in more than just their missiles and Micro Pulse Lasers (which is a tank anti infantry weapon).

Next up is Armor:
The Elemental armor is able to withstand direct hits from mech based weapons (equivalent to modern tanks easily) and leave the soldier alive and fighting (although he will most likely pull out for repairs).

GDI and NOD both are very much susceptible to extremely weak lasers or rail guns (with nod cyborgs having catastrophic reactions to them resulting in their sudden destruction via explosion). Their armor can be penetrated by tiberium in a short amount of time and can even have crystals thrown through it.

More telling is their armored bases do not seem any better off. The previously mentioned cyborgs use a decidedly small scale impact to cuase the total destruction of base defenses. I say small scale due to limited heat effects witnessed and subsequently because they have similar small explosive effects. At first I wished to attribute the destruction of the defenses to the effectiveness of the weapons when I remembered the video of the MMKII hitting a nod buggy with its rail gun and merely causing it to spin a bit. This rail gun is the most powerful mounted weapon of any C&C vehical, and supposedly the new mammoth is equipped with two of these ‘impressive’ weapons… Still, I’ll quantify this by saying that MKII utilizes numerous sizes of ammunition based on another destruction scene of a gate… since it is that or we’d have to just declare that all armor in C&C is worthless, and frankly I’m not willing to do that.

To digress and quantify: Battlearmor Warriors from battletech take direct hits from tanks and keep on fighting. C&C Cyborg tiberium enhanced Soldiers can not withstand one direct hit from a small railgun/laser. Battlearmor can also take glancing blows from 200MM cannons, PPCs and Gauss rifles, leaving the soldier alive enough to flee the field (it should be noted that this is considered a rare lucky event… and often the soldier in question was severely injured. 99/100 times the soldier dies, statistically speaking of course).

In short: Battle armor wins the armor contest since they are able to take direct hits from modern tank level weaponry and keep on trucking. Think Iron Man.

Something a little more substantial when it comes to quantification would be nice. And it’s not like the entire clan is composed of Battlemechs, they use elementals, tanks and an airforce as well. Though these might be more limited due to the focus on mechs.

I just gave you the point that their rail guns will be effective and you didn’t take it? Worse yet, you want me to quantify YOUR sides weaponry after willingly giving up that point!? WTF? Well fine, I take back the concession since the best evidence of rail gun use in the whole of C&C is against two cyborgs (decidedly low impact) and the previous MMKII example of it hitting the buggy and NOT destroying it. You now need to find a good example of it working on something decidedly quantifiable that makes the entire, “I can barely harm the weakest vehicle in the game,” a bit less terrible for C&C… I believe you will find that very difficult utilizing only the fluff and novels…

Or you can just accept my previous assertion that they are of equivalent strength and caliber… because I assure you there is about 90% more fluff and novels from battletech that will prove you wrong on this issue and I’m the one being nice here by not pressing it. I’m pulling a punch here because I LIKE C&C and would rather them not get stomped on by just Clan infantry when Clan Jade Falcon pulls out their light gauss rifles mounted on Elementals… or the King David model, often used in defenses. Frankly, I’m hopping you’ll accept it so we can move on to the actual grit of the battle, mechs vs the tanks.

The Mammoth tank mounts cannons far larger then the Titan ever did. And even in C&C3 the GDI is using mechs, in the form of that artillery mech (the name escapes me at the moment), and NOD still uses guardians.

Okay, now I’m not taking you seriously anymore. The Mammoth 27 mounts a
150-mm duel cannon turrent. The Titan mounts 120 mm cannon. This is not FAR larger… more importantly… the Juggernaunt units only sport a 200-mm cannon and are stationary when they do so. The largest autocannons on mechs are 200 mm and they still are achieving significant superior mobility… and survive direct hits from these weapons, btw. Furthermore, these are common place, not high end tech tree weapons.

The heavy weapon support that they need is similar to an Iowa class battleship… and I’m not kidding. You’re going to need those 400 mm guns to stop these mechs.

But, the real reason I’m not taking you seriously is that the Nod Mech is laughable in many respects. Let me list them:

Can not move backward.
Vulnerable to air attacks
Inefficient against infantry without flamethrower due to infantry mobility.
Needs to turn its entire body to bring its weapons to bear.
Expensive in the early stages of war (when it would be needed most)
Slow by battletech standards (although granted, in C&C, it is extremely fast compared to all other mech units that are not scrin).
Commando Units are the bane of all the Sensory Pilots of the Avatar as they will plant bombs to destroy them… this is a common practice amongst ALL infantry in battletech universe as it is the easiest way to destroy mechs… that means even the grunts learn how to do it. But hey, at least the mech is 10m high… that puts it in the nice ‘slow mid range gets shot to pieces’ mech category.
Nontheless, I’ll concede this point, it has similar salvage capability as they can be brought back online after the battle.

Specific numbers like 5% without any backup or support is not exactly something I relish.

You’re kidding right? The clans military comprises almost 100% of its TOTAL POPULATION. This is a population in the BILLIONS. Clan wolf ALONE supports a population of 101,849,000. I gave you the 5% number assuming you’d understand how BADLY OUTNUMBERED earth is but I was clearly wrong about your understanding of the battletech clan universe.

I doubt that. Artillery, air-strikes, nuclear strikes etc should deal with them just fine. Depending on the magnitude of fire, of course. More exotic stuff like EMP weaponry (which even civilians have access too) should do fine, as well.

I’ve debunked the artillery which is stationary and is the only ground unit to have any weapons matching clan auto-cannons. Nuclear strikes would NOT be endorsed by GDI and would end their alliance, furthermore mechs were confirmed to be hardwired against the effects of EMP during the secession wars. Last but not least the effects of a nuke taking out, at best, 5-10 mechs (who subsequently blow up taking out a large area as well) would destroy their OWN war effort from a combination of all out, etc.

But hey, while they’re on it, lets just break out the tiberium bomb and wipe out Europe with GDI hitting it with an Ion Cannon… that’ll teach those clanners to ever touch earth… what little is left of it.

I’m sorry, but they didn’t nuke the scrin who had literally wiped cities off the map… they aren’t going to nuke clanners who are trying to merely capture them… and they denounced the act of nuking every time nod ever did it. Not happening.

I don’t think you realize how badly out gunned and out numbered C&C earth is… only 20% of Earth is consider HABITABLE by modern standards, with 30% being totally uninhabitable by carbon based life. This is a major factor…. They have no space forces to strike back, no way to defend against the assault… if they are just as unprepared for the clan invasion as they were for nods attack on Goddard or the scrin then this war is over before it starts…

Or do you honestly believe that they will magically pull a silver bullet out of their ass and save the day? Here is a run down per the original post of the way the battle goes.





First: Deal with the orbital weapons platforms around the planet.

Not only is this laughably easy, but it should be done within the first day of battle. Philadelphia and a large amount of GDI leadership is gone and dead… the ion cannons are dead in the water and unable to assist, and slowly being dismantled, captured, or just destroyed. Drop ships are invading over the red zones and moving into blue zones.

2. Conquer all the blue zones on earth with as little collateral damage as possible.

GDI being totally unprepared for a war, per the actual story arc of the third tiberium war, has no way to stop an ORGANIZED invasion. Major command sectors fall (Goddard, DC, London) and soon the GDI are running scared, desperate to get the juggernauts and ships where they need to be in order to mount an effective resistance.

3. Weed out the NOD resistance in the yellow zones.
Nod forces will take a while to weed out as they should be smart enough to hide from this entire debacle caused by GDI incompetence. When they actually finally begin to offer some sort of resistance you can expect temple prime to fall and the leadership destroyed… no Ion Cannons to summon the Scrin, no secretive, “I escaped the destruction of Europe.” Just mechs now striking with relatively impunity when ever nod is detected… Between encroaching tiberium and mech forces governing the blue zones with an iron fist Nod will be hard pressed just to hold the line… Assuming they join GDI in the full military effort they fall fast and hard as slowly their bases are discovered and their forces annihilated. Since any non tier three unit will simply be stomped on by mechs as an effective means of destroying them only those mammoths and avatars will be fighting this by the end… and they will be hard pressed to keep production high enough to deal with clans… who have a lot of back ups in orbit, just waiting to be called down.

[l33telboi]

Please give me proof for the ASAT weapons being in space other than the Ion Cannons… because last I heard and read the other two ASAT networked weapons were kinetic kill missiles and lasers… which will be very ineffective against extremely armored drop ships.

The kinetic-kill and laser systems are the other weapons in space besides the ion cannons. But if you want the fluff text on the whole thing:

Excerpt from "Eyes Only" Inner Circle Intelligence Report

The Inner Circle has long feared GDI's dominance of space. GDI's orbital weapons platforms, command & control stations, and spy satellites are protected by a powerful anti-missile system that seemed invulnerable and invincible.

This orbital necklace of death is based on a network of space-based kinetickill weapons, lasers, and even the Ion Cannons themselves - used to intercept and destroy incoming missiles. GDI space assets have been out of reach of the Brotherhood for years, leading to a sense that the balance of power in a decades-long struggle would eventually tip decisively against the Brotherhood.

But our operatives discovered a flaw in the GDI system: For some unfathomable reason, GDI put the crews and control centers for their Ion Cannons and their A-SAT system on the ground. Even better, the critical personnel and equipment are concentrated in a single facility in the northeastern Blue Zone. A well-planned surprise strike on Goddard Space Center could take all of GDI's Ion Cannons and their entire A-SAT system offline, giving the Brotherhood days and possibly weeks to conduct combat operations across the planet unhindered by space-based weapons and prying eyes.

As a bonus, the primary GDI world command hub is based on board the space station Philadelphia. A missile strike on the Philadelphia immediately after the destruction of the A-SAT control systems could render the entire GDI command and control structure headless and reeling.

Furthermore… The Ion Cannon Network was extremely INEFFECTIVE against an UNARMED Scrin assault of 6 large ships. The network shot down exactly TWO ships just as all the ships broke apart into 39 smaller vessels which proceeded to successfully land on earth. It was laughable to watch when the Ion Cannons TRIED to hold of the scrin, and furthermore you were able to detail a lot about their maneuverability, which was terrible at best. If it came under attack by nimbly moving clan tech fighters it not only wouldn't stand a chance… it would be obliterated.

First, the two relevant cinematics, here's the landing from the Scrin's point of view, and here's the landing from GDI's point of view.

They didn't destroy any of the incoming transports, when hit those transports simply split into several smaller parts. The Scrin do say they took some damage, but that's all. How many ships got hit we don't know, at least two though. As for the maneuverability of the ion cannon defenses, it wasn't quite as bad as you seem to try to make it up as, though I guess that depends on how you define 'bad' and 'good'. They swung around quite rapidly and had (as far as we can see) a 100% hit rate.

EDIT/NOTE: The clan warships seem to have a very good range, however the exact firepower and range figures are hard to detail without utilizing game mechanics, due to a lack of fluff on this area. It should be noted that the Class-20 Naval Autocannons of the Sovetskii Soyuz were considered to have a range long enough to keep other warships at bay in space. This is a smaller clan warship, for the record and comes equipped with 20 fighters standard... you could expect it to be the head of any assault. Due to the slow movement of Ion Cannons into position (their most glaring weakness, as admitted by GDI) and the relative speed of these ships in comparison... there is no shooting war in space... again, it is over before it starts. As GDI fields no heavy space craft that can actually take the war to these ships after the Ion Cannons are down... frankly... I feel sorry for them. Back to the regular post.

When it comes to range, the Ion Cannons aren't too shabby. From the cinematics we can see that they are probably something like half a planetary diameter away from Earth, so that's ~6,000km. And at these ranges they perform pinpoint strikes. They pretty much have to, unless GDI wants to see a sharp decrease in popularity. They’re even capable of hitting targets as small as temple prime in Sarajevo.

Firepower wise they are on the same level as tactical nuclear weapons. There's even a quote in the Tiberium Wars novel that could elaborate on the yield involved. Though unfortunately my... version... of that novel doesn't come equipped with a search function. The quote was something like "the ion cannon could keep the lights on in the entire western hemisphere for x months/weeks". Though that's from memory, so take it as you will.

The ASAT weapons are furthermore networked in large gigantic sectors that over see vast stretches of the earth (the dumbest thing I've ever seen), and furthermore no back up system is in place. Even worse the entire network is governed at Goddard Maryland.
Even assuming a network designed to shoot down lightly armored missiles and aircraft, which is its dedicated purpose for existing, can harm space based mechs, it is not a system that was able to do ANYTHING to the Scrin assault forces who over ran numerous cities shortly there after, with vast airforces.

The A-SAT weapons are designed to engage things that threaten the ion cannon and space station network, so they're not going to be able to target vehicles inside the atmosphere. This is at least, never implied. Well, with one exception, in Kane's Wrath (the expansion) GDI makes use of the kinetic kill weapons as heavy artillery bombardment stuff. It's not accurate by any stretch of the word. Inside the atmosphere the air will quite naturally ablate the lasers and affect the trajectory of the kinetic slugs.

And I doubt they are designed to shoot down only lightly armored missiles and stuff. Because if you were NOD, then you'd simply create a heavily armored missile and that's that. I mean, take a look at the missile they do send up into space. It's not exactly small by any stretch of the word.

Frankly, all a drop ship would have to do is fly over a red zone (like the scrin) where there are no defenses and deploy mechs once in a blue or yellow zone. Due to the dependency of such larges areas on individual and lightly defended locations (I mean come on, Goddard fell to a laughable number of individuals, even if you use gameplay mechanics to enhance their numbers and ignore the all the writing) I can’t imagine the clans would have too terribly much of a difficult time dealing with it with them on a large scale with a few mechs.

Furthermore, the systems only appear to work for objects in orbit… because it would have really been useful to have one during the invasion of London by the Scrin.

There's no indication that there are 'holes' in the defense, as far as I know. Given how far away these things orbit from earth, and their range, it's seems like a rather strange theory to me that there is indeed holes. The ion cannons should have perfect coverage.

No, it is quite a good example because there was no backup system at all in place, including on the Philadelphia herself. Frankly, the MOMENT Goddard comes under attack back up systems should have been activated IMMEDIATELY. The GDI demonstrated a level of incompetence here that makes their previous mistake of getting rid of 60% of their armed forces tell us that hey, at least they are consistent in their stupidity. The USA in modern times employs numerous anti missile systems and back up systems the world over, often supported by aircraft, satellite tracking, and numerous other technologies (even laser based weapons which are in use on the field). Guess what... it all doesn't run through NORAD... they are independently networked technologies that do not have a, 'if one fails they all fail' system in place, unlike the GDI. You could argue, "hey, it was only for the east coast," but even that is pathetic.

Well there was some form of backup, because the cannons do come back online after a while. But yes, it's quite clear that putting all the eggs in one basket in this case was a very bad idea. But will this help the clans? I doubt it. They'd have to know about this weakness in order to exploit it. And even if they knew about it, they'd still have to get troops on the ground to attack it. Not to mention that a mech attack is going to have every single GDI asset in the general area defending the place. NOD accomplished the attack through stealth and surprise.

That's all I got time for now, but I'll reply to next posts probably later on today.

[Trinoya]

I was not aware of the inner circle intelligence report. However, the point vs the lasers and the kinetic kill weapons being largely ineffective will stand. I will assume that both technologies are based upon the absolutely strongest laser and kinetic tech that GDI (or nod) has... While no one will fool themselves into believing that kinetic weapons are useful in space combat for anything other than lightly armored targets (that is, after all, WHY they are utilized for space combat) we will focus on the much more powerful laser systems.

If NOD lasers (the most advance on earth) are any indication the range limitations are 2-3 miles per cinematic and flavor. Even assuming the most powerful and fast firing laser systems available... even giving them every advantage in the world based on NOD/GDI technology... we are still left with the simple problem that these lasers are no way near equivilent to the capital ship weaponry seen in battle tech.

The ION cannons have no ability to quickly traverse the planet, and their turn rate took them around 2 seconds. Both of these factors mean a standard clan warship can simply jump in a grouping of ion cannons (or to a location without them) and begin operations, as the Ion Cannons must first charge, where as their autocannons and missiles do not.

Moving on to the next point. The 100% hit rate while 'impressive' is for a total of two shots and the scrin did not move to avoid. We do have confirmed that of the initial vessels that approached 39 not only landed on the planet but were able to cause great damage when they got there.

I also have no doubt on an Ion Cannons fire power, I just doubt their usefulness in a sudden and unexpected strike... which, as we know from the third tiberium war, the GDI were totally unprepared for... especially from space.

The A-SAT weapons are designed to engage things that threaten the ion cannon and space station network, so they're not going to be able to target vehicles inside the atmosphere.

This is BS. The entire idea of the A-SAT weapons is to intercept nod vehicles and munitions before they have a chance to enter the outter atmosphere where they could just detonate themselves and become deadly debris.

And I doubt they are designed to shoot down only lightly armored missiles and stuff. Because if you were NOD, then you'd simply create a heavily armored missile and that's that. I mean, take a look at the missile they do send up into space. It's not exactly small by any stretch of the word.

You entirely forget that it takes a lot of effort to send something into space. It's impractical to create a heavily armored missile. Furthermore, the nod missile seems no larger than a S-Five. Futhermore, Kinetic Kill systems and Lasers are in use to day and are specifically designed to kill lightly armored fast moving targets or satellites. That is their inherent military function.

There's no indication that there are 'holes' in the defense, as far as I know. Given how far away these things orbit from earth, and their range, it's seems like a rather strange theory to me that there is indeed holes. The ion cannons should have perfect coverage.

It was confirmed time and time again that the reason some missions are not, "just blow them up with an Ion Cannon strike" is specifically because the Ion Cannons are not in the area. GDI does not have a perfect coverage system after the 2nd tiberium war because they downgraded 60% of their military assets... its for the same reason that they didn't build an orbital operations network center to control their entire defense system.

Well there was some form of backup, because the cannons do come back online after a while.

Actually the second system was jurryrigged and re-networked by the fast thinking of many GDI soldiers and operatives. There was no back up system... they rebuilt the entire thing from scratch and THEN decentralized it across the earth.

I will give them this, it is impressive that they rebuilt their full A-SAT operations system in such a short time span, but still, they had to rebuild it.


Looking through our posts it seems that you and I have to come to terms on two issues to truly decide this battle:

First: We must decide the outcome of the space battle... You've already cited you believe clan forces, with enough fighters, can overwhelm the GDI defenses. I maintain that they will out maneuver them for victory instead.

Second: We both can agree that the forces are of sufficient power to be a threat to one another. However, I maintain that the GDI and NOD high end technology is regarded as 'common place' amongst the clans. 200mm cannons on 70kmph moving mechs, with 10 ppcs on a mech able to do 50kmph... it does seem a little overwhelming. Remember, the best nod weapon, the Avatar, was so expensive and rare that Kain sent only three of them to defend DC.... it would be nothing to send 50 or 60 warhawks instead...

I believe we should focus on these issues first and move on to later issues as they arise...

[l33telboi]

Second part of the reply I mentioned earlier.

I was making a point that their soldiers are comparable in fire power, or at least I was willing to concede the point since it is a non issue since mechs will be the primary attack force... However, if you really believe their common soldier is superior to the clans then I will end that right now.

The Clan Employs the Elementals.

Elmentals are genetically engineered and bred from only the strongest of the strong. They are without equal in infantry combat in the entire battletech universe. Most notable about them is their mobility, which is extremely high with the addition of jump backs. Furthermore, many employ the modular Omni technologies that allow them to be quickly repaired.

Their mobility is considered extremely high as they are not impeded by many problems other infantry would be. Their power suits allow them to go into water, space, and air… jumping over cliffs, rivers, and even city buildings. These are COMMON infantry btw where as the GDI rail gun infantry, the closest counterpart, is not.

Mobility advantage for infantry: Clan

Elemental Armor is described as such: Clan Elemental Battle Armor generally mounts one primary and one secondary weapon, plus a detachable SRM-2 pack. If two missiles are fired, the trooper may aim them at the same target or at two different targets that both lie within the firer's forward 90-degree firing arc. The launcher holds a total of four missiles. Once the missiles have been expended the launcher may be jettisoned, improving mobility. The suit is also equipped with a strong manipulative claw that adds to the melee attack damage as well as to climbing the target 'Mech. The modular weapon mount may accommodate a variety of heavy weapons, including a Small Laser, Flamer, Machine Gun, Heavy Machine Gun, ER Micro Laser, or a Micro Pulse Laser. The anti-personnel weapon mount carries a projectile weapon that is effective against unarmored targets, such as a sub-machine gun.

Versatility advantage: Clan, because frankly every unit in the C&C universe is trained and tailored to one – three weapons at most.

Also a note here: These lasers are considered a serious danger… but more so is the fact that there are Elemental suits DEDICATED to the use of heavier mech based weaponry, like medium lasers. This means they are fielding tank equivalent weaponry in more than just their missiles and Micro Pulse Lasers (which is a tank anti infantry weapon).

I always thought that Elementals were like the heavy infantry of the BTech verse, though apparently this isn't the case. I'm in the middle of reading "Ghost War" at the moment and even police forces there are using power armor.

And while power armored soldiers isn't exactly the staple of either GDI or NOD, it doesn't mean the Elementals are untouchable. Again, there's been no quantification on either side here, so it's difficult to predict exactly how these soldiers compare, but the Zone Trooper sounds virtually identical to a clan elemental. They wear power armor that provides them with complete shielding from the environment, they are jump capable and they carry a heavy rail rifle.

But apart from this, C&C forces still employ infantry that have the weaponry to take down a clan elemental. Rocket launcher squads and grenade thrower squads are the perfect example of this. For those that don't know, a grenade thrower might sound fairly mundane, but in the case of C&C we're talking about a guy throwing a football sized (and shaped) grenade that has it's own thrusters and semi-intelligent guidance system on it.

Yes, one for one a clan elemental is superior. But that does not make him invulnerable. And that's the point of this thread. I asked how big a force the clan needs to take earth. I never argued that Earth could withstand the entire assault on its own.

So what about numbers, for instance? Infantry on the C&C side are a dime in a dozen when it comes to the force disposition.

Next up is Armor:
The Elemental armor is able to withstand direct hits from mech based weapons (equivalent to modern tanks easily) and leave the soldier alive and fighting (although he will most likely pull out for repairs).

GDI and NOD both are very much susceptible to extremely weak lasers or rail guns (with nod cyborgs having catastrophic reactions to them resulting in their sudden destruction via explosion). Their armor can be penetrated by tiberium in a short amount of time and can even have crystals thrown through it.

While I doubt the 'extremely weak lasers or rail guns' part of that statement, given that it was accompanied by no evidence of any sort. A C&C2 era cyborg is still an infantry unit, though cybernetically enhanced. You might also want to give whatever info you have on the clan elemental surviving mech based weapons so it can be quantified.

As for Tiberium, there is nothing that can withstand it, quite literally. It's gray goo (yet green) for lack of a better term. It converts whatever it comes into contact with into more Tiberium.

More telling is their armored bases do not seem any better off. The previously mentioned cyborgs use a decidedly small scale impact to cuase the total destruction of base defenses. I say small scale due to limited heat effects witnessed and subsequently because they have similar small explosive effects. At first I wished to attribute the destruction of the defenses to the effectiveness of the weapons when I remembered the video of the MMKII hitting a nod buggy with its rail gun and merely causing it to spin a bit.

This rail gun is the most powerful mounted weapon of any C&C vehical, and supposedly the new mammoth is equipped with two of these ‘impressive’ weapons… Still, I’ll quantify this by saying that MKII utilizes numerous sizes of ammunition based on another destruction scene of a gate… since it is that or we’d have to just declare that all armor in C&C is worthless, and frankly I’m not willing to do that.

First off, all these examples seem to be from C&C2, which is not being argued in this thread. No doubt you could use it as a rough gauge, but things have vastly improved in C&C3, military-wise. Of course, I'd like to see whatever cinematics you're referring too here, because I never played C&C2 all that much. I frankly have idea what you're talking about.

Now then, to give you some idea on what a cyborg from C&C3 is capable of (used in Kane's Wrath specifically). There are two models, the awakened and the enlightened. The former is a weaker version of the latter and mounts an area effect EMP weapon as well as an arm mounted slughtrower of some sort. No details. But it's implied that the unit is capable of going toe to toe with both infantry and vehicles. The latter is the heavier version of the two. Mounting a particle accelerator on one hand and an EMP weapon on the other. This one is said, in fluff text, to be capable of taking multiple mammoth tank rounds without dying. Though this is a curiously high-end feat considering they're basically infantry sized, it does mesh somewhat well considering Kane though these units to be nearly the end-all to warfare.

To digress and quantify: Battlearmor Warriors from battletech take direct hits from tanks and keep on fighting. C&C Cyborg tiberium enhanced Soldiers can not withstand one direct hit from a small railgun/laser.

This assumption of yours is directly contradicted by the intel entry statement about an enlightened taking mammoth tank rounds.

Battlearmor can also take glancing blows from 200MM cannons, PPCs and Gauss rifles, leaving the soldier alive enough to flee the field (it should be noted that this is considered a rare lucky event… and often the soldier in question was severely injured. 99/100 times the soldier dies, statistically speaking of course).

I'd need sources on this. Because I find it hard to believe that a PPC that most of the times completely destroys vehicles would somehow be this ineffective against infantry. Same goes for gauss rifles, they're said (this I've gathered from previous debates) to basically destroy light mechs with one shot. But you're saying that infantry sized units can take more punishment.

Like I said, sources on this would be nice.

I just gave you the point that their rail guns will be effective and you didn’t take it? Worse yet, you want me to quantify YOUR sides weaponry after willingly giving up that point!?

I have no side. I realize that this might be hard for someone like you to understand because the overzealous always see everyone who's not specifically on their side as someone who's opposing them. The neutral become the enemies. But what can one do.

Not to mention that your quantification thus far has been quite inadequate. You haven't even cited any sources or linked to anything that mentions the things you use as quantification.

WTF? Well fine, I take back the concession since the best evidence of rail gun use in the whole of C&C is against two cyborgs (decidedly low impact) and the previous MMKII example of it hitting the buggy and NOT destroying it. You now need to find a good example of it working on something decidedly quantifiable that makes the entire, “I can barely harm the weakest vehicle in the game,” a bit less terrible for C&C… I believe you will find that very difficult utilizing only the fluff and novels…

Figures could easily be extrapolated from the tank barrel calibers used when compared to our own. At least to get minimum figures. The basic MBT of the GDI for instance mounts a 150mm normal cannon. It's not said to be a firing SABOTs, as far as I know, though the ammo is "armor-piercing" according to the fluff. Now the upgraded cannon is said to be a railgun version of this turret. And railguns exist to propel slugs faster then normal chemically propelled slugs. Quite likely you're looking at a full-caliber slug traveling around hypersonic velocities.

And that's far from their stronger vehicles.

Or you can just accept my previous assertion that they are of equivalent strength and caliber… because I assure you there is about 90% more fluff and novels from battletech that will prove you wrong on this issue and I’m the one being nice here by not pressing it. I’m pulling a punch here because I LIKE C&C and would rather them not get stomped on by just Clan infantry when Clan Jade Falcon pulls out their light gauss rifles mounted on Elementals… or the King David model, often used in defenses. Frankly, I’m hopping you’ll accept it so we can move on to the actual grit of the battle, mechs vs the tanks.

What sort of nonsense is this? I'm not here championing one side like you quite erroneously seem to think. And even if I were I wouldn't accept handwaved figures just because it 'helps my side'. We quantify the weapons and that's that. All this 'let's assume they're equal' without any other reasoning except 'I'm being nice' is idiotic.

Okay, now I’m not taking you seriously anymore. The Mammoth 27 mounts a 150-mm duel cannon turrent. The Titan mounts 120 mm cannon. This is not FAR larger… more importantly… the Juggernaunt units only sport a 200-mm cannon and are stationary when they do so.

Correct on the Mammoth MKIII and Titan. Though I feel the need to point out that both can upgrade the weapons to railguns. The Juggernaut however, has three 200mm cannons. Not one.

The largest autocannons on mechs are 200 mm and they still are achieving significant superior mobility… and survive direct hits from these weapons, btw. Furthermore, these are common place, not high end tech tree weapons.

The heavy weapon support that they need is similar to an Iowa class battleship… and I’m not kidding. You’re going to need those 400 mm guns to stop these mechs.

Again, you've given nothing to back this statement up.

But, the real reason I’m not taking you seriously is that the Nod Mech is laughable in many respects. Let me list them:

Can not move backward.

It moves just like a human would.

Vulnerable to air attacks

True enough.

Inefficient against infantry without flamethrower due to infantry mobility.

I very much doubt that.

Needs to turn its entire body to bring its weapons to bear.

No, the weapons are mounted on arms, and as the artwork shows, those arms work very much like our own:

Expensive in the early stages of war (when it would be needed most)

This happens during the Scrin Invasion. That's quite late in the war between GDI and NOD.

Slow by battletech standards (although granted, in C&C, it is extremely fast compared to all other mech units that are not scrin).

True enough.

Commando Units are the bane of all the Sensory Pilots of the Avatar as they will plant bombs to destroy them… this is a common practice amongst ALL infantry in battletech universe as it is the easiest way to destroy mechs… that means even the grunts learn how to do it. But hey, at least the mech is 10m high… that puts it in the nice ‘slow mid range gets shot to pieces’ mech category.

For a commando squad to even get close they'd need to not be shot into pieces. Which an Avatar is quite capable of doing, even without the flamethrower add-on. Not only that, but NOD and GDI both employ combined arms tactics quite regularly, which means that NOD walkers aren't going to be running around on their own on the field.

You’re kidding right? The clans military comprises almost 100% of its TOTAL POPULATION. This is a population in the BILLIONS. Clan wolf ALONE supports a population of 101,849,000. I gave you the 5% number assuming you’d understand how BADLY OUTNUMBERED earth is but I was clearly wrong about your understanding of the battletech clan universe.

No, I'm not kidding. A very specific number needs some very specific evidence for it. And this is true both whether your figure is too high or too low. This is just basic debating fact. Pulling numbers from nowhere is ridiculous... to put it mildly.

I’ve debunked the artillery which is stationary and is the only ground unit to have any weapons matching clan auto-cannons.

Caliber isn't everything, I'm afraid (even if clan auto-cannons are really 200mm in caliber). The mere fact that a mech the size of a Juggernaut needs to brace to not fall over when it shoots should tell you something. Those rounds pack enough momentum to kick a mech over, unless it's bracing.

And the Juggernauts isn't the only form of artillery out there either.

Nuclear strikes would NOT be endorsed by GDI and would end their alliance furthermore mechs were confirmed to be hardwired against the effects of EMP during the secession wars. Last but not least the effects of a nuke taking out, at best, 5-10 mechs (who subsequently blow up taking out a large area as well) would destroy their OWN war effort from a combination of all out, etc.

I doubt there will be an alliance. Take a look at the scenario, what are the Clans going to do first? Invade the blue-zones, how do you think NOD will respond? By sitting back and watching the two tear themselves to pieces, of course. NOD hardly thinks highly of GDIs wishes when it comes to nukes, this should be obvious because NOD uses nukes against GDI.

And like I said, vehicles hardwired against EMP is just as likely for the C&C verse. It's just that these EMP weapons don't look or act anything like our modern stuff. They're like directed energy beams in some cases.

But hey, while they’re on it, lets just break out the tiberium bomb and wipe out Europe with GDI hitting it with an Ion Cannon… that’ll teach those clanners to ever touch earth… what little is left of it.

It is a distinct possibility that the liquid tiberium bomb will be used before the end. The GDI most certainly considered using it against the Scrin (and did use it, depending on the players choises).

I’m sorry, but they didn’t nuke the scrin who had literally wiped cities off the map… they aren’t going to nuke clanners who are trying to merely capture them… and they denounced the act of nuking every time nod ever did it. Not happening.

NOD is hardly going to have problems with nuking blue-zones if those are already gone. I'm guessing they didn't do it in the game (or did they?) because they saw no reason wasting nukes on two enemies fighting each other. And if the clanners are in the yellow zones, well then there's just a bunch of nothing for miles around. Avoiding collateral damage there (even if they cared about stuff like that) is going to be dirt easy.

I don’t think you realize how badly out gunned and out numbered C&C earth is… only 20% of Earth is consider HABITABLE by modern standards, with 30% being totally uninhabitable by carbon based life. This is a major factor…. They have no space forces to strike back, no way to defend against the assault… if they are just as unprepared for the clan invasion as they were for nods attack on Goddard or the scrin then this war is over before it starts…

20% of earth is covered in blue zones. These zones are basically sprawling metropolises and pristine cities. The yellow zones are bad, it's like a bombed out third world nation. Nevertheless, people do live there, and NOD makes yellow sites their own. The red zones are hardly ventured into, and with good reason.

And even if the orbital forces are wiped out. NOD does still have weapons that go from surface to orbit. Including nuclear weapons.

First: Deal with the orbital weapons platforms around the planet.

Not only is this laughably easy, but it should be done within the first day of battle. Philadelphia and a large amount of GDI leadership is gone and dead… the ion cannons are dead in the water and unable to assist, and slowly being dismantled, captured, or just destroyed. Drop ships are invading over the red zones and moving into blue zones.

The ion cannons are dead in the water? Then how come they were able to attack the Scrin? How are you even able to use them in the game?

2. Conquer all the blue zones on earth with as little collateral damage as possible.

GDI being totally unprepared for a war, per the actual story arc of the third tiberium war, has no way to stop an ORGANIZED invasion. Major command sectors fall (Goddard, DC, London) and soon the GDI are running scared, desperate to get the juggernauts and ships where they need to be in order to mount an effective resistance.

They have been at war for quite some time now. This attack happens instead of the Scrin invasion. By this point in time GDI is fully mobilized.

[Trinoya]

Please forgive the size of this post.

I always thought that Elementals were like the heavy infantry of the BTech verse, though apparently this isn't the case. I'm in the middle of reading "Ghost War" at the moment and even police forces there are using power armor.

First and foremost, I hope you enjoy Ghost War. ^_^

Second: I must address a fact I missed earlier in that you are replacing the scrin with the forces of the Clans. This is quite different and the rest of my posts will now reflect this.

And while power armored soldiers isn't exactly the staple of either GDI or NOD, it doesn't mean the Elementals are untouchable. Again, there's been no quantification on either side here, so it's difficult to predict exactly how these soldiers compare, but the Zone Trooper sounds virtually identical to a clan elemental. They wear power armor that provides them with complete shielding from the environment, they are jump capable and they carry a heavy rail rifle.

Actually, we do have some quantification. The Elemental powersuit is capable of taking hits from modern day tank weapons. Furthermore, battlearmor has endured glancing blows from the heaviest weapons in the BT universe (on the mech scale anyway) and lived to tell the tale. Again, I won't say this is the rule, as it's obvious it isn't... but it is telling that an Elemental has a chance (statistically speaking) to survive a direct hit from a PPC.

Nonetheless, I'm willing to give a point for a point here in regards to the GDI Zone Trooper. They are also observed as taking glancing blows from pretty heavy weapons... Though at the end of the day the Elemental does have significant superior air mobility in many of the designs (able to bridge far greater distances).

But again, it is important to remember that the GDI zone trooper is the height of technology for GDI and is the combination of the wolverine and the mobius suit. It is expensive and high end to say the least... The cost to train and equip one zone trooper could pay for an entire rifleman squad.

Yes, one for one a clan elemental is superior. But that does not make him invulnerable. And that's the point of this thread. I asked how big a force the clan needs to take earth. I never argued that Earth could withstand the entire assault on its own.

Now this is a point I clearly missed, since it wasn’t addressed in the first post… the first post said that the clans won’t throw their full might at earth… As such, I’ve assumed, from the beginning, that one clan would be enough (clan wolf for that matter) and that case I maintain still, one clan should be more than sufficient... especially if GDI is under the command of Director Boyle.

So what about numbers, for instance? Infantry on the C&C side are a dime in a dozen when it comes to the force disposition.

While infantry is a dime a dozen... it is nowhere near as 'infinite' as the games would lead us to believe, and only commandos are truly trained for mech assault. Furthermore, Remember, GDI is at 40% (even less since the war has started), of its PEAK military numbers during the second tiberium war. Nod is at this point quite split, with Kain presumed to be dead, Europe is suffering from deadly radiation levels and has just lost millions of lives... in fact, the entire earth is suffering from the fall out effects to a degree, just from visuals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WakZor3B ... re=related), though we have no reason to assume, per the news broadcast, that any place other than eastern europe was truly devastated.

While I doubt the 'extremely weak lasers or rail guns' part of that statement, given that it was accompanied by no evidence of any sort. A C&C2 era cyborg is still an infantry unit, though cybernetic ally enhanced. You might also want to give whatever info you have on the clan elemental surviving mech based weapons so it can be quantified.

I refer to this instance of a GDI trooper firing on Nod cyborgs: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7BdzkSgOiY

I've assumed it is a laser, since that means higher end firepower... as a rail gun would have just ripped the cyborgs in half... furthermore, the secondary explosions come from within the cyborgs themselves, not the initial impact. Still, we can’t be sure, since GDI rail guns have unusual visual effects to say the least…

As for elementals surviving mech based weaponry: It appears I've misstated the actual battlearmor in use here now that I look over my material. Field Manual: Draconis Combine references the Kanazuchi being hit by a Mad Cat clan Tech ER PPC, and not just surviving, but returning fire.

Now, you'll forgive me not having the time for the actual math on this, since I'd have to avoid using the game sheet data to calculate 'similar effects' based on damage... the PPC is a weapon capable of reducing a modern day brick, metal, and concrete structure to slag... as JMS said in another thread, it has melted glass across the street from its target. Now while exact quantification here is impossible, it still puts this weapon in the low gigajoule range... somewhere around 1-5 gigajoules allowing for appropriate 'variation' based on the effects of a 'lightning' gun (read: The rules use dice for damage). I'll shoot for low end here for the standardized PPC as 1.5, and for clan tech we shall say 2 gigajoules. I'm not saying these are hard numbers, I'm just giving an approximation based on known effects.

Next: The quantification for the standard Elemental, which is what I utilized originally (though in error, and again I apologize) is not dissimilar, though not as impressive as the Kanazuchi. This refers to different types of elementals (admitedly using the genetically enhanced soldiers) surviving glancing blows from medium autocannons (around 100mm) and statistically speaking from guass rifles (although this is a game mechanic, and does not have the fluff page for it). There is this passage that I was able to find with a little bit of memory and googling:

All the time you’re wearing battle armor, the suit keeps an eye
on your vitals. If you get yourself hurt, this neat medical system
kicks in—hitting you with painkillers and stimulants. It you get
hit real bad, it’ll try to keep you alive until the medics can get to
you. The combination of the two used by the Clanners can keep
even a mortally wounded trooper awake and alert, allowing him
to fight on even when he should be halfway to the Reaper. Bear
that in mind when you face one on the field. The gent who rode
in this Toad fought to the bloody, bitter end, with no less than
three high-caliber AP rounds in the chest.
Armor! Something dear to my heart—and to yours, if you
know what’s good for you. This is half of what battle armor is all
about. Thanks to the wonders of the chassis and super-strong
myomers, battlesuits can carry far tougher armor than anything
you’ll have used before. With this stuff —and a bit of luck—you
can survive BattleMech laser fire, missiles, autocannon shells
and PPC bolts.

Total Warfare Tech Manual

This is what I was able to find... not to be declared dishonest if someone can find a more complete version of it: It DOES state further down (I can't remember how much further, but I believe it was within the same passage even) that common infantry, also if lucky, can take you out with a bolt action rifle with the right shot... so take from this what you will... I regard this passage in context with what the person was trying to say “your armor is awesome, don't be stupid though,” but it does speak volumes of the capabilities of battlearmor as a whole.

As for Tiberium, there is nothing that can withstand it, quite literally. It's gray goo (yet green) for lack of a better term. It converts whatever it comes into contact with into more Tiberium.

While this is not entirely true, I won't nitpick over the obvious few counter examples (IE: Heavy dense metals take longer to convert and can be easily salvaged, hence why vehicles are generally immune). A more important factor here is that tiberium is a problem that EARTH has, not the clans, and a problem that is wiping out the human race.

Furthermore, Tiberium treatment is simple: Heat and sound... both of which are utilized in tiberium refinement and control. Tiberium prevention is also simple: Sound and Cold.

In regards to the englightened: Again, these are high end technologies, extremely costly, and difficult to field and create... I have read the full tech readouts on both them and the awakened and they seem actually very similiar to the old style cyborgs with better armor, less humanity, and of course a better weapon. Unlike old style cyborgs, they are vulnerable to tiberium, a serious design flaw (although admitedly, they were created in Siberia during a time when people were litterally giving up on the temperate parts of the world so this oversight is 'tactically' forgivable).

Of course, I'd like to see whatever cinematics you're referring too

Here are a few.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wlQvZ6TFq1s

Of interesting note here is the rail gun (not the autocannon): Note the rail gun is actually firing upon light vehicles at the beginning (this is the rail gun, NOT the missiles, don’t ask why we can see the bloody thing as a blue ball…) and with a relatively solid impact on a nod buggy merely causes it to spin around (to be fair, I'm sure the crew is dead from snapped necks).

This is of important note since it DOES quantify that this gun HAS to be using different caliber rounds or acceleration for different shots... that or the nod buggy is the most super duper buggy ever made and that is the worst gate ever made.

Another good shot of the MKII http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qwpb4Voe ... re=related

Jugs in action: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAcKw4qi ... re=related

Important to note that jugs here are using 150MM cannons (which are upgraded by C&C3 to 200mm). Their long range while impressive still is outweighed by the high end tech of the unit, the fact it must be stationary to fire, and the fact that mechs have similar equipment and can run at 80kmph.

This assumption of yours is directly contradicted by the intel entry statement about an enlightened taking mammoth tank rounds.

This is in reference to original cyborgs, not the enlightened.

I'd need sources on this. Because I find it hard to believe that a PPC that most of the times completely destroys vehicles would somehow be this ineffective against infantry. Same goes for gauss rifles, they're said (this I've gathered from previous debates) to basically destroy light mechs with one shot. But you're saying that infantry sized units can take more punishment.

Like I said, sources on this would be nice.

The sources are above in this post now. And it is important to note that Battlearmor and Lightmechs, serve two entirely different purposes. Battlearmor is essentially created to allow infantry to fight mechs, while light mechs are generally lightly armored fast moving support units for scouting, networking, and general guard duty.

[/quote]What sort of nonsense is this? I'm not here championing one side like you quite erroneously seem to think. And even if I were I wouldn't accept handwaved figures just because it 'helps my side'. We quantify the weapons and that's that. All this 'let's assume they're equal' without any other reasoning except 'I'm being nice' is idiotic.

It was me being nice: The Heavy Guass rifle in battletech utilizes a 500 pound (1 ton = 4 rounds = 500 pounds per round) slug. Now... utilizing some more fluff and tech manual data in space the effective range of the rifle is 360km (LONG). It travels this distance in exactly one minute... this comes out to something like 19,680 ft per second. On impact this is equivalent to somewhere around 4 gigajoules…

Of second note here, however: Due to the extreme size of this round, it becomes less effective in atmosphere… but even then it is at ranges of 12km.

I freely admit the above math is not 100% accurate, in fact I think it is lower than what it should be.... if someone wants to do the exact kinetic energy this is imparting... by all means.

has three 200mm cannons. Not one.

This I apologize for and is a result of me not proofreading.

In regards to me not backing up the 200mm common battletech weapons...
Technical Readout: 3025
Technical Readout: 3025 Revised
Technical Readout: 3050
BattleTech Master Rules
Field Manual: Federated Suns

Within all of these manuals are examples of heavy autocannons and mechs taking hits from them and surviving. The Atlas ( http://www.sarna.net/wiki/Atlas_(BattleMech) ) is a good example of a mech that can dish it out with these weapons and take hits from them.

In regards to utilizing battleship weapons (400mm cannons) these weapons are bigger than anything a mech has or should be able to take a hit from easily. An Iowa class, should, statistically speaking, rip through mammoths, avatars, and most mechs pretty equally... and by equally I mean leaving no discernible remains. I'm fairly sure we can both agree on that point.


In regards to the avatar: It can not move backwards (one need only play the game to figure that out), and it has to be stationary to fire its primary weapon (I’ve found nothing to contradict this in any fluff), but here is a source anyway that will back up all I've said in regards to its poor mobility.

http://cnc.wikia.com/wiki/Avatar_Warmech

Not only that, but NOD and GDI both employ combined arms tactics quite regularly, which means that NOD walkers aren't going to be running around on their own on the field.

I see no problem with this point. It should be noted the clan does do the same with the elementals however... hence the numerous variations.

No, I'm not kidding. A very specific number needs some very specific evidence for it. And this is true both whether your figure is too high or too low. This is just basic debating fact. Pulling numbers from nowhere is ridiculous... to put it mildly.

I gave you the population figure for clan wolf in the quote that this quote was in reference too. The most official online link I can find at the moment is this one:
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/games/m/mecha ... e.htm#wolf

Though I believe you can also find the figure in the wolf clan source book, specifically the 91 version.

I doubt there will be an alliance. Take a look at the scenario, what are the Clans going to do first? Invade the blue-zones, how do you think NOD will respond? By sitting back and watching the two tear themselves to pieces, of course. NOD hardly thinks highly of GDIs wishes when it comes to nukes, this should be obvious because NOD uses nukes against GDI.

If this is replacing the scrin invasion than of course there is an alliance as ... as Kilian Qatar joined forces with GDI in the early stages of the war specifically due to the nature of the threat. It wasn’t until Kain reappeared that the truce ended. Furthermore, the scrin threat is far less dangerous than the Clan threat, since the Scrin weren’t expecting a fight.

And like I said, vehicles hardwired against EMP is just as likely for the C&C verse. It's just that these EMP weapons don't look or act anything like our modern stuff. They're like directed energy beams in some cases.

That is using the in game visuals, which I believe we are avoiding first off. The actual weapons are described as a standard electromagnetic pulse (although there is some capability to aim them). The technical readouts on GDI and Nod state that both forces are hardwired, but they are still incapacitated for short periods of time due to the systems being overloaded.

As for total immunity, I believe Steel Talons adaptive armor was entirely immune to the effects of EMP.

The battletech equivalent is the Tight-Stream-Electro-Magnetic-Pulse, which is a focused beam that creates the pulse where a mech wants it to be. It also disables vehicles for a short period of time... The weapon is a game mechanic reference as near as I know and while excellent against tanks, has limited success against mechs. The general tactic employed with such a weapon is to utilize repeated hits on the same target... but again, this deals with the game mechanics and the general way to disable a mech.

It is a distinct possibility that the liquid tiberium bomb will be used before the end. The GDI most certainly considered using it against the Scrin (and did use it, depending on the players choises).

Here is the biggest issue I see though... the more nuclear and tiberium weapons being brought to bear on clan wolf the more 'devastated' earth becomes. Director Boyle is in charge, so we shall assume the fool uses the weapon at the end of the day... clan operations in a limited area (regionally speaking of course) must suspend and they must focus elsewhere. Meanwhile, over 25 million people on earth, GDI and Nod alike, die, per the bad GDI ending... and that was using one in a remote red zone with no population… imagine using them in a blue zone…

Last and not least: Since we are dealing with a new networked Ion Cannon System, and not the old goddard one I retract my statements about the system being a cake walk as now an actual battle must ensue.

So, next up is how the battle must proceed: We will ignore the warships and just keep them out of the range of the ion cannons. Since they won’t be utilizing orbital bombardment or risking it, they will not use their NGC or NPPCs and will merely be logistical support from here on out.

We have absolutely no quantification ANYWHERE for ion cannon defensive lasers. Because of this we have to come to some sort of conclusion on their power.

You conceded that with 'enough fighters' the network will be overwhelmed... so I must ask, what do you think is 'enough.' Frankly, I think two fighters per ion cannon to be good, with one fighter lost per cannon to be a fair estimate... Aerospace fighters are routinely equipped with ERPPcs, Heavy Guass Rifles, guided missiles, and have a top speed somewhere around 200 hexes in a minute.... each hex is 20 km... so that's 4,000 kmpm or 240,000kmph... I don't know the exact figure for it (since sound is modified by heat for its actual speed) but its quite a bit times the speed of sound.


In short, if they really wanted to, they could just crash into the ion cannons...


Last but not least: We would do well to organize this debate slightly to avoid posts getting this long. PM me if you agree since we can figure out the details separate from this thread.

[PainRack]

Actually, we do have some quantification. The Elemental powersuit is capable of taking hits from modern day tank weapons. Furthermore, battlearmor has endured glancing blows from the heaviest weapons in the BT universe (on the mech scale anyway) and lived to tell the tale. Again, I won't say this is the rule, as it's obvious it isn't... but it is telling that an Elemental has a chance (statistically speaking) to survive a direct hit from a PPC.

Nonetheless, I'm willing to give a point for a point here in regards to the GDI Zone Trooper. They are also observed as taking glancing blows from pretty heavy weapons... Though at the end of the day the Elemental does have significant superior air mobility in many of the designs (able to bridge far greater distances).

Do we actually SEE this? Elementals can survive hits from an IS PPC, but that's the heaviest weapon they can actually survive from. More importantly, their 90m jump range isn't significantly longer than Zone Troopers range.

While infantry is a dime a dozen... it is nowhere near as 'infinite' as the games would lead us to believe, and only commandos are truly trained for mech assault. Furthermore, Remember, GDI is at 40% (even less since the war has started), of its PEAK military numbers during the second tiberium war. Nod is at this point quite split, with Kain presumed to be dead, Europe is suffering from deadly radiation levels and has just lost millions of lives... in fact, the entire earth is suffering from the fall out effects to a degree, just from visuals (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WakZor3B ... re=related), though we have no reason to assume, per the news broadcast, that any place other than eastern europe was truly devastated.

The fact that GDI can field an entire corps in battle means that their numbers, both infantry and tank outnumber the entire invading clans frontline touman. We don't know the extent of their forces, but there is no reason to disbelieve that GDI doesn't outnumber the entire Clans frontline forces.

As for elementals surviving mech based weaponry: It appears I've misstated the actual battlearmor in use here now that I look over my material. Field Manual: Draconis Combine references the Kanazuchi being hit by a Mad Cat clan Tech ER PPC, and not just surviving, but returning fire.

Now, you'll forgive me not having the time for the actual math on this, since I'd have to avoid using the game sheet data to calculate 'similar effects' based on damage... the PPC is a weapon capable of reducing a modern day brick, metal, and concrete structure to slag... as JMS said in another thread, it has melted glass across the street from its target

If we use "game rules", said PPC is unable to destroy a wooden structure. Well, the IS equivalent isn't. More importantly, JMS conclusions is utterly unfounded. An more accurate reading of the quote is that the PPC blast smashed and scattered melted glass across the street. If anything, that's actually a LOWER yield of PPC firepower.
We can measure the effects of the PPC and its quite considerable, but the pecularities of Battletech armour means that Elementals can still be highly vulnerable to low end attacks.

it still puts this weapon in the low gigajoule range... somewhere around 1-5 gigajoules allowing for appropriate 'variation' based on the effects of a 'lightning' gun (read: The rules use dice for damage).

No, it FUCKING does not. The weapon doesn't use dice for damage, save for the RPG variant. And in that case, I would argue that the RPG firepower has been dialed down, but that's an argument between me and Cray which I lost because of the pecularities of scaling between multiple game systems.
It is possible to get 1-2 GJ firepower for PPCs, but that's using high end and unverifiable numbers such as the vapourisation of carbon and etc.

Next: The quantification for the standard Elemental, which is what I utilized originally (though in error, and again I apologize) is not dissimilar, though not as impressive as the Kanazuchi. This refers to different types of elementals (admitedly using the genetically enhanced soldiers) surviving glancing blows from medium autocannons (around 100mm) and statistically speaking from guass rifles (although this is a game mechanic, and does not have the fluff page for it). There is this passage that I was able to find with a little bit of memory and googling:

No. The Elemental cannot survive a direct hit from a gauss rifle.

This is what I was able to find... not to be declared dishonest if someone can find a more complete version of it: It DOES state further down (I can't remember how much further, but I believe it was within the same passage even) that common infantry, also if lucky, can take you out with a bolt action rifle with the right shot... so take from this what you will... I regard this passage in context with what the person was trying to say “your armor is awesome, don't be stupid though,” but it does speak volumes of the capabilities of battlearmor as a whole.

Yup. Your armour is also vulnerable to grenade launchers and VLAWs. Hell, Clantroops actually establish that gyrojet rifles can damage Elemental armour. 3 shots not to mention the least, although there could had been prior damage........ not so bad since Battletroops establish that the rifle platoon actually do contain heavy assault rifles, this as opposed to the Battletechnology and commonly held assumption that its consist of heavy gyrojet rifles, VLAWs and AT rifles.

while light mechs are generally lightly armored fast moving support units for scouting, networking, and general guard duty.

Which light mechs are you referring to? The 10 tonners, or the category of light mechs ranging from 20-40 tons? If its the former, they're restricted solely to guard duty and other specialised purposes, mostly paramilitary.

It was me being nice: The Heavy Guass rifle in battletech utilizes a 500 pound (1 ton = 4 rounds = 500 pounds per round) slug. Now... utilizing some more fluff and tech manual data in space the effective range of the rifle is 360km (LONG). It travels this distance in exactly one minute... this comes out to something like 19,680 ft per second. On impact this is equivalent to somewhere around 4 gigajoules…

LOL. And they call me a fanatic? The Heavy Gauss Rifle here is UTTERLY different from the Gauss Rifle from space............... To the extent that NO aerospace unit carries the Battlemech equivalent.
Why not just use the Gauss rifle round at Mach 5? Of course, you won't wanna use that since that exists in outlier fluff, while novels and sourcebooks and even TROs establish the Mach 2.2 figure. Similarly, ground units may simply use different round speed, which incidently explains away the disparity between Mach 5 and 2.2.