Starfleet Jedi

Picard wrote: There's no calc for the "Timeless", it was stated in the dialogue that full impulse is 0.8 c.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Impulse_drive

Negative. There is no such comment in the episode, and the Memory Alpha page should be corrected.

Then it's one continuity error less, I guess.

Praeothmin wrote:The Phoenix in FC was in space, so our only visual aid were far away stars.

We have a general idea as to how fast it was accelerating. They start at about 20,000km/s, and then reach about 300,000 km/s at no more then most 5 minutes later.
300,000-20,000= 280,000
5*60= 300
280,000/300= 933.333333
So at it's slowest the Phoenix was accelerating at about 933 km/s.

_____
The stars are for all practical purposes stationary points of reference aren't they?

We know the Phoenix's size.

We have scenes where the E-E, Phoenix, and Sol are in the same shot, right?

I'm not good with scaling images.

Praeothmin wrote:In Timeless, Voyager crashes on a planet, and we can clearly see the ground as it crashes relative to Voyager, and it's not going fast enough to even approach the Phoenix's speed in FC...

The view is not unobstructed. You are seeing the event through a warp field.

Lucky wrote:The view is not unobstructed. You are seeing the event through a warp field.

What about that scene makes you say that?
-Mike

Lucky wrote:The view is not unobstructed. You are seeing the event through a warp field.

Mike DiCenso wrote:What about that scene makes you say that?
-Mike

Correct me if I'm wrong, but even when not at warp the warp drive is still generating a warp field around the ship. You are always looking at seemingly all Star Trek ships through a warp field.


It's not proof one way or the other about mass lower being used.

I know it's not exactly on the topic, but I'll post it here:

http://st-v-sw.net/STSW-WeaponRange-Trek.html

This battle quite clearly indicates that Alpha Quadrant vessels have an effective tactical range (and a quite effective one, too) on the order of 200,000 kilometers at least. (Curiously, it also suggests that the Cardassians have an advantage in weapons range against Nebula Class starships.)

Nebula class is far larger than Galor class. If it was effective range being overlayed (which would be logical given the situation, and Picard's wording - he wanted range between two ships, then it's probably beacouse of size difference - it's far easier to hit larger target (or at least one that gives larger sensor signature), which is entire point of stealth. Even F-117 or F-22 have (or will have to, in case of F-22 and F-35) to carefully plan incursions into radar-covered area so as not to get discovered. Nothing is absolute.

Capital thinking, but as I recall there's another Cardie vessel in the picture until it gets blown up, and the Phoenix range display does not change when that other ship is the target.

We could of course presume that this other vessel just happened to have a target profile largely identical to a Galor, but that seems a stretch.

Then again, we have: http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ded230.jpg

Assuming the other supply vessel was of this class and not the later Cardassian cargo ship design seen in DS9 (Dukat's vessel), I suppose the argument could hold.

Lucky wrote:The view is not unobstructed. You are seeing the event through a warp field.

We most likely are seeing the Phoenix through a Warp field, why I will accept the non-matching visuals with the 20 000 Kps speed, but Voyager crashed without a Warp field on a planet, so the view was not distorted, or we would not have been able to look at the surroundings in such a clear way...
No, Voyager was not going any faster than a couple hundred meters per second when it crashed...

Here's the dialog just as they exited slipstream:

PARIS: Captain, we're just a few parsecs from the Alpha quadrant.

JANEWAY: Not exactly how I wanted to cross the finish line.

TUVOK: Hull breach on decks five through ten. We're losing life support. If we don't land the ship we're risking structural collapse.

PARIS: I'm reading a planet nine million kilometres ahead. It's class L.

JANEWAY: Do it. We're coming in too fast! Reverse thrusters. All hands, brace for impact!

If it took around 30 seconds, it would mean 300,000 km a second. Obviously the ship was slowing down rapidly, so that is not a constant speed. Still speed of light is pretty damn impressive.
-Mike

Yeah, ok, impulse is quick indeed, but how can we rationalize the fact that in impulse, from our own perspective, the ships pass through the "tv screen" in about 1 second, even though we're not in Warp?
If the camera was moving, I could understand, but when you look at the stars in the background, nothing moves, so we must assume the camera is stationary...

Now you have reminded me of TNG - when we have shots where stars are seen throught windows, we see stars moving relative to the window. Slow, but moving. And ship is presumably flying in straight line.

Picard wrote:Now you have reminded me of TNG - when we have shots where stars are seen throught windows, we see stars moving relative to the window. Slow, but moving. And ship is presumably flying in straight line.

Do you have any indication on whether the ship was at Warp?
Because most of the time we saw stars move, the ship was at Warp...

2046 wrote:Capital thinking, but as I recall there's another Cardie vessel in the picture until it gets blown up, and the Phoenix range display does not change when that other ship is the target.

We could of course presume that this other vessel just happened to have a target profile largely identical to a Galor, but that seems a stretch.

Then again, we have: http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ded230.jpg

Assuming the other supply vessel was of this class and not the later Cardassian cargo ship design seen in DS9 (Dukat's vessel), I suppose the argument could hold.

It probably is, since Cardassians were shown to have only single class of warship during TNG, and ships were close, used for same purpose, so I think that we can assume they were of same class.

Praethomin wrote:Do you have any indication on whether the ship was at Warp?
Because most of the time we saw stars move, the ship was at Warp...

Correction acknowledged.

But stars seem to mostly move during shots from inside. Is there any way to estimate speed of ship based on that?

Picard wrote:But stars seem to mostly move during shots from inside. Is there any way to estimate speed of ship based on that?

Not when they are at Warp, since the stars seem to mostly always move at the same speeds...
I guess you could try to guesstimate the star's distance from the ship by its brightness, and then use trigonometry to calculate, based on guesstimated distance of the star from the ship, in LY, how much the 50cm move we saw of the star in 1 second meant in LY...
But it's complicated, long, and I'm not going to do it... :)

Lucky wrote:The view is not unobstructed. You are seeing the event through a warp field.

Praeothmin wrote:We most likely are seeing the Phoenix through a Warp field, why I will accept the non-matching visuals with the 20 000 Kps speed, but Voyager crashed without a Warp field on a planet, so the view was not distorted, or we would not have been able to look at the surroundings in such a clear way...
No, Voyager was not going any faster than a couple hundred meters per second when it crashed...

We are specifically told the Phoenix activated it's warp drive after reaching orbit, and the Enterprise-E also had it's warp core online.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZ_Aq0YvBJ0&
3:48

[Phoenix cockpit]

TROI (OC): Seven...
COCHRANE: Let's rock 'n' roll!
TROI (OC): Six...
('Magic Carpet Ride' booms out of the speakers as the Titan V blasts off)
RIKER: Can you turn that down a little?
LAFORGE: Hey! We've got a red light on the second intake valve.
COCHRANE: Ignore it. We'll be fine. ...Prepare for first stage shutdown and separation on my mark. Three, two, one, mark.
RIKER: Okay, let's bring the warp core on-line.
COCHRANE: Oh, wow.
(Cochrane has spotted the Earth below)
LAFORGE: You ain't seen nothing yet.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fVDbhf ... re=related
1:53 you see the entire flight of the Phoenix.

From what we see in First contact, and seemingly every other movie and episode of Star Trek I recall is that if the warp-core is online then the ship is surrounded by warp fields. I can't recall seeing a display not show warp fields around the ship.

If you want to say that Voyager was not surrounded by a warp-field then you must show the warpcore was offline.