Starfleet Jedi

What do you think of the figures presented in this thread?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:What do you think of the figures presented in this thread?

Terribly flawed, for a large number of reasons. It's basically a re-hash of the SDN party line on phaser drilling. I'll discuss "Inheritance."

"Inheritance:" First and foremost, his assumption that phasers were tuned for maximum destruction is incorrect and at odds with the episode, which emphasizes the delicacy of the operation:

JULIANA: I'm going to monitor the density of the rock layers and adjust the strength of the particle beam as we go. That should minimise the seismic stress that we generate while we're drilling.

Second, his volume is off severely. The depth of the hole is not eight kilometers. The script indicates two benchmarks, one that eight kilometers have already been drilled. Some time after that we have a boost in power, and then the drilling rate slows after they get to within two kilometers and start dialing back. That means if you were reading the script correctly, you'd be working with a larger depth, and treating it as a lower limit of the depth, not an upper limit.

As a prior reality-based estimate, we would expect a crust depth of at least 25 km over land based on Earth. There's actually an Okudagram that suggests the depth drilled is around 2800 km, however - far from having to rely on dialog, it's possible to analyze the incident on a strictly "videographic" basis using pictures.

He's clearly off (and too low) in assuming a depth of eight kilometers - inaccurate by his choice of method (script) and severely so by his claimed preferred method (visual analysis). Not only that, but the width is off. In order for the top of hole straight through the crust of a planet to be visible from below, it needs to be conical... and to have a diameter substantially larger than 28m at the top. This is also required for the hole to be stable, incidentally. For reference, 100m wide at the top of a 10 km hole would look about the size of the Moon.

If I'm not greatly mistaken, I recall Wong's bottom-end estimate of 2m diameter didn't even fit with the scenes down in the rock for the bottom of it, that it was more like 3-4m due to ceiling height, but it's the trig and brightness factors that make it completely absurd.

The end result of all of that is that the low end of Inheritance (a scarily thin 10 km crust) using his methodology corrected only for egregious errors is almost exactly a thousand times as high as he's claiming. 20% more depth, well over 800 times the average diameter. Using a strict documentarian "visuals" approach gives 22 billion times the volume (which serves only to point out the patent absurdity of relying on small details of visual effects, IMO).

The range of reasonable figures extends easily to >10,000 times his mass disintegration rates. He's also not quite understanding collateral damage (the waste heat problemin addition to disintegrating the column of rock, the phaser drilling heated surrounding rock by 300 degrees centigrade) or the removal problem (first you must disintegrate the rock; then you must make the debris disappear somehow).

I touched on that guy's methodological failings in this blog post, with a quick reference to the phaser bit especially.

Suffice it to say, his kung fu is weak.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:What do you think of the figures presented in this thread?

• • • • TheTechMaster wrote:Yes, Phasers were used to drill a mile into the surface of Turkana IV, but it took hours to modify the Phasers for this job. Modifications were NOT done to protect the lives of people below, however, these modifications were made in order to increase the Phaser’s effectiveness against the granite rock they were attempting to tunnel through.
        
        Granite is not an incredibly dense material and the time constraints involved in adjusting Phasers to drill 1600 meters into sand, dirt, and granite rock speaks not to the effectiveness of Phasers but rather to their ineffectiveness and how a Phaser’s effect is closely based upon the material a Phaser will be used against.
        
        ...

That reminded me of something I wrote once upon a time ...

• • • • Who is like God arbour wrote:For example, in both, Inheritance and Legacy we know that not the maximum fire power was shown.
        

        • In Inheritance they had to watch that they don't create to much seismic stress with the drilling. Their scans have indicated that the magma pockets where they have planned to set up the infusion units are somewhat unstable. That's why Julianna was going to monitor the density of the rock layers and adjust the strength of the particle beam as they have gone. Data has said, that his calculations have indicated that the first phaser blast will be approximately nineteen seconds in duration. In this time, they should have drilled to the magma pockets. Once the phaser beam was through the crust, they have boost its intensity by twelve percent till they were short before the magma pocket. Than - nearing the somewhat unstable magma pocket - they must have reduced the strength of the beam again because, after they have drilled through all the way to the magma pockets minus the remaining two kilometers in circa 14 seconds, they have needed for the last two kilometers suddenly five seconds. apparently Julianna, who has adjust the strength of the particle beam as they have gone, has reduced the strenght as they have got near to the magma pocket to prevent seismic stress. One could assume that this was pre-decided and already considered by Data in his calculations. But that would mean that they have needed only 14 seconds for the nearly 2'800 kilometers.
        • In Legacy they didn't wanted to alert the Alliance of their doing. The drilling had have to be very unnoticeable.

        In both events they had quasi to made a scalpel out of their battle axe - proverbial. Nevertheless - especially in Inheritance - they have shown great firepower. The question is how much firepower they would have if they wouldn't have reduced the battle axe to a scalpel.

• • • • Who is like God arbour wrote:[...] they have had to drill through the crust and a huge part of the mantle to a magma pocket that was shortly above the core, they wanted to "restart". An earthlike planet assuming, that would be round about 2'800 kilometers and accidentally that was what Geordi has shown in the briefing:
        

        • • • • 

        Even if they wouldn't have increased the power it would be still circa 2'800 kilometers in 19 seconds - minus the last 2 kilometers in 5 from these 19 seconds.

• • • • Who is like God arbour wrote:[quote="in the script from "Inheritance" it is"]

        • PICARD, GEORDI, and DATA look on as Atrean Scientist PRAN TAINER stands before an OKUDAGRAM depicting a cross-section of the Atrean planet. Also present is Pran's human wife, JULIANA TAINER, a fiftyish woman dressed in Atrean fashion. The Atreans are a humanoid species, only slightly different from us.
          
          • • • JULIANA:
              Captain, our situation has worsened since my husband and I first contacted you. The molten core of our planet is not just cooling -- it's begun to solidify.
          • • • PRAN:
              Our gravitational field has been affected -- seismic activity has increased by a factor of three.
          • • • JULIANA:
              If the cooling continues at this rate -- Atrea will become uninhabitable within thirteen months.
          Everyone takes in this grim news.
          
          • • • GEORDI:
              We could minimize seismic activity by creating isobaric fissures and releasing some of the tectonic stress -- but that would just be a temporary fix.
          • • • DATA:
              The only permanent solution would be to re-liquefy the core.
          Geordi stands and moves to the Okudagram.
          
          • • • GEORDI:
              These pockets in the magma layer -- how close are they to the molten region of the core?
          • • • JULIANA:
              A few kilometers, why?
          Geordi turns to Data.
          
          • • • GEORDI:
              You think that's close enough to try ferro-plasmic infusion?
          Data considers, then acknowledges the possibility.
          Juliana and Pran share a look -- they're not sure what this means.
          Data moves toward the monitor, gesturing.
          
          • • • DATA:
              The procedure would involve using our ship's phasers to drill down through the planet's surface and into the pockets -- where we would set up a series of plasma infusion units.
          • • • GEORDI:
              We'd trigger the units by firing a modulated energy burst down through the shafts.
          Juliana addresses Data.
          
          • • • JULIANA:
              I see... injecting sufficient plasma directly into the core should trigger a chain reaction... and that will reliquify the magma...
          • • • DATA:
              It should be possible to stabilize the core temperature at ninety-three percent of normal.
          • • • PRAN:
              If it works, the core would remain molten for centuries.
          Picard lets Pran and Juliana consider for a beat.
          
          • • • PICARD:
              If you give your permission, we'll begin immediately.
          • • • PRAN:
              Very well. But before we proceed, I'd like to update our geological surveys.

        We know now, that the pockets in the magma layer are few kilometers close to the molten region of the core.
        
        Assuming an earthlike planet, they have to drill through the crust and most of the mantle to reach the pockets few kilometers from the core.
        
        
        
        That are 2890 km according to Wikipedia - minus the few kilometers the pockets are away from the core.
        
        I see no reason to doubt that they have to drill through nearly 3'000 kilometers.
        • • (A further question would be, where the molten region of the core is? It could be that they even have to drill through parts of the already solidified core to reach the molten region of the core.)
        [/quote]

It is funny how different interpretations of the same episode can result in different values. That's why it is important to be not only good in physics but also in other areas. The best calculations would have no worth, if the assumptions on which they are based, are wrong.




That is my interpretation of what happened at Atrea.

Everyone, who argues that they could have only drilled twenty kilometres, has to answer the question, how a pocket in the magma layer, that is supposed to be only a few kilometres away from the molten region of the core, can be only twenty kilometres deep at all.

If it is only a few kilometres away from the molten region of the core and if the core is surrounded by a circa 2.800 kilometres thick mantle, the pocket in the magma layer has to be circa 2.800 kilometres deep - unless someone understands » a few kilometres « different than I understand it in that context.

• • • • TheTechMaster wrote:[...] IF episodes like A Piece of the Action, Encounter at Farpoint, Pt 2 and Galaxy's Child demonstrate that Federation Starships can adjust their weapon output levels with a press of a button - from a wide-range pulse able to stun a city's population, to a light shower of energy to aid a starving alien being, to functioning as a scalpel and use it to perform a c-section on an alien - why would they need to adjust their weapons to be even less powerful to drill through granite?
        
        This isn't a matter of interpretation. This is a logical fallacy. You are advocating the idea that a Federation Starship's ability to adjust their Phaser output to a lower level cannot be done without hours of modification, despite clear evidence that you are wrong. You prescribe and advocate a theory that Phaser energy has to be reduced by a measure to dramatic to safely effect granite, while ignoring the fact that - with the press of a button - Federation crews were able to deliver fantastically reduced output levels to surgically cut through organic matter, stun humanoids from orbit, and provide safe nourishment to an alien being who lived on energy. [...]

What he does not understand is, that a phaser is a very complex weapons which can have many different effects on its target. That's why some are comparing it with a Swiss Army knife.

While it may be easy to simply reduce the energy and form of the beam with pushing a few buttons, as was done in the TNG episode »Galaxy's Child«, or to change between a few other settings, e.g. to a stun mode, as was done in the TOS episode »A Piece of the Action«, it may necessitate more work to change other properties of a phaser beam.

That's only to be expected. After all, the phasers of a ship are optimized for their role as a weapon. As such, only a few settings can be changed without bigger changes in their hardware-configuration.

Apart from that, it is a question of precision. To make a c-section on an alien with a weak phaser on a distance of less than a few kilometers should be a little bit easier than to hit a target through an atmosphere, that is a few hundred kilometers away, and to drill then - on a certain path with no margin for variance - into a planet for nearly 3.000 kilometers.



Besides, although it was said in the TNG episode »Encounter at Farpoint«, that the phasers are to be rigged to emit an energy beam, the Enterprise did not fire its phasers on the from the Bandi captured creature [O].



There is no phaser phalanx where that energy beam originates from. And it does not look like a phaser beam at all. Maybe the insofar possiblby wrong dialogue has to be treated as such or it simply means that energy from the phasers was used to energize the then used energy emitter.



It's interesting that, while a few pro Star Wars debaters were arguing, that a weapon, that has such a multifunctionality, has to be inefficient in its different tasks compared to a for each task dedicated tool, now there are Star Wars debaters, who think, that a phaser is such a versatile tool, that it can do all things and if it fails to do all things, it is proof for its deficiency.

Speaking of logical fallacy: That is a classic No-Limit-Fallacy. Only because a few changes in the phaser settings are possible with a few keystrokes does not mean that all imaginable changes are possible with a few keystrokes. There has to be a limit.

Who is like God arbour wrote: It is funny how different interpretations of the same episode can result in different values. That's why it is important to be not only good in physics but also in other areas. The best calculations would have no worth, if the assumptions on which they are based, are wrong.




That is my interpretation of what happened at Atrea.

Everyone, who argues that they could have only drilled twenty kilometres, has to answer the question, how a pocket in the magma layer, that is supposed to be only a few kilometres away from the molten region of the core, can be only twenty kilometres deep at all.

If it is only a few kilometres away from the molten region of the core and if the core is surrounded by a circa 2.800 kilometres thick mantle, the pocket in the magma layer has to be circa 2.800 kilometres deep - unless someone understands » a few kilometres « different than I understand it in that context.

They dug a shaft and thus far, cones aren't considered shafts. A shaft evokes a tube. They saw light from the hole down there, and I doubt they dug a cone which width would have been half the cone's depth. As I said, that's not really a shaft anymore.
So, the planet was cooling down, to such an extent that it was beginning to solidify. Presumably, this would mean the heat flow would be very, very low, and the only reason there would be pockets of magma left would be because the elements at that depth, likely not silicates but mere rock, requiring less energy to be found in some molten state.
This completely mocks the idea that seismic activity would have "increased by a factor of three". It's even more silly since the pressures in a mantle would prevent the creation of any neat shaft. The only way to get one, assuming it wouldn't even collapse (!) is by having the mantle stupidly hard, or with a very high viscosity. Which, once again, laughs at the idea that any seismic activity could increase. If anything, it should actually decrease.
And how in hell can it ever affect gravity, pray tell?? Since when the difference between molten and solid rock and metals has made any difference?
Besides, we don't know what the is the geological composition of Atrea, do we? What's its size? Is it barely bigger than Mars, which core extends to roughly half its total radius?
I can't even begin to imagine how a planet would cool down so fast under 13 months. I'd rather expect the phenomenon to occur, you know, over something like hundred of millions of years.
The best way to rationalize this would be to take the georeactor theory as fact, and assume that the planet has suddenly come critical close to the minimal amount of nuclear reactants it would need to generate heat (and that forgets that even georeactor theory would only contribute to a very small quantity of the geothermal gradient).
Of course no matter what you could do would reverse the phenomenon, and certainly no infusion of plasma would restart a chain reaction (a chain reaction?).
This is headache inducing.

It's obviously that this episode is, as many other episodes too, scientifical nonsense.

But the episode is canon and can't be ignored. Fact is, that ...

• ... they have said, that the molten core of Atrea is not just cooling, but has begun to solidify.
• ... they said, that they wanted to re-liquefy the core.
• ... they said, that they wanted to do that by drilling to pockets in the magma layer.
• ... they said, that they then wanted to fire a modulated energy burst down through the shafts and inject sufficient plasma directly into the core.
• ... they said, that this should trigger a chain reaction, that will reliquify the magma.
• ... they never said, that this chain reaction is supposed to be a nuclear chain reaction.
• ... they said, that the pockets in the magma layer were only a few kilometers away from the molten region of the core
• ... at Earth, the outer core begins approximately 3.000 km beneath the Earth's surface.
• ... Atrea seemed to be a M-class planet.
• ... they said, that calculations indicated that the first phaser blast will be approximately nineteen seconds in duration.
• ... they said, that they wanted to adjust the particle beam while drilling to minimize the seismic stress.
• ... they said, that they needed for the last five kilometers two seconds.
• ... that they said, that they successfully drilled to these magma pockets.
• ... that from the bottom of such a pocket, looking through the shaft, we could see light.
• ... that this would be impossible, if the shaft were 3.000 kilometers deep, but only a few meters in diameter.
• ... that we do not know, how far above the ceiling of the pocket was and therefore can not estimate the diameter of the end of the shaft.
• ... they said, that they successfully reliquified the magma and saved Atrea.

These are the facts of that episode.

Do you question these facts?

If not, how do you interpret them?

Is your interpretation better than mine?

If yes, why?

Who is like God arbour wrote:It's obviously that this episode is, as many other episodes too, scientifical nonsense.

But the episode is canon and can't be ignored. Fact is, that ...

• ... they have said, that the molten core of Atrea is not just cooling, but has begun to solidify.
• ... they said, that they wanted to re-liquefy the core.
• ... they said, that they wanted to do that by drilling to pockets in the magma layer.
• ... they said, that they then wanted to fire a modulated energy burst down through the shafts and inject sufficient plasma directly into the core.
• ... they said, that this should trigger a chain reaction, that will reliquify the magma.
• ... they never said, that this chain reaction is supposed to be a nuclear chain reaction.
• ... they said, that the pockets in the magma layer were only a few kilometers away from the molten region of the core
• ... at Earth, the outer core begins approximately 3.000 km beneath the Earth's surface.
• ... Atrea seemed to be a M-class planet.
• ... they said, that calculations indicated that the first phaser blast will be approximately nineteen seconds in duration.
• ... they said, that they wanted to adjust the particle beam while drilling to minimize the seismic stress.
• ... they said, that they needed for the last five kilometers two seconds.
• ... that they said, that they successfully drilled to these magma pockets.
• ... that from the bottom of such a pocket, looking through the shaft, we could see light.
• ... that this would be impossible, if the shaft were 3.000 kilometers deep, but only a few meters in diameter.
• ... that we do not know, how far above the ceiling of the pocket was and therefore can not estimate the diameter of the end of the shaft.
• ... they said, that they successfully reliquified the magma and saved Atrea.

These are the facts of that episode.

Do you question these facts?

If not, how do you interpret them?

Is your interpretation better than mine?

If yes, why?

They never said what kind of chain reaction it is, but anything short of scientific junk is not going to cut it. Scientific junk, because it needs to deliver massive amounts of energy back into the core, and even the mantle (as it's obviously liquifying as well).

I dislike the argument "it's scientific junk but it's canon so there". It doesn't matter if it's canon, because if it's scientific junk, then you can't really calc it. It's close to pointless.

A way to begin to rationalize it a fraction of the nonsense... and that's a long way to get there, would be to argue that the core is very big and the planet rather small.
Now the Okudagram shows Data pointing somewhere halfway down the radius.
It would be just as nice as to pretend that the E-D shoved a big flashlight down the shaft (by tuning phasers), which would still dissipate over the distance, but which would still explain the light. . . . lol.

For the seismic activity, I'd say the contraction of the mantle and the core would generate a very unique kind of earthquake, with fractures running top down, from the core.

The gravity changes? That's unfortunately beyond what I know. Aside from the sudden loss of matter - WTF#1 - or a bizarre relation between the planet's geology and spacetime - WTF#2 - I just don't see what can be said.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:They never said what kind of chain reaction it is, but anything short of scientific junk is not going to cut it. Scientific junk, because it needs to deliver massive amounts of energy back into the core, and even the mantle (as it's obviously liquifying as well).

Maybe that's exactly what they wanted to do: Inject enough hot plasma into the core, that the core reliquifies and starts to rotate and creates currents which creates an oscillating magnetic field which than induces an electrical current which heats the core like an induction cooker. Maybe that's what they meant when talking about a chain reaction.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I dislike the argument "it's scientific junk but it's canon so there". It doesn't matter if it's canon, because if it's scientific junk, then you can't really calc it. It's close to pointless.

In that case you can stop to argue at all. Because I do not know one single science fiction film that is scientifical accurate. They are always violating the one or other established scientifical rule. You can only argue, if you suspend your disbelief and accept the given informations as true.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:A way to begin to rationalize it a fraction of the nonsense... and that's a long way to get there, would be to argue that the core is very big and the planet rather small.

While possible, there is nothing, that supports that assumption. And if you assume a giant core, it would only be the more difficult to reliquify it.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now the Okudagram shows Data pointing somewhere halfway down the radius.

Exactly. Although the Okudagram doesn't have to be true to scale. If it were, the pockets would be gigantic.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It would be just as nice as to pretend that the E-D shoved a big flashlight down the shaft (by tuning phasers), which would still dissipate over the distance, but which would still explain the light. . . . lol.

Yes, that's possible too.
Or maybe they have installed - without telling us - devices that are supposed to stabilize the shaft. And what we are seeing is only the light from these devices.

Who is like God arbour wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:They never said what kind of chain reaction it is, but anything short of scientific junk is not going to cut it. Scientific junk, because it needs to deliver massive amounts of energy back into the core, and even the mantle (as it's obviously liquifying as well).

Maybe that's exactly what they wanted to do: Inject enough hot plasma into the core, that the core reliquifies and starts to rotate and creates currents which creates an oscillating magnetic field which than induces an electrical current which heats the core like an induction cooker. Maybe that's what they meant when talking about a chain reaction.

The magnetic field is not going to produce more heat in the center of the planet than what is consummed to generate said field to boot, especially since the magnetic field will be a waste on its own since it's largely spreading all around and far from Earth.
Besides, it looks like your plan would end cooking all life on the planet. :)
Now. Earth's entire thermal stock is worth several zettatons. Atrea's mantle was solid enough to burough through, down to the core, which itself was cooling down to the point it was solidifying.
E-D could simply not achieve that. Not even a small percentage of that.
I don't know how you'll slice and dice this, but I don't see it getting anywhere. The plasma infusion babble is nonsense. The only thing it could do, via technobabble, is pull energy from somewhere, like subspace, and THAT would be the chain reaction.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I dislike the argument "it's scientific junk but it's canon so there". It doesn't matter if it's canon, because if it's scientific junk, then you can't really calc it. It's close to pointless.

In that case you can stop to argue at all. Because I do not know one single science fiction film that is scientifical accurate. They are always violating the one or other established scientifical rule. You can only argue, if you suspend your disbelief and accept the given informations as true.

No there are times when it works, when there is enough raw facts which fit with science, or times when science can still work around it.
Like a turbolaser bolt. It's technobabble, but once it explodes it release energy and that can be measured with a certain degree of precision.
The problems arise when we have to observe things which our science can't measure, based on either what's put on screen or established by characters. When it involves an artificial system or some kind of godlike power or magic, an equally deus ex machina explanation will work well enough.
Then it gets harder when you have a phenomenon which is natural, yet does things which aren't natural by the laws we know.
Then, technobabble or magic might do, or not, but at this point, begging for a calculation is kinda absurd.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:A way to begin to rationalize it a fraction of the nonsense... and that's a long way to get there, would be to argue that the core is very big and the planet rather small.

While possible, there is nothing, that supports that assumption. And if you assume a giant core, it would only be the more difficult to reliquify it.

The fact that they exclude the existence of a solid core seems to indicate a small planet. Mars for one has no truly solid core, as far as we know.

Note: perhaps we can rationalize the gravity alteration this way: they're talking about a change of "relative" gravity, that is what they experience as the final force, and for some reason, with a change of centripetal force due to some slow down in rotation, this resulting from the core cooling down and chaging how fast it spun inside the planet. After all, if it solidifies, it's going to transmit its momentum to the rest of the planet since its connection to the rest of the planet increases. The effect, though, would probably be absurdly minimal. I'm not even sure you'd notice anything worth it if a planet like ours entirely stopped spinning since the centripetal "force" is already very small. Realistically, the gravitational force, the one mentioned in the show, will NOT change.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now the Okudagram shows Data pointing somewhere halfway down the radius.

Exactly. Although the Okudagram doesn't have to be true to scale. If it were, the pockets would be gigantic.

Sure, but when you point to the center of a schematic, surely there would be no reason for this to correspond to something else than the center of the real object, a difference of a few kms nonwithstanding.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It would be just as nice as to pretend that the E-D shoved a big flashlight down the shaft (by tuning phasers), which would still dissipate over the distance, but which would still explain the light. . . . lol.

Yes, that's possible too.
Or maybe they have installed - without telling us - devices that are supposed to stabilize the shaft. And what we are seeing is only the light from these devices.

It seems to be a blue light. The sky. Looking at the picture, it even seems that the tunnel bends towards Data's side of the "tube".

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The magnetic field is not going to produce more heat in the center of the planet than what is consummed to generate said field to boot, especially since the magnetic field will be a waste on its own since it's largely spreading all around and far from Earth.
Besides, it looks like your plan would end cooking all life on the planet. :)

It was only a not serious suggestion. I'm not a geologist and I do not know en detail how our own planet works, let alone how other planets may work. What I know is, that even geologists do not really know, how our own planet works. They have their theories. But there are several different theories. You mentioned for example the georeactor theory. My not serious suggestion was loosely based on the dynamo theory. Let us assume that in the 24th century they do not have merely theories but actual knowledge of the processes in a planet and that they found out, that our theories are wrong.
You simply have to suspend your disbelief. Fact is that they talked about initialising a chaim reaction. They did not specify what kind of chain reaction. That's what you have to accept.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:I don't know how you'll slice and dice this, but I don't see it getting anywhere. The plasma infusion babble is nonsense. The only thing it could do, via technobabble, is pull energy from somewhere, like subspace, and THAT would be the chain reaction.

Yes, maybe they did meant such a chain reaction.
Although that does not sounds right. According to Juliana, the injection of sufficient plasma directly into the core should trigger the chain reaction, which will reliquify the magma. I do not see, how into the core injected plasma would create a subspace reaction.
But I do not want to argue what kind of chain reaction they could have meant. There are simple not enough informations for an educated guess. And, as I have said, I'm not a geologist.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Now. Earth's entire thermal stock is worth several zettatons. Atrea's mantle was solid enough to burough through, down to the core, which itself was cooling down to the point it was solidifying.
E-D could simply not achieve that. Not even a small percentage of that.

Nobody has said, that the E-D is achieving that. The E-D has only drilled the shafts down to the pockets in the magma layer. The plasma could have come from Atrea.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:No there are times when it works, when there is enough raw facts which fit with science, or times when science can still work around it.

Yes, the less informations about how something works is given, the less it violates science. Then you can try to find a scientifical explanation for what you observe. But then, all your explanations are only, not by canon supported guesses. They may be scientifical sound. But another explanation may work too.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Like a turbolaser bolt. It's technobabble, but once it explodes it release energy and that can be measured with a certain degree of precision.

That's an ideal example. Because - as far as I know - the nature of turbolaser bolts were never disclosed. As far as I know, there is not even a proof in canon, that they are really DET weapons. That means that you do not know what exactly happens when they are hitting their target. The only thing you can do is to compare their effects with effects a conventional weapon would create.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:The problems arise when we have to observe things which our science can't measure, based on either what's put on screen or established by characters. When it involves an artificial system or some kind of godlike power or magic, an equally deus ex machina explanation will work well enough.
Then it gets harder when you have a phenomenon which is natural, yet does things which aren't natural by the laws we know.
Then, technobabble or magic might do, or not, but at this point, begging for a calculation is kinda absurd.

Okay: Let us assume, that you know exactly, how a turbolaser works. But you do not know, how a phaser works.
Please explain to me, how you want to compare them, if you are the opinion, that then it makes no sense to calculate anything.

To me, it is simple. I look at the effects a turbolaser is doing and "calculate" how much energy is necessary to have such an impact with conventional meanings. Then I'm doing the same with phasers and compare the effects. It is irrelevant, how exactly each weapon has achieved its effect. Maybe the one has used some kind of chain reaction or has disrupted nuclear bonds via technobabble and the other is a raw DET weapon and has achieved its effect via simple heating. But it is more or less irrelevant. Because the only thing you are usually interested in when evaluating a weapon, is what it does to its target - not how it does it.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:It seems to be a blue light. The sky.

If the shaft is a cone, it could be the sky.
If the light is emanating from some in the shaft installed devices, which are supposed to stabilize the shaft, it is not the sky. From such devices emanating light can be blue to. Many federation devices are emanating blue lights (e.g. warp core, warp nacelles, tractor beam).

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Looking at the picture, it even seems that the tunnel bends towards Data's side of the "tube".

I'm not sure, how that is relevant. But it could be merely an effect of that perspective.

On a kinda unrelated note i managed to somehow get into yet another pissing contest with some dude called Questor (aka "thermodynamic boy") on ASVS and any good links regarding the Episode Q-who and the firepower calculations of the photons could be useful.

He is saying that the 2 holes in the centre of the cube are just scorch marks and no dmg was done, that the photons had a max dmg of 10 kilotons oh and that the borg had no shields when the photons hit it but cos they are so weak (10kt) we could not see the damage.

Oh and he is yet another mod and has already threatened me because i called him "thermodynamic boy" after he made a insulting nickname about me ("Jason the Second" who ever jason the first was).......so as you can imagine he is a mature debter...

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:On a kinda unrelated note i managed to somehow get into yet another pissing contest with some dude called Questor (aka "thermodynamic boy") on ASVS and any good links regarding the Episode Q-who and the firepower calculations of the photons could be useful.

He is saying that the 2 holes in the centre of the cube are just scorch marks and no dmg was done, that the photons had a max dmg of 10 kilotons oh and that the borg had no shields when the photons hit it but cos they are so weak (10kt) we could not see the damage.

Oh and he is yet another mod and has already threatened me because i called him "thermodynamic boy" after he made a insulting nickname about me ("Jason the Second" who ever jason the first was).......so as you can imagine he is a mature debter...

He usually is quite mature, but he's been debating "Jason" for a while, who simply comes in, posts indecipherable gibberish without any proof, links to videos that discredit him while claiming the video proves his arguments...
If you want him to treat you with respect, then make sure your posts are well written, but mostly clear, concise, and that you do have some proof, or at least strong evidence, of what you argue for...

Oh, and he can't ban you unless you do something illegal, so don't worry, if he insults you, you can insult him right back...

Praeothmin wrote:

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:On a kinda unrelated note i managed to somehow get into yet another pissing contest with some dude called Questor (aka "thermodynamic boy") on ASVS and any good links regarding the Episode Q-who and the firepower calculations of the photons could be useful.

He is saying that the 2 holes in the centre of the cube are just scorch marks and no dmg was done, that the photons had a max dmg of 10 kilotons oh and that the borg had no shields when the photons hit it but cos they are so weak (10kt) we could not see the damage.

Oh and he is yet another mod and has already threatened me because i called him "thermodynamic boy" after he made a insulting nickname about me ("Jason the Second" who ever jason the first was).......so as you can imagine he is a mature debter...

He usually is quite mature, but he's been debating "Jason" for a while, who simply comes in, posts indecipherable gibberish without any proof, links to videos that discredit him while claiming the video proves his arguments...
If you want him to treat you with respect, then make sure your posts are well written, but mostly clear, concise, and that you do have some proof, or at least strong evidence, of what you argue for...

Oh, and he can't ban you unless you do something illegal, so don't worry, if he insults you, you can insult him right back...

To further clarify, mods can't ban. Period. Technically the other two admins (Paul and Mirah) have the ability to, but I don't allow them to. I'm the only one who can ban anyone. Questor is nice when you get to know him, though.

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:On a kinda unrelated note i managed to somehow get into yet another pissing contest with some dude called Questor (aka "thermodynamic boy") on ASVS and any good links regarding the Episode Q-who and the firepower calculations of the photons could be useful.

He is saying that the 2 holes in the centre of the cube are just scorch marks and no dmg was done, that the photons had a max dmg of 10 kilotons oh and that the borg had no shields when the photons hit it but cos they are so weak (10kt) we could not see the damage.

Oh and he is yet another mod and has already threatened me because i called him "thermodynamic boy" after he made a insulting nickname about me ("Jason the Second" who ever jason the first was).......so as you can imagine he is a mature debter...

Kor, http://www.trekcore.com/ is your friend. You'll find lots of screencaps there to disprove that.
-Mike

Praeothmin wrote:

If you want him to treat you with respect, then make sure your posts are well written, but mostly clear, concise, and that you do have some proof, or at least strong evidence, of what you argue for...

Oh, and he can't ban you unless you do something illegal, so don't worry, if he insults you, you can insult him right back...

Well other than dishing out what he served me in regards to a title and a couple of insults i have made a effort to be as civil as i can. I think the main issue between us is not that we disagree on everything because i agree with him on a lot of his comments or that i disagree with his math to a point, i think its just the premise he basis the math off that i disagree with..

He has dropped his "phaser scorching" idea, i am hoping due to him learning the truth from the better quality video as he claims and not because i pointed out weapons scorching the cube screwed his theory if the cube had no shields when the torps hit.

Tyralak wrote:
To further clarify, mods can't ban. Period. Technically the other two admins (Paul and Mirah) have the ability to, but I don't allow them to. I'm the only one who can ban anyone. Questor is nice when you get to know him, though.

I already like him.