Lucky wrote: Mr. Oragahn wrote: The problem, for SW, being that TCWS was CGI-cartoon, with all laziness and nonsense you'd find in that. It doesn't even want or need to appear realistic.
So it's always troublesome to see people really look in detail into such material because it really does not present itself favourably to our usual scrutiny.
I stopped caring since day one when CIS tanks couldn't shoot down large dried up alga trees or when droids and troopers couldn't hit shit at a range of ten meters.
You can only extract global or rough impressions, plus the narrative, out of TCWS, and that's all. Period.
You have some serious nostalgia problems. There is almost no difference between the live action Star Wars and the animated version seen in Rebels and The Clone Wars. Take off the rose colored glasses my friend, and see the world for what it is.
You have not watched the movies. Although the aim is not stellar, the absurdity found in the CGI show is high. Terribly high. And I'm not counting the bizarre fu moves Padmé pulled out of nowhere in that episode where she was hunted on Coruscant.
Droids had bad aim in the movies. Not humans/clones. At least at distances of ten meters they could hit shit. Perhaps not in the first volleys, but they had good aim in comparison to the abyssal cases of TCWS.
The CGi show is just too retarded there for me to take seriously enough or care. I'm not interested in absurd exchanges of laser beams if there's no sense of danger or any remote sense that any side could, within the next five minutes, get a chance to take someone down from the opposite side.
And that doesn't adress the fact that it's overall CGI, not realistic, and therefore allows itself contortions that you wouldn't get in live action.
No one in Star Wars can hit the broad side of a barn unless the force/plot is on their side.
That's quite false. It's a mixed bag. Lucas is the faulty one here, not taking the stormtroopers seriously enough, and basically applying the same level of incompetence to any enemy. Yet, even if there are debatable cases in ANH for example, heroes still had to hide a lot of times in order to survive. Case in point, the exchange of fire in the destroyed bridge pit on the Death Star, or the failed escape from the prison sector.
Thing is, in real situations, if someone's firing at you, you're hardly going to have the opportunity to aim, and will most likely fire in the general direction while trying to cover.
Tanks in the real world can't just arbitrarily drive through forests, and hovercraft aren't all that good at driving through or over obstacles..
You didn't read correctly. I said nothing about advancing through forests by crushing trees, as your reply imples.
I talked about a tank being totally unable to shoot down a silly nimble tree that even offered cover to fleeing characters, iirc.
Mr. Oragahn wrote:That's never said in SW. We just see the Death Stars and that's all.
My own little theory is that it was a clever way for Palpatine to literally suck up resources and money across the entire Empire and created heaps of debt.
Once the reality of the 1st DS was made public, he didn't even need to limit the process the second time. Because aside from the exhaust porthole weakness, the first design already was more than enough. More than anything the Rebels ever amassed in one point. More than anything I've seen the Republic/GAR assemble at once either (battle of Coruscant, with thousands of Acclamators or Venators, would still fall short of the first battle station). A mere update to gap the weaknesses of the system, also by adding more failsafes, adding close in defense systems, more light combat crafts and even perhaps reduce the volume a notch cause it really was overkill, that would have been plain enough to still blow planets up.
Something that is touched all of once, and by characters with seemingly no sense of scale.
The banks can't do anything to the Empire because the Empire literally and figurative will destroy them.
Palpatine was creating an empire for no other reason then for the evils. Star Wars was never some well thought out story, but just a simple good VS evil with tons of PIS all around because it was poorly written. The only thing Star Wars had that set it apart was pretty eye candy you seem to hate.
Where did you read that I hate eye candy? You have reading issues mate.
As for the evil plot, dude, the most painful regimes Earth has known are nothing more than men just doing it for the sake of powah. From Rome to the Kremlin.
There's no need for a fucking convoluted plan or else, it's plain enough. The plot isn't suddenly stupid because there's clearly an evil force at play.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Indeed, but the slowest form. If he's about engaging trade and would be exploring uncharted space, his imperial fleet couldn't max out their hyperdrives anyway.
Therefore, he could easily exchange data for rather so-so FTL drives, with the main advantage that they don't represent ecological disasters contrary to warp drives which are massively regulated, in fact.
Best hyperdrives, control of repair centers and most efficient hyperlanes (possibly secret ones), wouldn't need to be a part of the deal.
1) A hyper-drive is a hyper-drive. It's all the same physics.
2) It seems the criminal element has the most knowledge of Hyper-Lanes.
1. What? Could you at least care about staying on topic?
2. If by that you mean the Empire has the most knowledge of hyperlanes, I guess yes. What's your point though?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: TCWS have introduced a mastery of holograms which, as someone said, was like it was Voyager on acids.
Such a level of technological capability means a shit lot regarding mastery of light, "hardening" it, and all sorts of quantum stuff, meaning that they'd have not so much issues at understanding computers in Trek either.
When you can control the dual wave/particle light itself to this level, I don't think being able to aim a megaton laser over a range of thousands of kilometers would be such a problem for the biggest yet conventional weaponized naval assets.
Like I said, the Empire has nothing of value. Who wants weapons that can't get through a basic navigational deflector?
I'm not even sure you're replying to the quoted bit. I'm simply stating that the Empire is not going to lag behind the UFP in terms of mastery of light-based tech.
Period.
This wasn't obvious before, but the new shows have introduced such advanced forms of technology in that department that the gap between ST and SW has been bridged.
As for ND deflecting light, ok, but it's a no limits fallacy. A mirror can deflect light, but there's something like photon pressure which will deal damage merely because of photons being compressed in large quantities, preventing proper deflecting.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Besides, wouldn't Star Wars possess a variety of exotic materials that the Ferengi would love to have? At least first hand, and perhaps go as far as to put a patent on the Trek side of this so no one would have a right to replicate the materials that might get properly scanned?
What fictional materials exist in Star Wars? The only thing I can think of is Kyber Crystals, and some stuff that is pretty much worthless in Star Trek that is Legends..
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Latinum
Latinum was unfamiliar to the Quark of the mirror universe. (DS9: "Crossover")
"Who Mourns for Morn?" suggests that gold is essentially worthless in civilizations with replicator technology, but Quark mentions that there are certain primitive cultures that consider gold dust quite valuable. See gold for more information.
Even if it happens in a mirror universe, a Quark who doesn't appear that different, within a Ferengi culture rather the same safe for not having access to latinum, still deals with less advanced cultures that do value gold.
Surprising eh?
Rather suits my point that what matters is the currency that's accepted by the other trader.
As far as SW is concerned, kyber crystals would easily fit the bill, and they don't need to be sold in massive quantities to have value, within such a context.
But on top of that, pretty much any material that SW's scanners could identify nor "deconstruct" in a high tech lab would also be valuable, simply because if the material cannot be read, it certainly cannot be reproduced.
Besides, what stops the Empire from setting shop and producing its own GP latinum exactly?
So as it stands, we see that there's more than enough different venues for the Empire to trade with the Ferengi.
I stand my point.
Oh, bonus point.
UFP replicators have limits, especially on organics.
http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Replicator
Some alien replication technology has been used to create organic material, such as when the D'Arsay archive created living snakes. The "Allegiance" aliens were also able to create living things, as in the case of Picard's imposter, in which the replicators were even able to recreate the dendritic connections where memory is stored. (TNG: "Masks", "Allegiance")
While only a Genitronic replicator could fully replicate actual organs for use in medical transplants (TNG: "Ethics"), by 2371, standard Starfleet replicator technology was theoretically capable of creating artificial substitutes for natural organs for use in medical transplants. However, this required the system to have some understanding of the organs required; for example, it was impossible to use a replicator to create a set of Talaxian lungs as Talaxian physiology included a complex series of neural links between the lungs and the rest of the body that replicators were unable to duplicate exactly (VOY: "Phage").
Now, would it be a safe bet that there could be at least a few odds creatures in the SW galaxy, a realm infused with the Force btw?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Odd. All info I've seen in my lifetime about UFP outposts seemed to largely involve human settlements, and the views of crowds in pre-JJAverse shift didn't throw an image of the humans being a minority there, quite the contrary.
If mankind is the minority, then why the hell do they have all the headquarters and all that, despite the fact that they were some of the less advanced species out there, btw?
1) There are a large number of species that superficially look like human do to those precursor who made sure humanoids are common. Heck, there are even Vulcaniod races as well.
2) We know there are ships that have few if no humans on them
3) Humans handle things like cold and hot better then a number of species in Star Trek so they show up everywhere.
4) Humans were on good terms with all the founding members of the Federation, but the other founders had some rather bad relations between them.
5) Star Trek is a TV show made on 20/21 century Earth with a makeup budget.
1. Let's see solid evidence of that. I could only cite the people from Betazed.
2. To what proportions?
3. Which means there's going to be a lot of them everywhere. This is not supportive of the opposite idea.
4. So they're a symbol of unity?
5. Doesn't count.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Uh what? Stupid and reckless, I don't get that vibe from the movies.
The guy is a super plotter and perhaps uses the Force to help himself there. He's the kind of trickster who would make Tzeentch very proud, only for what he achieved on a galactic scale in such a short timeframe.
You memory is rather tainted by nostalgia. Star Wars is PIS on top of PIS on top of PIS, and really is a kiddy show has nothing going for it beyond the eye candy, and I'm glad TCW and Rebels changed that
Without "The Force" being on his side he really can't do anything.
Episode 1
Palpatine shows his face or at least most of it to the Trade Federation while having Darth Maul by his side.
His plans require the Trade Federation to have no diplomatic skills, and act like cartoon villains even though it is against their best interests.
A bunch of little stuff in TWC
His order 66 plan requires no one discovering the Bio-chip weakness in the clones, and exploiting it or removing it. One little non-invasive medical scan was all it would take.
Turning Vader, and the way he demonized the Jedi was idiotic. Once Anikin finds out the guy is running both sides it requires massive PIS to not just kill him.
The ham fisted way he railroaded Asoka in the murder trial.
The way he over extends the Empire while kicking over every ant hill he can, and then making sure the ants are extra angry after ward.
The way he was surprised Vader turned on him in ROTJ even though this is the way of the Sith, and he had been treating Vader like shit since forever.
Do you know what the Trade Federation's best interests where? I don't, considering the little info we're given regarding the taxation dispute and, in fact, the overall state of taxation and regulation in the Republic. You don't even know if diplomacy was still a viable alternative. I'd think not, considering how the TF had a seat in the senate and that, for some reason, didn't prove enough. In fact, a classical demonstration of force gave the TF the upper hand.
For the reminder, it's precisely a stupid question of taxation that is behind the US' Civil War, not any topic about ending slavery whatsoever.
All in all, it seems Palpatine's plan was to increase the mutual antagonizing of major powers, and also to create more tension between the Republic's regulatory body and major economic corporations and their allied worlds. Turns out that he got what he wanted.
About the Sith showing up on communications, then what? The simple fact that they can appear as such, and that only to the few top leaders of the TF, would quite reveal an already existing deal.
The mention of anything Sith in communication just seals the deal even more: the TF can't afford themselves to be caught with such data. So it's pretty much guaranteed to be both encrypted AND erased immediately, like the modern texting apps. If an iPhone can do it...
Now, Palpatine's plan isn't bad at all if you consider that it may have initially banked on giving bad press to the Jedi and the Republic by having said Republic settle the dispute by the use of force. The TF could say that the Republic put so much pressure on them, and that so many other solutions failed, that only the application of force could allow the TF to be taken seriously. To that, the Republic would send "ambassadors". Either they'd prove useless, or they'd try to thwart the TF's actions, which would be akin to using police force, but using the Jedi so as to hope masking the Republic's real intent.
In the end, the Jedi survived and won, so Palpatine kinda sacrified his former allies and actually benefited from a surprise boost in his political career (which wasn't even necessary if the plan was to divide the galaxy from behind the scenes).
As for the rest.
Who gives about biochips?
They're more than likely Kaminoan tech, right?
Only Kaminoans can produce it. We've even seen that Kaminoans directly supervize clonetrooper healing facilities.
Anakin was an emo bitch. Palpatine sensed that the dude craved power and wanted to save his chick from whatever was bound to happen.
Admitedly, that's not the most clever part of the SW.
But are we going to drill plot holes the size of skin pores until they're gaping black holes?
Because there's like ton of modern movies which are massively appreciated and are filled with tons of inconsistencies and stupidity. Anything between Marvel and DC, for starters.
2) Making Tzeentch proud is not a compliment. Making Tzeentch is almost by definition someone stupid, reckless, wasteful, and self-destructive, and what Palpatine did was finish the tail end of a plan that was at best started by his Sith master if not many Sith generations before him, and then have everything fall apart in about 20 years or less because he was an insane idiot.
We're talking about making proud some über god of scheming and multi-layered plots.
Do you even understand the meaning of "making X proud" by chance?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I didn't get the impression that the Maki were that massively equipped either.
Now, iirc, the Maquis were mainly a problem to the Cardassians, and these guys weren't friendly towards the Federation.
Palpatine would just have to reinforce the side which seems to get too underpowered, so it could remain a shard in the opposite camp's foot.
This way they'd be grinding their forces away.
Reenforce with what? The Empire has nothing to offer.
Sure, the Empire can't provde anything it would have acquired from the Trek galaxy.
Like the Empire couldn't get its hands on replicator blueprints. The Maquis were craving for those for example. Damned civilians have access to replicators. HELLO??
You're claiming the Empire is just incapable of acquiring anything and later giving some of it to one side for geopolitical reasons.
As we've seen earlier on, it's wrong.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: That's a rather wide generalization. Not all Imperial officers would be cretins, and Tarkin hardly seemed to be a total space idiot either.
The Tarken who was too stupid/insane to use his anti-fighter defenses when being attacked by fighters, and knew exactly what the fighters were trying to do?
I love that reality of yours where high ranking humans show no overconfidence and never make any mistake.
It turns out that at least on Earth, things aren't so perfect.
No, let's just admit it. You hate SW and you're taking pot shots at anything seemingly non absolutely perfect. You hold the characters in SW to such an absurd level of perfection, I'd love to see that kind of scrutiny applied to Trek for example.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: They even had the same droids run ship controls and fight on the ground. They were that cheap. Palpatine just pushed them into a situation they couldn't handle, and which was enough to start a dramatic chain of events.
B-1 droids are versatile and cheap, and seemingly match or exceed the galactic standard for soldiers (which is kind of scary).
No they don't. The TF simply didn't care investing into high quality droids.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Not spotting asteroids with active scanners is close to impossible. Active scanner is so simple that it cannot go wrong at that level, it will just bounce off anything, especially dumb rocks, and indicate to the ship that there's a wall of trouble ahead.
If those rocks weren't spotted soon enough (and Leia was too busy looking at their fingernails), we'd have to look for good explanations. Like:
- Deactivcated active scanning to reduce profile signature with Imps on your tail might explain things.
- Active scanners focused on detecting anything imperial and ignoring anything else would also be logical.
1) We have and use radar that can spot birds in flight from a safe dispense away. Those dumb rocks are a real threat that a collision warning system should be looking for.
And how do you think a collision system detects those rocks?
2) You can't just make up excuses when there is no evidence for the capability in the first place.arvel: There should be a warning system so people not in the cockpit know to brace.
Yes, I can make those *excuses* because they're perfectly legit.
3) There are purely mono-directional sensory systems like Lidar
... which bouncing waves can be caught by others than the sender.
And last but not least, it's possible that for some whatever reason, the sensor was shut off by Solo and he didn't think about putting it up, or didn't work.
It's not like they weren't doing tons of work on the ship.
None of which prove that the ARC fighter would be outclassed. We see it was rather big. It's possible it had unnecessary features. See the TIE fighter, it seems to have less than the hybrid fighter used by the Jedi.
The Y-wings didn't fail. Where did you get that? They perform very well during the war, and were considered the best bombers for the trench run on the Death Star. They were taken down just as easily as X-wings were. In fact, a two-seated variant of the Y-wing might have dramatically increased the Rebels' survival rate.
The Rebellion simply was short on resources, and by the time they got money and more support, they switched to models that were currently built/available, more suited for deep space travel (which was something quite rare for small crats, as seen by the use of the hyperdrive ring apparatus for the Aethersprite).
Mr. Oragahn wrote: If anything, the Rebel fighters look really aged and overused. Probably jack of all trades, built more sturdy because Rebels couldn't afford more.
What's your point? If you use something a lot it stops looking new and shiny. The Rebellion had been going on for most of Luke's life remember, and even if the X-Wings were relatively new, they still could have seen a lot of action.
If they've overrused, it's a clear sign that the maintainance barely manages to keep up with the needs and use. We see that Y-wings didn't even have hull panels as much as they had during the Clone Wars. Such a lack of resources doesn't point to the Rebellion having the capacity to acquire "top of the line fighters a generation ahead of the Empire", as you said on page 1.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: GO24 is an extreme, Lucky. Your skirmishes are plain acts of war, with entire crews and perhaps outposts being killed and destroyed.
If you take a look at modern news, you'd see no one takes that stuff lightly. More precisely, one side is always careful to use proxies. US/Israel uses local EU forces in Europe, as seen lately with the Ukrainian conflict, being careful not directly launching US tanks against Russian tanks, Israel engages directly against small fish in its own region so no one gives a shit, Iran arms Hezbollah, the Saudi arms a bit of any kind of agitated Arab fundies (lately IS iirc), so nothing really direct enough.
But in your examples, you have UFP clashing with the Klingon Empire directly, and I don't recall the Klingons to open rather friendly and well reasoned. If anything, their empire was established through sheer brute force and maintain that way with a layer of honour ughr ughr on top of it.
Romulans? They appear to be snakes.
One Star Trek WMD and you get a Chicxulub or greater level event, and the group who did can be completely invisible, but no one ever remotely uses this sort of weapon even when the enemy capital is just a few days travel.
What? So all those skirmishes (acts of war, clearly) were all realized by the use of WMDs that never left a single trace about the user?
Are you just making stuff up?
Looks like you're telling me that no UFP and Klingon ships were engaged in battle (which obviously leaves pleeeeenty of time for both sides to receive signals about the well known enemy). Joke?
Everyone has at the very least a "gentleman's agreement" to play nice, and to not cross certain lines which the Empire crosses when dealing with their own people.
And those nice rules totally allow both sides to kill each other and destroy ships until... well until what?
Star Trek exists in a state of M.A.D. where everyone who has a warp drive can casually wipe out entire planet with ease, and it is rather easy to shatter a M-class planet like Earth. Real world analogs don't really exist when there are no real proxies.
You're kind of dishonest or naive to assume real world Earth is applicable to what we see in Star Wars and Star trek when the situations are often completely alien..
Yeah, because there's been no proxy war in Trek, no minor force acting on the interest of another one, etc.
Not to say that my examples don't cover only proxy war, since Earth has basically seen ALL wars. And yes, few countries, if none, really have the ability to prevent a ballistic or MIRV nuclear strike if any has to occur (interception systems are piss poor to say the least), especially when dealing with submarines that can casually coast along your territorial waters.
So the examples apply quite well. And therefore prove that the Empire has more than enough cards in its sleeve to cause massive trouble.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Naboo is super fertile. It's odd.
But I don't see how they could import anything if they can't even retain their main production for themselves.
If at least they had been in a situation like say, Japanese or Chinese, and exchange it for high tech or cheap labour.
The problem is that they do so because they don't seem able to produce enough on their own, which should never ever happen with damned Naboo.
Does Naboo really have to import water???
That's insane. If this were true, they'd simply have nothing left to trade with in order to import prime consumables.
It makes no sense to me.
So on this I'm sorry but I'm going to have ask for solid quotes for all worlds mentionned, or at least a very good sample.
Straw Man, and your reply really does not make sense as a result.
Read the definition of a straw man argument please. I'm essentially doubting the data you referenced and asked for confirmation.
You claimed that "Star Wars is not remotely a post-scarcity civilization", while I pointed out that the Empire could encompass a wide range of worlds with different economical levels.
You supported your claim by pointing at a few worlds and saying they were incapable to fend for themselves and had to import primary resources.
Actually, were you talking about worlds from a war period? Because I'm talking about the Empire, which is post war by a far distance.
1) In Episode 1 Naboo was suffering shortages when the trade fed invaded. Given those in charge of the invasion are shown to have little stomach for things like gladiatorial combat, I would say that killing the Naboo was not an intent, and it's bad for business if you kill your clients.
And proves what? Suffering shortages of what exactly? If the TF invaded and took control of food production and depots, that's normal. We're a far cry from the need for such a planet to import water!
2) Mandalore was importing premixed drinks tea or soft drinks which would imply something odd like a water shortage, but then the place is seemingly domed cities in desert.
So you're just extrapolating. Tea and special drinks can easily be explained as exotic products. It doesn't even mean that they can't be achieved locally, just that resources are used differently.
3) Pantora suffered civil unrest when the Trade Fed blockaded it in TCW which is odd as a blockade should just be annoying, and this implies the importation of more or less daily necessities.
I don't care about TCW (Clone Wars, ok?). Show me worlds that have massive problems in SW once all that stuff is over.
Wait. Let's change that. Show me in fact that the majority of worlds in the Empire are poor and have no access to cheap energy such as obtained from portable fusion reactors, for example.
Otherwise, please drop it.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: When was it said they needed so much time to map out most of the galaxy's routes? We don't even know how they're established nor what they really are.
No time frame is given, but you've still got the "Unknown regions" were seemingly beyond the Empire's reach, and the mapping likely takes time, and we know finding new lanes is hard.
So you made up the thousands of years timeframe. OK.
The Empire is a very recent structure, and probably had better things to do than mapping the unknown regions.
As for the Republic, who knows why the hell they never mapped them out?
In fact, how much do we know from the canon about that?
In the end, we still don't know much about how long it takes to establish a new reliable hyperlane, nor what they truly are.
But it seems to hardly matter since large amounts of Trek space are already charted and the data is publicly available.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: You're sounding like saying they went much faster once they were basically handed a map and a proper route to follow.
That is basically what we are shown in TOS, Voyager, Enterprise, and to a lesser extent TNG.
Yet, from what I see, in VOY, despite the detailed map, they didn't shave that much off.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Besides, 5 years ain't that much, nah? Wasn't the original length more like 75 years anyway? Or more?
Voyager estimated 75 years to get home.
They take on Nelix as a guide, and the estimated travel time drops to 70 years.
Year of Hell Part 2 they build a Stellar Cartography Lab, and they nock another 5 years off the trip.
Hope and Fear Starfleet sends some map data that takes another "few years" off the trip
In Q2, Q gives them a little map data, and they nock another "few years" off the estimated trip.
Better map data shaved about 16 to 30ish years off Voyager's trip estimated home, and when taken with episodes like "The Chase" you get the picture that crossing the Milky way in a few weeks to a months with good maps is possible for the UFP of The Next Generation era if not the TOS era.
I'm still seeing more than a dozen years to cover a large distance in the Milky Way after having gathered quite a sizeable amount of maps.
Is that going to best, say, Palpatine reaching Mustafar from Coruscant in what appears to be, perhaps, a few hours or much, much less?
It looks like when there's a very good map, speeds get really crazy in SW.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Because the tools are not secret? Do we even hold secret the tools needed to build tech already one decade old?
The Empire would still need to build the tools to build the tools to build the tools.
Sure, I didn't claim they'd magically pop into existence. I also said that they could acquire them. Hell, what would prevent the Empire from putting its hand on industrial replicators exactly?
You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.
At a time of war, it makes sense the best tech from the UFP wouldn't be available that easily. But that's not what I claimed anyway.
The point is not to exactly come to par with the UFP, but bridge the gap and compensate with the massive industry.
Now picture an industrial replicator that builds replicators and parts of other industrial replicators.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Then again they'd build them and try to acquire the most advanced ones. The problem with the post-scarcity thing in Trek is that like the best stuff... is basically just one knee bending from hand's reach.
You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.
The thing about the United Federation of Planets is that they seem to recycle everything so there isn't any trash to pick up like Anikin did in Episode one to build his pod racer and C3-P0.
Not that it is essential (I hope you're not implying that the Empire could only advance by collecting garbage from UFP trash bins), but I'm going to ask for proof please.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: If you get the physics, plans for some models and plans for the tools, which again I don't see being kept secret except for the most sensitive latest stuff, then you do get a chance to reduce the gap rather quicly.
This is where the UFP's self sense of superiority in ethics and openness could hit it in the buttocks.
You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.
Is repeating yourself like a broken record your latest tactic?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It was short hand example. You can buy the latest hard science books on Internet and everything preceding them.
Within the UFP, you don't even have to buy it! Hallelujah!
Open bar!
You're also forgetting that the Cardassians couldn't do what you suggest, and that would imply that it is nowhere as easy as you suggest given they already have the same tech base as the UFP, and their biggest problem was seemingly simply raw power.
Yes, it is.
Apparently, you can't read. You fail to comprehend that there's no assumption to be found here. Anything publicly available from any academy in the UFP and its science books is to be picked freely. Yummy.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Considering the Death Star and the discharge of a super beam that fucks planets doubled by some funky hyperspace related effects, I think superconducting thingamajicks won't be much of a problem.
Perhaps not as good, certainly, but they're most definitely there.
Natureal weird stuff and shields in no way shows the Empire could produce the needed supe conductors.
Yet I gave an example of a device that clearly shows the Empire could do that, at a scale the UFP never matched.
Plus the Empire makes big ships. It has more than the means to do so. Therefore it can compensate with size if the tech, being inferior, requires more room.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I most certainly disagree. One scientist can change the course of an entire war.
Not on a scale that is large enough and fast enough. One person can only do so much.
So much as solve one single problem that blocked an entire chain of logic, for example?
When you see that some massive advances in science so often come down to one guy putting the right pieces together and unleashing a whole range of discoveries, your claim is a bit hard to swallow.
I'm not saying it would happen over a night.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Because obviously those scientists would come with empty hands and would have no idea of where to get their hands on such tools. I mean, they'd probably pick some of those "ubiquitous" replicators with them, just because they are that practical. Literally handing them to the Empire.
Shame the ones he/she would have are only good for common elements found in the real world, and not have the resolution he/she would need to be of real use.
Proof?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It has plenty to offer, even to the sane ones. Basically the whole game changes within the Empire. It gives you a nice place and you do what you want. It builds planet blasting moon sized stations. No limits. No restriction on outlawed tech or genetics!
1) You basically just stated that only the insane scientists would want to go to the empire. The sane ones can already do what they want when they want.
Who talked about insane scientists?
There's probably quite a large amount of regulations that normal scientists would like to champion. The Empire would be absolutely open and public about the liberty it would give to scientists.
2) They wouldn't be able to do what they want when they want because that isn't how the Empire works. It would be do what the Empire wants when the Empire wants it or else.
You didn't read. The Empire needs to attract scientists. You think it's going to put barriers to entry when it needs the contrary?
3) You use to actually make intelligent arguments, it's insulting.
Well, you've been more than agressive over that entire post of yours, but if I were you, I wouldn't start making penis comparisons solely based on the perceived superiority of your arguments.
Not to say that it was totally uncalled for, but for some clear reason, there's literally not a single debate we have where you can't help yourself but pounce.
Dude, you need to chill.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I think that some of their scientists, regardless of their talent, but formed by the UFP so therefore having all the bases necessary to at least bridge the gap, offer a rather large potential of transfuges who are not even going to ask the UFP to do stuff they want, the way they want.
Today we have plenty of scientists who work on nice stuff, yet there are plenty on work on terrible projects, more or less given free reign by private ventures or some governments, depending on the international relations btw.
This makes almost as much sense as JasonB's average posts.
Respectfully, fuck you.
Surely enough, one more post like that and all you'll get in return is the enjoyment of that nice echo chamber you're headed for.
If I'm reading this correctly you are claim that scientists will go work for the Empire so they can work on what interests them because the powers in Star trek won't let them for some reason that makes no sense?
Every scientist we see in Star Trek is working on what they want, and it's only the insane ones who can't, and even then the Empire really would be a major down grade in every way.
So you're ready to tell me that research within the UFP is absolutely not hampered by any regulation or code of ethics whatsoever?
Good to know.
Hard to believe, though.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It will swing both ways. But the Empire has more to gain.
Plus the Empire can promise a human-friendly specist environment where you don't have to eat a propaganda that spoon feeds you the beauty of having whatever green alien settle next to your home and fuck your girl. You greatly undermine the power of species' instincts.
That's probably one thing that Empire would likely support, a specist movement right on Earth if possible.
You're really not making sense. If you're going to play devil's advacate, then at least get you facts straight.
Yet I make rather clear statements. What about a pro-specist political message is hard to grasp there exactly?
Are you somehow impaired?
1) Human-Friendly and The Empire are oxymorons. I know of very few sane people who want to move to third world countries and be slaves there.
Pardon? I'm not talking about human-friendly shit, but about a militant pro-human environment. Getting the difference here, genius?
2) The GFFA has far more cross species things going then Star Trek, or did you miss the sex slave trade that was in a bleeping "kiddy" show?
The GFFA? What?
The Empire, you mean?
I don't recall seeing that many non-humans in the Empire. Did you?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: But we're not told what happened next, nor if this government had any means to retaliate, or even was capable of warp travel.
This response does not make sense. You asked a question, and I proved they would dare to double cross a client.
But "a client" is vague and does not necessarily apply to the Empire.
Hence my questions because it's entirely possible that double crossing this client wasn't that risky.
On the other hand, double crossing a galactic empire...
Mr. Oragahn wrote: OK, but "Jews in Space" still don't like brute force applied against them.
1) This is horribly rude and offensive. I've never met a Jew who remotely fit this description.
Never heard of the joke about the Ferengi being an over the top pastiche of Jews?
Well, now you know.
So just relax and breathe.
2) You've really never seen Deep Space Nine have you? Ferengi are basically organized crime mafia types.
And?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It's bad for health, and more importantly, bad for business. You can fool a group once, but not several times. And you're still dealing with an entire galactic empire which would hold many secrets.
Then some Ferengis might not care about antagonizing the Empire, then others might very well be concerned by such reckless decisions.
Besides, YES, as I explained earlier, probably on page 1, the Ferengi have a large advantage to gain in trading what the Empire wants: because the Empire dictates most of the market on its side, and that's basically heavens for the Ferengi, who can't create much of an artificial scarcity on the Trek side.
On the Imperial side? They will have to (and most likely, gladly will) play the dark side style capitalist game, because that's the core of their business and mentality. Easy access to everything sucks for merchants and resellers, that's the golden rule.
1) Funny how the GALACTIC EMPIRE doesn't control the entire galaxy.
Who gives? It's still galactic at scale.
2)Why trade when no one can stop you from stealing?
You don't get it, huh. You can steal and replicate as much as you want, to obtain certain privileges and things inside the GE, you'll either use credits or barter.
That you can infinitely multiply the stuff doesn't really matter. It's a question of operating within an scarcity environment. You play by the rules.
And in fact, the Empire would soon be able to do the same.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Yeah well I don't understand the nazi communist part because they're literally two totally opposite concepts.
It the real world groups that inspired the writers when they created the Galactic Empire. Mining Guild = Empire which would imply the Empire has taken ownership of pretty much everything.
The Empire Strikes Back
Leia: So you're part of the mining guild then?
Lando: No, not actually. Our operation is small enough not to be noticed... which is advantageous for everybody since our customers are anxious to avoid attracting attention to themselves.
Han: Aren't you afraid the Empire's going to find out about this little operation and shut it down?
Lando: That's always been a danger looming like a shadow over everything we've built here. But things have developed that will insure security. I've just made a deal that will keep the Empire out of here forever.
All which could easily be explained by said MG being in good relations with the Empire (and enjoying privileges), and imperial regulations on the other hand which some people might find restrictive.
Not sure how they need to be total "nazi" + "communist" there.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: The Hutts have their little bubble, and we don't know if they can or want to expand. By the time of the Empire, you see Imperial troops on Tatooine, remember?
Did you see the Republic on Tatooine? Oh wait, no.
They have much to bring with them, those Ferengi, and they can cut themselves a nice "mobile" interstellar trade market slice within the Empire.
There is no imbecility there, it's actually the point of business.
There's a whole galactic market that still uses "printed" currency. Good!
Note, btw, that the Empire wouldn't be stupid to the point of not keeping their eyes on the Ferengi either.
1) Which just means the Ferengi use replicators to cheaply and perfectly the worthless Imperial currency.
Like the Empire will not know about the replicators.
2) The cloaked Ferengi ships will just beam up anything they want as would any other Star Trek power. They wouldn't even need a cloak give how useless Star Wars sensors are.
But they're painted green and gold. See?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Refer to the points above.
The Empire is a dream come true for the Ferengi.
A bunch of helpless primitive idiots to rob blind.
You think robbing wouldn't get noticed.
Perhaps if the Ferengi are obsessed about spades, ok, that could go unnoticed.
Not to say that with so many worlds to settle on, the urge for trade will simply kick in. Do you know that some people just trade for pleasure?
Careful, you might fall off your chair there.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: They won't need to do that, quite obviously.
If someone is robbing you blind then you need to at least try to stop them. You can't let mafia types just run amuck.
Sure, if the Ferengi behave badly, the Empire will have to do something.
But then it's not like the Ferengi's trade centers are the only places to grab tech, is it?
Then again, as soon as the Empire acquires sensors and transporters, which it will quite obviously, they'll have the means to retaliate in ways the Ferengi wouldn't like.
See, you keep thinking from the principle that there will be no tech leak from the UFP side despite the fact that their juicy bits of knowledge are, for the most part, largely available.
Replicators, sensors and transporters are nearly cheap as dirt. You don't even need the most advanced ones, you can settle on models outdated by a decade or two.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Maybe the Dominion was wrecking worlds and subduing populations, and used engineered slave warriors as well alongside other mercenaries which means they had no use for Ferengi's assets.
The Ferengi had little to bring, no fancy toys to sell in small parts, and the Dominion's actions most likely killed trades in several parts because of the tension and destruction of assets.
Merchants like open frontiers and zero tax. They don't like stepping across frontlines much.
As for the Empire being cartoon villainy, not really. Lord of the Rings and Mordor forces? Yes, perhaps. The Empire? Just because we saw a rather lopsided application of brute forces against Rebels, who would obviously be presented as dissenters, enemies, trouble makers, terrorists and what have you by the Imperial propaganda (which it would own so much that basically most of the population would automatically be siding with the Empire or adopting a neutral laissez-faire standpoint).
You might think as the destruction of Alderaan being over the top, but unfortunately we weren't privy to all the details before hand.
We weren't even told, but what if Alderaan had been neutered early on, with all trade routes filtered by the Empire for some years already?
What if they were already in a very bad position regarding the rest of the pathetic remains of the Senate?
After all, Vader knew that they had weapons and Leia was lying through her teeth (source: novelization).
In real world, an entire country like Iraq has been ravaged and left in shambles for less than that. So...
If anything, the Empire had far more evidence and reasons to act nasty against Alderaan (from their pow of course, they're still monsters).
So this little digression of realpolitiks aside, I don't really see any reasons to stick such a gross fairy tale filter onto SW. Surely, Disney is now producing a rather kiddy show (with that choper droid that keeps saying FUCK btw) and Darth Lucash was the one who couldn't handle the much superior Empire Strikes Back and had to introduce teddybears in the last OT movie, but the overall intrigue is just as gruesome as real world stuff.
Given you have chosen willful ignore about Star Wars, you are just making stuff up despite the facts seen in Rebels and Clone Wars.
They are kiddy (CGI) shows, aren't they?
Yes, they are.
So telling that a kid's show presents people and faction in a kiddy way is kinda expected, you know.
The stuff from the movies, that was different (if you can excluse the Ewoks...).
In fact, by the spoilers for the next spin off movie, the tone will be quite different from the trash those "Collge Humour" CGI shows are.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Unless having an access to Ferengi paybooks, that would be hard.
You just ignore the fact the Federation has a surprisingly competent intelligence gathering service. If the UFP spies don't know about it then it isn't happening.
Proof that this service knows absolutely everything, especially if off the record translations between UFP members and the Ferengi are done?
Oh wait, are you going to tell me that all transactions are completely recorded and spied by the UFP?
Nice regime there.
Still waiting for solid proof that no Ferengi whatsoever never sold anything to the Dominion or any non-UFP members, ally, neutral or foe.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: It would be quicker to ask if UFP members have any restriction with selling stuff to non-UFP members.
You claim betrayal, but is there anything to betray there?
Now, while I'll be waiting for evidence for your claim, I'll still point out that the UFP is more fertile, diversified, larger and stable ground for trade.
But then again, the Empire is even MORE of that, all at once.
Have you had a stroke or something? You've been acting rather odd lately?
The UFP has never been shown to sell to anyone that I'm aware of. The Cardassians would have loved to purchase UFP tech if they could have, but no one sold them anything from what we see.
I'm talking about the Ferengi here, not the UFP selling anything.
What is that kind of tech the Cardassians would have loved to buy from the UFP? Proof that said tech even was available for sale within the UFP and to UFP members to begin with?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Well, assuming no Ferengi gets caught by the Empire for starters (you know, we do have got some members of your family, so perhaps your Nagus guy or god isn't willing to trade, but I understand you'd be more open minded?), I'm rather sure that the Empire wouldn't be enjoying seeing those ugly bastards literally produce fake credits.
It's much more useful to trade peacefully. That's pretty much why the Ferengi are favourable to the UFP to begin with, isn't it?
The Ferengi are merchants mainly, they don't have the industrial might. They're "perfect" agents of transfer between clients within the Empire, buying crafts, consumables, gear, tech and droids in large quantity.
Heck, there would be Ferengi who would trade just because they love to trade, because their whole culture is about trading, and gladly abide by the local market's rules, even if cheating sometimes.
1) Strange how I already showed this would work.
2) Why would there even be counter fit credits?
3) There is no way to show the credits are counter fit.
Doesn't really matter; if they use the credits, they get something in return.
Why would they even bother using credits otherwise?
Mr. Oragahn wrote: I didn't know that being part of an Empire made you a slave.
Where is that idea coming from?
The Empire Strikes Back, Rebels, and a shit ton of Legends.
Well let's have the proofs roll.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: As pointed above, most of what I see is humans. Even in places where you'd expect a massive amount of mixing (administration, academies, etc.). Not to say that quite everytime another major UFP ship was shown, no matter where it came from, it generally quite a larger quantity of human crews visible.
Funny how Vulcans, Betazoids, Ocompa, Bajorians, and huge number of other species in Star Trek look like humans. You trying to make me think you are recovering from a stroke?
Vulcans have that hairstyle that betrays them. Bajorians have the thing on their noses.
Ocampas and Betazoids, it works.
Yet, it would be rather convenient that all human faces we see actually hide non-humans, because that would not solve the problem that the glaringly non-human looking aliens are quite a very strict minority.
Where are the vast amounts of smurfs and green people, for example? They seem to be inside the UFP pretty early on.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Careful, you might break a nail there.
You're the one with memory problems it seems.
You make all sorts of stupid claims and fell outraged very easily for absolutely non-existent issues.
You claimed shitty R&D, which you have no proof of.
A good way to prove that would be to provide documented evidence of the Imperial Research trying to advance in not so impressive scientific domains and failing.
Otherwise, on those principles, we could talk about how the UFP fails on foldspace tech, or has hardly developped that much AI, over several centuries of existence.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: The Republic stagnated at a leisure pace, the places it cared about largely pacified, and nothing to fear from local thugs lording over scumworlds.
Not a reason to technological stagnate.
Yes, it is. If it works well enough. Fusion clean energy, droids, hyperspace, holograms and else, that's very good.
Plus bacta, for medical cures. They have cyborg tech for extreme cases.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: The Empire, within its three decades of existence iirc, built two Death Stars and, by act of Palpatine,
Old designs reliant on finding big lightsaber crystals in the ground.
Old designs? The very fact of building different models and even upscaling them requires fuck tons of research, because you cannot arbitrarily upscale bits of tech just like that. Let's not even talk about the massive constraints on structural integrity.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: in fact introduced a whole new range of warship production like the galaxy had never seen, which it perpetuated after the fall of the Republic.
Building big ships was already done.
Not that kind.
No new technology or innovations.
Aside from what was new, of course.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Also, the rebellion seemed to be a pretty recent thing in fact, appearing quite lately,
Funny how you ignore the fact that the Rebellion started the day Palpatine became emperor. The Rebellion was as old as the Empire.
If that's revealed in Rebels or else, good, but from the movies alone, the Rebels hardly have that many resources right through ANH. It only becomes serious around TESB, several years after ANH.
What's your evidence?
It's one thing for you to not watch Rebels, but you are forgetting things from Episode 3.
I don't recall the birth of the Rebellion being announced in Episode 3.
When does this happen exactly?
Plus, even if it was that old, the thing remains that it was short on resources (read point above regarding ANH).
Mr. Oragahn wrote: and the Empire would have no real reason to put lots of efforts into R&D.
There is always reason to research and innovate in the real world
Unless you're quite happy with what you've got.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: But let's not pretend that they were full of idiots and that there wouldn't scientists whose curiosity would suddenly be teased by the existence of new techs.
IF you've talked with engineers and scientists, you then know that they'd jump on anything new and exciting.
That's nice and all, but Star wars tends to be shown to be full of idiots for the most part.
Yeah, really, am I supposed to debate with you after such a ludicrous claim?
If you hate SW, fine. I mean, you seem to watch entire shows featuring legions of cretins. Is it to make you feel worthwhile or something, because as far as I'm concerned, that's the kind of stuff that puts me off.
Mr. Oragahn wrote: Kid me! :D
Vader had an utterly huge stampeding amount of glory to back him up, tons of reasons to have earned far more respect than the Emperor ever had, for at the very least having been betrayed and burned by the Jedi who had been presented as traitors 24/7 on all channels, and most importantly, having led the Republic's forces to victory in the most decisive battles, liberated worlds and having defeated the CIS, who turned against the Republic. Besides, winners write history.
Palpatine gained a lot of support by simply showing that Vader, the war hero, sided with him.
Only for that, Vader would have a solid loyal support from the entire Navy and Army, down to all regiments of the Stormtroopers ranks.
Palpatine would always remain a schemy politician in the minds of all the vermine crawling at his feet.
Wow, you memory is a mess. The Empire openly mocks Vader in the OT, and no one knows that Anikin = Vader.
You dishonest twat.
Only one guy
kinda laughs at Vader in ANH (and that's only about the remark regarding the Force), and you equal that with the entire Empire.
Oh fuck off, that amount of BS is just too much to cope with.
End of discussion.