The Darksaber Argument
Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:43 pm
Darksaber is one of those EU books which are often cited by Trekkies to point out how the EU also sports its load of inferior firepower figures, which gained considerable value the day the AOTC: ICS appeared.
It's much despised by ICS defenders, and KJA is the subject of much personnal attacks. Everything, from his logic, intelligence and writing skills go through the hate grinder.
Well, let's see if Darksaber is indeed a correct example of low maximum firepower.
Globally, the evidence, as it is presented by Trekkies, is that Admiral Daala ordered Yavin 4 to be destroyed, with turbolasers fired at full power.
But we actually get a chance to read the quotes in detail, there are *bits* which are usually left out, and that's unfortunate, because they seem to make quite a difference in the final picture you'd honestly paint after reading them.
Here's the extract from page 292:
"We strike from orbit. All turbolaser batteries, full strength. Fire at will, targeting any structures in the jungle."
This is an order passed to the whole fleet. Imperial Star Destroyers were used in that case, while Daala would use the Arc Hammer, and Executor sister.
Considering the "importance" of the source, it clearly gathered much attention.
Wayne Poe even dedicated an entire page to this argument, called THE DARKSABER BDZ ARGUMENT - because everything is related to the Base Delta Zero operation.
The idea is that Trekkies use Darksaber as one element of evidence to show that a certain generous interpretation of the BDZ order would be impossible, considering the levels of firepower imperial ships are capable of.
I'll leave the BDZ argument aside, it's sufficiently argued on its own.
What matters here, is that on his page, Poe attempts to demonstrate that Darksaber can't be used as an "antiproof" against his vision of what a BDZ is.
So what we have to do here, is understand what turbolaser batteries mean, and look at the whole context, to properly gauge the orders passed on by Daala.
It's much despised by ICS defenders, and KJA is the subject of much personnal attacks. Everything, from his logic, intelligence and writing skills go through the hate grinder.
Well, let's see if Darksaber is indeed a correct example of low maximum firepower.
Globally, the evidence, as it is presented by Trekkies, is that Admiral Daala ordered Yavin 4 to be destroyed, with turbolasers fired at full power.
But we actually get a chance to read the quotes in detail, there are *bits* which are usually left out, and that's unfortunate, because they seem to make quite a difference in the final picture you'd honestly paint after reading them.
Here's the extract from page 292:
"We strike from orbit. All turbolaser batteries, full strength. Fire at will, targeting any structures in the jungle."
This is an order passed to the whole fleet. Imperial Star Destroyers were used in that case, while Daala would use the Arc Hammer, and Executor sister.
Considering the "importance" of the source, it clearly gathered much attention.
Wayne Poe even dedicated an entire page to this argument, called THE DARKSABER BDZ ARGUMENT - because everything is related to the Base Delta Zero operation.
The idea is that Trekkies use Darksaber as one element of evidence to show that a certain generous interpretation of the BDZ order would be impossible, considering the levels of firepower imperial ships are capable of.
I'll leave the BDZ argument aside, it's sufficiently argued on its own.
What matters here, is that on his page, Poe attempts to demonstrate that Darksaber can't be used as an "antiproof" against his vision of what a BDZ is.
So what we have to do here, is understand what turbolaser batteries mean, and look at the whole context, to properly gauge the orders passed on by Daala.
- Turbolaser batteries
Poe argues that KJA's use of the term "batteries" shows what he had in mind, and this much differs with what Trekkies usually understand.
He argues that KJA, when writing his book, used certain sources, such as the Star Wars Sourcebook, and other canon sources (read EU sources).
Basically, the idea is that KJA would have not taken a single nut of liberty in the way he'd label the ship's weapons. Nevermind, for example, if a Colt can be either called a revolver, a pistol, but also be called a firearm, a handgun, or a gun.
Please note that "gun" can, for example, also be used to described "a cannon with a long barrel and a relatively low angle of fire".
The idea that an author would have strictly adhered to the formulation of another book, while multiple choices are available, is rather absurd.
He gets an extract from another book, Isard's Revenge, which plays out as such (page 107):
"Moonshadow's gunners concentrated their fire along Direption's port edge, seeking to destroy the other ship's weaponry. Heavy turbolasers, heavy turbolaser cannons, and ion beams all played out, splashing red and blue energy across Direption's shields."
The Moonshadow and Direption were both Imperial II-class Star Destroyers.
The bad point is that Isard's Revenge is a book from Stackpole, not KJA. So mentionning such an extract couldn't be more irrelevant.
So we ask ourselves: are there any turbolaser batteries on ISDs Mark II?
Well, Poe thinks not:
So, here we are. The idea is that KJA would have not deviated from the SWSB's definition of turbolaser batteries, nor would he have disagreed with what that sourcebook said.First of all, a true BDZ op would consist of using the heaviest weapons on a Star Destroyer. According to the Star Wars Sourcebook, turbolaser batteries are mounted in five-gun units. Each battery contains three turrets, two of which are double-mounted, and one single-mounted. These are NOT the heavy turbolaser turrets that line both sides of the superstructure of Star Destroyers.
Click here for a picture of heavy turbolasers on a Star Destroyer. (Photo Courtesy: SWTC)
In his flawed opinion, it seems that all EU sources are 100% consistent, even in times when there was nothing such as the Holocron to monitor all this stuff.
Yes, we know that's not the case.
Please note the image he uses as evidence for his argument, that there are no turbolaser batteries on ISDs, since "turbolaser batteries are mounted in five-gun units". 3 turrets per battery.
On this image, what do we see, exactly?
Yes, turbolaser batteries.
Oh, sure, it's not the sourcebook's definition, but does Poe have any proof at all that KJA used the sourcebook definition?
Even more, what are these four neatly aligned pieces of artillery, according to that same sourcebook, if not precisely a battery of four turbolaser turrets?
So yes, a turbolaser battery is nothing more than a group or pieces of artillery. In that case, turbolasers. No matter their caliber.
So now that we know Daala orders all of these guns pointed at the planet and to fire at "full strenght", let's look at the other details. - Nature of the attack
What did Daala really want, precisely?
How did the assault play out?
Again, the extract:
"'Do we have plans for an attack, Admiral?' the weapons chief said from his station, looking disappointed as he assessed his array of weaponry.
'Yes,' Daala said. 'We strike from orbit. All turbolaser batteries, full strength. Fire at will, targeting any structures in the jungle.'"
Daala wanted the structures in the jungle targeted. Including the Massassi temple (the Great Temple), which according to the ANH novelisation, was already described as an exceptionally solid structure.
If there is a thing that is clear, it is that there is no proof that a Base Delta Zero was ordered. But this is not the point. We can see that Poe actually built a complete false argument, a strawman, for his whole page.
Without treading on the firepower part right now, let's look at the evidence used to argue that Daala wouldn't want her most powerful turbolasers to be liquifying the surface of the planet.
Here's why:
Poe shows that Pellaeon deployed ground troops (and an air cover):
The point would be to wonder... does Daala really care about the troops on the ground, and the TIE fighters in the sky?Darksaber (Hardcover)
pg.276: "Strike teams prepare," he said. "We launch in five minutes. All Terrain Scout Transports and jungle assault vehicles will be the first wave. TIE fighters will provide air cover."
This is hardly a command one would employ if the surface of a world is to be completely destroyed.
Well, not much, actually:
"Then an indiscriminate river of fire seared through the atmosphere, ripping the air apart in a screaming ionization path. A massive turbolaser bolt from orbit struck one of the TIE fighters and disintegrated it in a puff of released energy. The shockwave fuffeted the Falcon, making Han and Chewbacca scramble to regain control of the ship." Darksaber, page 356.
Though you got to be cautious about this event, what we see is that the starships were ordered to fire on the planet, while apparently there was still some semblance of imperial presence in the targets' vicinity.
The other question would be "is Daala totally sane?"
From what I understood, I don't think so. Even Poe notice the sort of disturbed behaviour she seems to bare at some point. Even though Poe interprets the exact quotes erroneously.
Let's resume:
Extremely interesting quote.Obviously, Pellaeon knows exactly what result Daala wants, which is backed up by her musings about the event:
pg.277: After today, when Daala departed in triumph, the jungle moon of Yavin 4 must be no more than a cinder. Every last Jedi student had to be killed, their bodies strwen about the burning jungle as an unmistakable message to those who would still dare resist the Empire.
Notice, for example, how for once, they do not take "Yavin 4 must be no more than a cinder" literally, contrary to their habits. Probably because the book shows that the after effects of the TL bombardment are nowhere that.
Other point; Pellaeon thinks that the best way to get rid of every Jedi student is to land troops and deploy an air cover.
This is in rather complete contradiction with the orders that Daala pass later on, when she's directly monitoring the operation. Apparently, contrary to Pellaeon, she doesn't seek meticulosity here, and is largely satisfied by a carpet bombing from orbit.
So, well, did Pellaeon really agree or understood Daala?
Not so sure in fact.
So the following part of Poe's argument becomes quite amusing:
Huh, maybe because the crust cannot be slagged, actually?Direct evidence of what Daala wants exactly. There can be no burning jungle if the crust is slagged.
Poe is looking at this from the perspective of a stance that has him believe in the (at least) 200 gigatons turbolasers... in order to support the reality of the 200 GT weapons.
That is nothing more than circular reasoning.
Based on Isard's Revenge (yes, Poe used that tactic, so we do), with weapons in the kiloton range, you'll never manage to slag the crust of a planet, unless you had lot of time on your hands, hundreds if not thousands of ships and lots of fuel to sustain the operation.
So maybe there's no crust being slagged because the ships precisely can't slag it.
That is funny. While Poe mounts arguments to show that Darksaber is not about a BDZ, remember that a BDZ operation even allows captures.Also, how the fuck do you destroy a world as a BDZ attack indicates, AND still leave corpses behind?
Do you garrote the Jedi Padawans, load their bodies in a shuttle, perform a BDZ, then dump their bodies back down on the planet? Obviously not.
Such an orbital attack as a BDZ would actually leave many corpses.
But let's leave that point aside.
We're not here to argue that there was a BDZ operation here, because there precisely was none.
BDZ aside, could there be another interpretation of the word "occupy"?Then we have the following quote, which proves that Daala is as mixed up as a transsexual at an abortion clinic:
pg.266: "You will take your fleet of Imperial Star Destroyers directly to Yavin 4 and proceed with its complete destruction. I will follow in the Night Hammer with sufficient force to occupy the Rebel base permanantly".
"Occupy the rebel base permanently"? Hmm...how does one occupy a base that is on a small jungle moon that she ordered "destroyed?" And how, ladies and gents, does one occupy a base that Pellaeon says they will destroy before the rebels know they are on the march? Curiouser and curiouser. Sure doesn't sound like anything even remotely resembling a BDZ will be taking place there.
Notice how definition 1 pretty much means "grab the attention".Occupy Definition:
1: to engage the attention or energies of.
2a: to take up (a place or extent in space) <this chair is occupied> <the fireplace will occupy this corner of the room>
2b: to take or fill (an extent in time). <the hobby occupies all of my free time>
3a: to take or hold possession or control of. <enemy troops occupied the ridge>
3b: to fill or perform the functions of (an office or position)4: to reside in as an owner or tenant.
In this light, the Arc Hammer could have been used to have the rebels focus their attention of Daala's ship.
But in all honesty, the "permanantly" bit simply fits way better with the other interpretations, as "seizing control of".
In the end, however, there's also the simple fact that if you consider the definitions that argue for "take control of", which is also possible, and possibly likely, in the end, Daala ordered the whole place to be destroyed, and had turbolasers fired at full strenght to do so.
The extract itself shows a lack of consistency. It also shows where the idea that it could be close to a BDZ attack comes from:
"You will take your fleet of Imperial Star Destroyers directly to Yavin 4 and proceed with its complete destruction."
If anything, that would surely prove Daala's insanity.
His gross misinterpretation of the Caamas incident aside, the point remains that turbolasers were ordered to fire at the structures on the surface, at full strenght.There can be no bodies left lying around in a non-existent jungle. Therefore, we once again know exactly what Daala ordered: the death of all Jedi students, the destruction of their training center, and a burning jungle.
She ALSO wants to occupy said destroyed training center, so once AGAIN, we have evidence against anything resembling a BDZ, which, in the example of Caamas, leaves firestorms burning for years on the surface, uses enough firepower that the vegetation boils off the world, leaves the world a dead rock, and the vast majority of the population dead on it. That would be a tad difficult to garrison, wouldn't you say?
In the end, the nature of Daala's orders is not even that clear, may not matter that much. It needed to be adressed, but we see that it can really go bothways.
Leaving this part behind us, we get to the crucial part of this argument: - The firepower
That's basically the spine of the debate here.
Let's get a couple of notes on the effects of the bombardment, which happens a couple of pages later:
The quotes are all from the Obsidian pages hosted at ST-v-SW.net."'Do we have plans for an attack, Admiral?' the weapons chief said from his station, looking disappointed as he assessed his array of weaponry.
'Yes,' Daala said. 'We strike from orbit. All turbolaser batteries, full strength. Fire at will, targeting any structures in the jungle.'"
["Darksaber", p. 311]
"The Knight Hammer's weapons chief fired another volley of deadly turbolasers, and another, and another."
["Darksaber", p. 311]
"Even from her place in the Knight Hammer, high above Yavin 4, she could already see the forests starting to burn."
["Darksaber", p. 311]
"Callista looked up and saw another blast come down. With a single strike, the Super Star Destroyer obliterated an acre of ages-old growth. One lucky shot could level the Great Temple."
["Darksaber", p. 350]
"Then an indiscriminate river of fire seared through the atmosphere, ripping the air apart in a screaming ionization path. A massive turbolaser bolt from orbit struck one of the TIE fighters and disintegrated it in a puff of released energy. The shockwave fuffeted the Falcon, making Han and Chewbacca scramble to regain control of the ship."
["Darksaber", p. 356]
"Another turbolaser bolt came down in the distance, igniting a portion of the jungle kilometers away."
["Darksaber", p. 356]
First, let's start by saying that you don't even need kilotons of energy dumped into a forest to end with the devatating effect of fires that could be seen from space.
Secondly, bolts obliterating on acre of trees, Calista beeing able to witness the action rather easily, all show that the weapons are in the kiloton range.
Poe thinks that the low level of firepower is actually easily explained by the context:
I find it funny that Poe would argue that the temple absorbing bolts proves that they were weak, and thus emphasize the idea that it was a pure tactical strike here, while the same quote has Luke thinking that "no weapon could penetrate the exceptionally dense stone of the ancient temple", and immediately considering that the only system which could achieve that would be the Death Star.
Of course not. Daala wouldn't want to kill her own troops. That's why she ordered the full power turbolaser battery blasts against the STRUCTURES in the jungle, NOT Y4's surface. Obviously, she wasn't about to fire full power blasts into the jungle itself. The full power blasts from the turbolaser batteries were easily absorbed by the Great Temple:Trekkie wrote:There is no 200 gigaton hit on the surface of the planet, or anything even close.
Darksaber (Hardcover)
pg.307-308: Forest fires raged nearby; even the great Massassi temple appeared changed, blackened from air strikes, but it seemed structurally intact.
Which is backed up by the canon STAR WARS novelization:
pg.146: Theoretically, no weapon could penetrate the exceptionally dense stone of the ancient temple, but Luke had seen the shattered remains of Alderaan and knew that for those in the incredible battle station the entire moon would present simply another abstract problem in mass-energy conversion.
Despite Callista's ill-informed opinion:
Darksaber (Hardcover)
pg.325: One lucky shot could level the Great Temple.
And since the jungle surrounded the Great Temple, its no wonder it was set ablaze:
Darksaber (Hardcover)
pg.286: Tall fires in the jungles surrounding the temple complex crackled and rose into the sky.
Anyway, as I've shown, again, you're incorrect.
At that point, it actually means that: that funky piece of a temple would withstand any traditional weapon Luke is aware of.
This, in all honestly, would actually reveal that even the most powerful traditional weapons would fail at destroying the temple.
With turbolasers firing at full strenght and failing to do more than scorching the surface of the temple, there is not surprise to see why Luke reaches such a conclusion.
Besides, you remember how Poe (awkwardly) used an extract from Isard's Revenge to support his argument?
Well, we've seen that it was a pointless move from his part, but let's read it again, shall we?
"Moonshadow's gunners concentrated their fire along Direption's port edge, seeking to destroy the other ship's weaponry. Heavy turbolasers, heavy turbolaser cannons, and ion beams all played out, splashing red and blue energy across Direption's shields."
Page 109.
Now read another extract, from the same book:
"Moonshadow was coming up and turning to port, its port-side batteries firing against Direption's aft shields. Red and blue laser and ion cannon fire pumped terajoules of energy into the shields, but somehow they stayed up."
SW-v-ST.net indicates that this extract was found on page 111, but considering that the editions may have been different, like possibly one being a hardcover or else, the extract could in fact come from the same page, or just be a few pages distant. Even more, the second extract may even happen earlier than the first one.
Anyway, first, notice the use of the term "batteries", for broadside salvos.
Nothing surprising, considering the position of Heavy Turbolasers on ISDs Mk II.
Sure, that shoots Poe's argument a tad more.
But above all, notice the mention of "terajoules of energy".
If you needed another (again) demonstration of his cherry picking, that one would be quite good.
Most interesting is that it actually pretty much fits with the descriptions given in Darksaber, firepower wise.
For the record, terajoules of energy is the equivalent of kilotons of energy.
Poe's friends would be quick to argue that "terajoules" doesn't preclude the existence of petajoules of energy, as thousands of terajoules, if not more.
But that is stupid. We're talking about spaceships. It's all about an advanced civilization. It's science fiction mixed to fantasy. The people in Star Wars would have no reason to think in terms of kilotons only, even for figures in the gigatons (at least 6 orders of magnitude higher than kilotons).
Same for terajoules here. Do you know many people who actually talk about terajoules in their everyday life, and only terajoules?
Not me. From the moment you're actually going to use scientific prefixes such as "tera" associated to energy figures, there's simply ZERO reason not to use "peta" or "exa" prefixes when they would be required.
It's nonsensical to argue that terajoules means in fact petajoules or exajoules, or more.
And of course, there's zero reason to believe that these ships would be holding back.
Earlier on in the same book, on page 7, we can find the following extract:
"Two New Republic Assault Frigates, the Tyrant's Bane and Liberty Star, cruised in toward the Golan station. Though each ship was less than a third as long as the station, they bristled with fifty laser cannons and poured terajoules of coherent light into the Golan."
Leaving the coherent light bit aside - one part being in error does not make the whole wrong - we again see that capital ships, when attacking a heavy defense platform, fire terajoules of energy at their target.
Of course, the rate of fire expected in such cases will be pretty high, considering what we see in movies and how fast turbolasers fire.
But as we see, we're very, very far from the necessary base exajoules necessary for the gigaton figures Poe is fond of. - Conclusion
Darksaber, along Isard's Revenge actually, represent two cases, in the EU, which are what we could call low end firepower figures - only in regards of their gigatons/teratons claims.
But above all, it is interesting to see that basically, it pretty much fits quite well with the firepower displayed in the films.
Even in the Revenge of the Sith novelisation, as a sign of examplary and impressive demonstration, a turbolaser bolt is said to be able to vapourize a small town (only).
Even when being literaly, this doesn't make the figure reach more than a couple of megatons, top.
This came within a context full of descriptions about the weapons used in the current concentrated naval engagement occuring in orbit of Coruscant.
And of course, if you don't take the comment literally, it means much less firepower.
But the most important point here, is to remember that Darksaber is just as canon as the ICS, and presents reliable (low end) firepower figures, which anyone is allowed to use as references.
This also applies to the extracts from Isard's Revenge.