JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicity?

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Jedi Master Spock
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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Jedi Master Spock » Wed Jan 05, 2011 7:09 am

The problem with having a site-wide canon policy is that the question of the rules of evidence is both too important and too trivial to resolve by fiat.

Ultimately, the question of whether or not to include EU is a minor one. On the whole, if you're handling the EU well, it's not actually going to be that terribly far off from the movies; and even if you believe that the EU continuity is genuinely distinct from canonical Star Wars of Lucas, there's still that separate continuity that people could debate within.

If someone wants to compare Thrawn to Picard, there's no way to do that without talking about the EU, and people will want to compare Thrawn to Picard. If someone wants to pit Zak Kebron against Chewbacca, so what if Brikar don't ever show up in the Star Trek canon? It's still an interesting question.

In that sense, having a site canon policy is trivial. It only applies for some types of debate. In another sense, determining what the rules of evidence should be - including both what materials are considered at all and how conflicts are resolved between them - is too important to be left up to fiat. It needs to be an active part of the discussion. Some people will be right; some people will be wrong.

If you like, you can refuse to debate with people who don't play by the rules you think are right. Just reply to what you feel is relevant, cut off the rest of their reply and say "Well, as far as I'm concerned, that's all apocryphal material, and if you'd like to debate me about that, go make a thread in RoE and I'll debate you about that there." And if there's nothing for you to reply to, you might not even bother with saying that.

There are quite a few things about the way I set up the forum rules here at SFJ that people have told me wouldn't work. People told me that there was no way we could actually maintain polite discussion. People told me there was no way we'd ever get anywhere without having rules about debate etiquette and fallacies. And you're not the first person to ask me to lay down a site-wide canon policy. But as far as I'm concerned, the forums here have been a pretty successful experiment.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Wed Jan 05, 2011 11:48 am

I think the EU is way, WAY off the movies.
In "Dark Apprentice, the rise of Darth Vader" etc. we have inter-galactic hyperdrive, outrageous Force-abilities (like Thrawn bringing down a Star Destroyer using the Force), Trilithium-ripoff "Sun Crushers" etc. Lucas said it's a separate universe, for obvious reasons: other than his basic guidelines, authors are free to wank away regarding power-figures.

This idea of "handling the EU properly" is also questionable, since there's nothing ensuring it-- there's hundreds of SW novels for warsies to wank from.

For example, how are any of SDN's claims erroneous here at http://stardestroyer.net/Empire/Tech/ , if we accept the EU as canon? 200 gigatons per turbolaser-shot, a 400-billion star galaxy with 12 million inhabited star-systems, and speeds of 3.5 million c etc. are all perfectly supportable from the EU's wanked-up claims.

It's not a matter of solving things by fiat, it's a matter of appeal to a neutral authority-figure in order to settle disputes-- the basic requirement of any social contract.
Otherwise, any troll can simply natter away over and over, and it's a stalemate no matter what, since the EU-wanker can simply say "blah blah blah, I'm right".

For example, SWST has been telling outright lies regarding official SW canon policy, and just goes on repeating them, and attacking anyone who disagrees. For example:

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:...
The official Lucasarts canon policy still has EU sources as canon. George Lucas's informal statements do not change this. Interestingly enough, the ICS's would not really fall under this category; they're directly related to the movies, and are actually cross sections of the movies; essentially reference guides. George Lucas was referring to story lines after the movie, not reference guides to the movies themselves. This is further reinforced by the fact that the EU products have to be approved by Lucasarts.
Or claiming that "Lucastarts official canon-policy includes the EU as canon" and "Leland Chase (sic) specifically refuted Darkstar's claims about canon," and other outright lies.
And then he attacks anyone who disagrees.

To wit:
StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Picard, you really are darkstar's biggest fan, are you? You do realize that Leland Chase personally disagreed with darkstar on darkstar's canon policy interpretationis, right?
My response:
In an August 2005 interview in Starlog magazine, Lucas said the following:
STARLOG: "The Star Wars Universe is so large and diverse. Do you ever find yourself confused by the subsidiary material that's in the novels, comics, and other offshoots?"
LUCAS: "I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
Meanwhile, Lucas' statements in Starlog were commented on in a December 7, 2005 post on the starwars.com forums by Leland Chee, who maintains Lucas Licensing's continuity database:
CHEE: "GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."
So Leland Chee (NOT "Chase") was commenting on LUCAS'S statements-- NOT Darkstar's or anyone else's. And so these statements by Lucas CANNOT be "informal statements" which can be dismissed due to Chee's comments ON them!

Just because the EU meets certain tenets set by Lucas, does NOT make it part of the same universe-- particularly since Lucas SAYS so.


His response:
"the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not."

Can you read?
So even when I SHOVE the context right in his face, what does he do?
He PICKS his desired snippet directly OUT of context, and says "can you read?"

Ok, if someone wants to discuss the EU like comparing Thrawn or Prawn or whatever, then they're accepting the EU; however if we're talking the DS's power-output etc. then there's no point in it.

A Trek v Wars discussion obviously wouldn't consider the EU, since it considers only the authors' intentions (i.e. Lucas v Paramount)-- not the dozens or hundreds of authors with no common oversight beyond Lucas's basic guidelines. No one is going over the wanked-out novels with a fine-tooth comb to make sure the figures square up with the movies-- again, it's a separate universe, i.e. the bargain-bin of oblivion.

For this reason, it would be a good idea to have at least some policy for handling the EU, such as keeping it out of non-EU discussions, or limiting it to discussions involving the EU.
But otherwise, SDN-wankers will keep on lying about it.

Lying is trolling, but I don't want to have to go proving it every time; it simply ruins the discussion for everyone when it becomes a canon-war.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Picard » Wed Jan 05, 2011 6:20 pm

I think the EU is way, WAY off the movies.
Star Wars EU is non-canon separate universe, like Star Trek EU. It will be better to divide Trek/Wars subforum into two parts, one where only canon will be accepted, another where only EU willl come into play. Beacouse current situation of putting SW EU against ST canon is absurd.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Jan 06, 2011 6:00 pm

This:
The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."
States quite clearly that the EU does indeed follow GL's vision, since it has to follow guidelines set by GL himself, outside of the movies.
How can it be clearer?

Also:
The Dude wrote:This post reeks of KirkSkywalker. I remember him saying the exact same thing to me.
Do you really still doubt for one second it's him?
UniveralNetGuru uses the exact same sentence building, the exact same anti-EU arguments stated exactly as KSW/SS/WYD/PDT...
When it quacks like a duck, and walks like a duck... :)

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1356 » Thu Jan 06, 2011 10:46 pm

Congrats, you guys have caught your own zinc type infestation

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by mojo » Fri Jan 07, 2011 5:46 am

just a question waaaaaay out of left field - if george lucas somehow managed to get locked into an interview with a st/sw debator, and was himself asked 'who would win?'.. would you accept the answer? suppose he said outright, 'star wars would kick the crap out of star trek. the whole thing would be over in two seconds', would that end the debate? or, contrariwise, what if he gave it to star trek? 'pffft. star trek would DESTROY star wars. my little guys wouldn't stand a chance.' would you accept that?

i ask because the only thing anyone seems to agree on is that anything HE decides on is absolute truth, at least for star wars. would his opinion on the debate be accepted the same way his opinion on star wars does? would his opinion be 'canon' for the debate?

and here's one step further - if you don't accept his opinion as the be all/end all of the debate, what if he were to simply wank his own numbers so high it would be impossible to argue for star trek at all? what if he simply said 'well, from now on it's star wars canon that a turbolaser can blow up an entire galaxy, and the only reason you don't see them do it is because they have them dialed waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back in the movies. also, force users can control any sentient being anywhere at will, it's just that even sith normally find that to be going too far, but for some reason, beings from the star trek universe are instantly seen as an abomination and forced to kill themselves en masse. and all of this is now G canon.' would THAT end the debate?

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Who is like God arbour » Fri Jan 07, 2011 11:56 am

Nice question.

It deals with the same problem I have tried to explain to UniveralNetguru.

Even George Lucas words or intentions are not the A and O concerning canon.

Several canon policies are possible and usually canon is determined without considering the intention of the author of a work. Best example for this is the Biblical canon.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by 2046 » Fri Jan 07, 2011 12:01 pm

An official ruling is counterproductive.

However, it would be nice to have a separate forum for debates inclusive of EU and similar material. Nothing disappoints me more than to see a good thread topic devolve into irrelevancy because some non-canon Trek or Wars nonsense starts getting discussed.

As we watch TCW trample the EU, for instance, it becomes clear that attempts to mix those universes result in intellectual chaos, just as surely as attempting to mix the burgeoning Pocket Books Trek continuity would utterly screw up Trek-related discussions.

With this crowd the Pocket Books thing is not yet an issue, but over time it very well could be. So then, even worse than now, you'd have every thread requiring a checkbox system for what is canon within it or something, which just gets messy.

Alternately, EU-phile threads should be tagged in the title, like "(EU) Death Star Blah Blah".

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Jan 07, 2011 2:57 pm

mojo wrote:just a question waaaaaay out of left field - if george lucas somehow managed to get locked into an interview with a st/sw debator, and was himself asked 'who would win?'.. would you accept the answer? suppose he said outright, 'star wars would kick the crap out of star trek. the whole thing would be over in two seconds', would that end the debate? or, contrariwise, what if he gave it to star trek? 'pffft. star trek would DESTROY star wars. my little guys wouldn't stand a chance.' would you accept that?
I wouldn't, because it flys in the face of all I've seen, all the analyses I've seen that show that there is no clear floor mopping from either side on the other.
I use analyses from SDN, from Darkstar, from JMS, my own interpretations and analyses, and the picture I get is that the answer is not a simple or clear cut.
GL can say whatever he wants, it doesn't change what's shown onscreen... :)
2046 wrote:As we watch TCW trample the EU, for instance, it becomes clear that attempts to mix those universes result in intellectual chaos,
Which is why I like the "if it contradicts higher canon, it is wrong" way of thinking.
Not all the EU is crap, and some ideas and stories are interesting, and are definitely SW in feeling and story, but I do agree that between TCW and the EU, TCW definitely shows us a closer vision to the movies than the EU, in fact it fits erfectly well with RotS and AotC...

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Lucky » Sat Jan 08, 2011 3:45 am

Praeothmin wrote:
mojo wrote:just a question waaaaaay out of left field - if george lucas somehow managed to get locked into an interview with a st/sw debator, and was himself asked 'who would win?'.. would you accept the answer? suppose he said outright, 'star wars would kick the crap out of star trek. the whole thing would be over in two seconds', would that end the debate? or, contrariwise, what if he gave it to star trek? 'pffft. star trek would DESTROY star wars. my little guys wouldn't stand a chance.' would you accept that?
I wouldn't, because it flys in the face of all I've seen, all the analyses I've seen that show that there is no clear floor mopping from either side on the other.
I use analyses from SDN, from Darkstar, from JMS, my own interpretations and analyses, and the picture I get is that the answer is not a simple or clear cut.
GL can say whatever he wants, it doesn't change what's shown onscreen... :)
2046 wrote:As we watch TCW trample the EU, for instance, it becomes clear that attempts to mix those universes result in intellectual chaos,
Which is why I like the "if it contradicts higher canon, it is wrong" way of thinking.
Not all the EU is crap, and some ideas and stories are interesting, and are definitely SW in feeling and story, but I do agree that between TCW and the EU, TCW definitely shows us a closer vision to the movies than the EU, in fact it fits erfectly well with RotS and AotC...
To bad not everyone agrees with you that higher canon should simply over rule lower canon.>_<
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Talk:Ryl ... ote_Ryloth

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