JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicity?

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JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicity?

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 9:55 am

I 'd ike to request a board policy for or against EU canonicity. I think it would be a good idea, since 90% of vs. arguments come down to that very thing, and then it becomes a quibble-fest over the subject.

While Lucas et al. have made their feelings clear, we still have differences of opinion by different users; for example, the mods on SDN claim that SW EU is canon, but ST's EU isn't-- even on the movie-novels.

Various users here on SFJ have also made extensive claims based on the EU, and so they all come down to a matter of canonicity; and likewise I'm tired of repeating the same old fight about it-- including the following paste:
LUCAS: I don't read that stuff. I haven't read any of the novels. I don't know anything about that world. That's a different world than my world. But I do try to keep it consistent. The way I do it now is they have a Star Wars Encyclopedia. So if I come up with a name or something else, I look it up and see if it has already been used. When I said [other people] could make their own Star Wars stories, we decided that, like Star Trek, we would have two universes: My universe and then this other one. They try to make their universe as consistent with mine as possible, but obviously they get enthusiastic and want to go off in other directions."
- George Lucas, Flannelled One, Aug. 2005 - "New Hopes" interview in Starlog #337


"The only relevant official continuities are the current versions of the films alone, and the combined current version of the films along with whatever else we've got in the Holocron. You're never going to know what George's view of the universe beyond the films at any given time because it is constantly evolving. It remains elastic until it gets committed to film or another official source. Even then, we know there's always room for change.
[...] Anything not in the current version of the films is irrelevant to Film only continuity."
--Leland Chee, 2006 at StarWars.Com:



"Within the issue of Starlog magazine with the War of the Worlds cover is an interview article with George Lucas. He stated something which he had said before, which is that he doesn't follow the SW EU, he doesn't read the books or comics. He also said that when they started doing all this (which is allowing other storytellers to tell their own SW tales), he had decreed that the Star Wars Universe would be split into two just like Star Trek (I don't know nuts about Star Trek, so don't ask me about that), one would be his own universe (the six episode movie saga), the other would be a whole other universe (the Expanded Universe). He continued to say that the EU tries as much as possible to tie in to his own universe, but sometimes they move into a whole other line of their own.”
--- Sue Rostoni, Lucas Licensing (LLP Managing Editor), Sept. 2005 - StarWars.com forum post:
However despite this, SDN still has its policy-- which is fine, since it's a free world-wide web, and so they're free to weave theirs as tangled as they want.

The problem, of course, is when it inspires copycats and newbs to begin following suit, and wasting everyone's time with huge wankfests based purely ON the EU. For example, you-know-who claiming "DEATH STAR POWER FIGS CONFIRMED" is 100% taken directly from the EU-- along with various other threads which claim to "prove" similar pro-Wars, anti-Trek claims.

If we can get a policy-ruling for this board, it would REALLY make things a lot simpler for everyone. Otherwise we'll get the same arguments from Warsies about how this or that SW novel, comic-book or fan-fic said this or that-- even though it's contradicted by everything in the movies, they'll just deny the blatant contradictions.

(And of course, then there's their various ridiculous arguments "proving" EU to be canon, often based on outright lies and ignorance regarding various policies and persons-- all 100% false, but impossible to deny unless one has extensive knowledge about the inside-scoop, which most people DON'T have).

So as long as there's no policy here on EU canonicity, then every argument is pretty much stalemated by that one simple fact, as it all comes down to some Warsie drawing from the SW novels.

We can always easily argue what's visibly on-screen; but when they mine the novels for the most outrageous power-figs, then all we can do is deny canonicity, if any ounce of sanity is to be preserved; otherwise we are stuck arguing the novels in question, and that's pretty must just escalates the size of the "pile," and it grows indefinitely.

In any event SFJ owns the site, so it's your call.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by The Dude » Sun Jan 02, 2011 1:46 pm

It won't matter. If JMS declares that movies only are canon, people will still argue that the EU is valid, and the same if he ruled that it was all valid, people will argue for movies only.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:16 pm

The Dude wrote:It won't matter. If JMS declares that movies only are canon, people will still argue that the EU is valid, and the same if he ruled that it was all valid, people will argue for movies only.
Then they'll be dealt with by the mods for violating policy, won't they?

You rail on me for making a point of SDN's wanky EU-mania, but this is where it comes in: i.e. it enables EU-wankers to come here and spew their EU-arguments all over the place, since the policy doesn't say they can't.

As I pointed out, Wong Inc. has this prophetic "vision" where Leland Chee "speaks" to him as a messenger of what Lucas "really" means; and it fools ignorant newbs to believe it-- then we're left arguing with them, since it's only us "agenda driven infidels" against the Prophet Elijah Wong.... no, thanks.

If you like arguing with SWST's lame EU-wanks, fine; I don't, since that's just a no-win situation: a wise man shuns a fool, but silence indicates consent.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by The Dude » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:24 pm

So you want to create a movie only wank site to oppose SDN's EU-wank-mania? Brillant! And folks wonder why the VS debate is so hostile.

That said, I don't criticize you for pointing out SDN's flaws. I criticize you for acting like a nutcase.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:32 pm

The Dude wrote:So you want to create a movie only wank site to oppose SDN's EU-wank-mania? Brillant! And folks wonder why the VS debate is so hostile.

That said, I don't criticize you for pointing out SDN's flaws. I criticize you for acting like a nutcase.
More like you act like a short-sighted troll.
No, it's hostile because there isn't a rule based on actual canon-policy; SWST's already drivng people crazy with his mind-games, and there's planty more where that came from.
Last edited by User1462 on Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by The Dude » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:38 pm

You that you can specify in a thread whether you want the EU used in the discussion or not right?

As for SWST, I scroll over him, try it. Less headaches.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:39 pm

The Dude wrote:You that you can specify in a thread whether you want the EU used in the discussion or not right?

As for SWST, I scroll over him, try it. Less headaches.
So you're an isolationist-- perfect!

Sorry, but silence indicates consent; when people come here and read the threads, they see his arguments standing uncontested.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by The Dude » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:44 pm

No, I come here for fun. If it's not fun to discuss something, I'm generally not interested. SW vs ST isn't a serious or important topic for me, so I'm not going to waste time beating my head against the wall. Remember I've been around this stuff since 2004. Eventually you realize that your not going to change anyones mind and you may as well have a laugh.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:51 pm

The Dude wrote:No, I come here for fun. If it's not fun to discuss something, I'm generally not interested. SW vs ST isn't a serious or important topic for me, so I'm not going to waste time beating my head against the wall. Remember I've been around this stuff since 2004. Eventually you realize that your not going to change anyones mind and you may as well have a laugh.
Great, if you love chaos. Well I'm asking JMS, not you, so thanks and bye.
Last edited by User1462 on Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by The Dude » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:54 pm

He's going to say no. Guess how I know? I asked the same thing years back.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:55 pm

The Dude wrote:He's going to say no. Guess how I know? I asked the same thing years back.
Damn, I guess great minds really do think alike. :D
What did you ask?

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by The Dude » Sun Jan 02, 2011 2:58 pm

IIRC I asked about setting a canon policy for the site.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:10 pm

The Dude wrote:IIRC I asked about setting a canon policy for the site.
Based on what evidence, however?
Canonwars.com didn't have the info up then, I'll bet.

SFJ is based on the facts according to Paramount and Lucas; so once these are presented then one can either abide by them, or ignore them-- in which case it's pretty much fanfic.

SDN's canon-policy even claims to follow official policy, but their reading is simply wanked to their liking through "Cartman" style mental gymnastics, as well as cult-like prophetics and mind-reading psychosis.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Sun Jan 02, 2011 3:44 pm

The Dude wrote:It won't matter. If JMS declares that movies only are canon, people will still argue that the EU is valid, and the same if he ruled that it was all valid, people will argue for movies only.
There.

Besides, I don't think netguru has debated that much compared to some members here, and we've come around this debate. We already work with both policies rather fluently, no need to set a rule in stone if said stone will be part of the pavement.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:07 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote:
The Dude wrote:It won't matter. If JMS declares that movies only are canon, people will still argue that the EU is valid, and the same if he ruled that it was all valid, people will argue for movies only.
There.

Besides, I don't think netguru has debated that much compared to some members here, and we've come around this debate. We already work with both policies rather fluently, no need to set a rule in stone if said stone will be part of the pavement.
Please, all debates come down to canonicity, since you can always find some EU-wank to support anything. I've already shown that hypermatter could destroy the universe if you wanted.

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