JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicity?

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:40 pm

I only want to note that the truth can not be defined by law or a decree. Insofar JMS can not decide, if the EU is part of the canon. He can only forbid that this fact is debated at all.

The better solution would be, if in the OP is defined, what is to be accepted as canon. That is then only valid for that one thread. In the next thread, another canon policy can be chosen.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 4:58 pm

WILGA wrote:I only want to note that the truth can not be defined by law or a decree. Insofar JMS can not decide, if the EU is part of the canon. He can only forbid that this fact is debated at all.

The better solution would be, if in the OP is defined, what is to be accepted as canon. That is then only valid for that one thread. In the next thread, another canon policy can be chosen.
Then you might as well allow fanfic as well. Who died and made the OP god?

The EU is obviously NOT part of the canon, but I'd just like to know if this board's policy supports that; it's gotta be one or the other-- it can't be both.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sun Jan 02, 2011 5:54 pm

UniveralNetguru wrote:Then you might as well allow fanfic as well. Who died and made the OP god?
Why not?

Does it harm anyone if in the OP it is specified, that certain fanfictions (or even all) are admitted?

Nobody is forced to participate in a debate. Everyone can decide that it is too ludicrous and turn its back on such a thread anytime.


UniveralNetguru wrote:The EU is obviously NOT part of the canon, but I'd just like to know if this board's policy supports that; it's gotta be one or the other-- it can't be both.
While I understand your argumentation and am myself the opinion that Star Wars canon policy is no canon policy at all because the term » canon « suggests something that is a little bit more permanently established and not changed every time a new work appears and all that is already there has to be seen in a new light or someone changes its opinion about what is supposed to be canon and what is not, I do not feel the need to forbid people to argue about it.

If you do not like it, do not participate in such debates. If you don't want such debates in a thread, you have opened, simply state in your OP that only movies are accepted as canon.

And I'm not your opinion, that » the EU is obviously NOT part of the canon « because I think that it is possible that there are several canon policies. There could be the canon policy of George Lucas and then there could be the canon policy of Leland Chee. If you look how different the biblical canon is, you will notice that several canons for the same works are possible. The Jewish canon, the Samaritan canon and the Christian canons are all different although all three share some texts. And the Christian biiblical canons are even more divided.

There is a name for those who are thinking that they know the truth about canon and that all others are wrong and that it should be forbidden to debate the question, what canon is: Fundamentalists.

Be careful that you do not become such a fundamentalist. Let others have their opinion. After all, canon policy is not a matter of right and wrong as it is with most questions in natural sciences. The term » canon « comes from Theology. And that is a » Geisteswissenschaft «.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:02 pm

Your whole argument is a "Geisteswissenschaft," you don't understand ANYTHING. ONLY Lucas's policy counts for SW, for reasons I've made clear: i.e. an author must INTEND something, in order for it to count.
Example: in the movie Fellowship of the Ring, the balrog is shown causing earthquakes and breaking through stone caverns; however Tolkien's pat response was "he may think he knows more about balrogs than I do, but he cannot expect me to agree with him."
With SW it's opposite: i.e. only the movies show Lucas's intent, and everything else is someone else's idea.

So you're saying that unless the OP specifies a policy, then anything goes. This is silly; how many threads here have an OP doing that? None I can see.

Any chance at an orderly discussion requires a sane policy on what's canon and what isn't, otherwise everything goes to crap.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:26 pm

heres a very simple answer to this we found worked really well over on rumbles

Declare them to separate universes..and let the OP'er decide which to use in his thread thus eliminating the issue entirely

and if some one tries to complain? make it a temp ban worthy offense

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Who is like God arbour » Sun Jan 02, 2011 10:56 pm

UniveralNetguru wrote:Your whole argument is a "Geisteswissenschaft," you don't understand ANYTHING.
Thank you for that vote of confidence.

Although I have the impression that you have understood nothing of what I wrote.

But that is the problem with fundamentalists. They do not really listen to people who have another opinion than they have.

I recommend that you learn a little bit about the term » canon «. Maybe you can show me when an » authors intend « ever had something to do with canon.

The authors of the texts that are part of the bible and part of Christian Biblical canons had never thought that their texts will be someday part of a canon.

Hopkins has not known, that his works would someday be firmly established in the canon of English poetry.

When Shakespeare wrote his works (if he really existed ...), he didn't know that there will be a Shakespeare canon someday.

What is and what is not canon was in the history of mankind always decided from others but the author of a work.

And the question, what is and what is not Star Wars canon will continue even when George Lucas is long dead. And then several different canons will exist and holy books are written with what is considered canon. And some canons are fixated only on the movies and some canons may include all that was licensed by Lucas Films. And different groups will form and think that they know the truth and that they have to convince the others of the truth and, if that fails, have to destroy them. And then there will be the thirty years lasting Star Wars wars between the purists and the comprehensives. ...

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:27 pm

the staff on the site have ultimate sway over whats canon or whats not..its their forum..not GL's

but that being said why shouldn't an oper decide whats canon for his threads?

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:30 pm

Original intent of the author is, and always was, the sole factor in ANY interpretation of any law or other writing.

Lucas is also the owner to the rights to SW, as well as the author; therefore he's the final authority on canonicity. You can write an encyclopedia general canon, it won't change the meaning of what goes and what doesn't.

Likewise, you haven't provided any links to OP's laying out a canon-policy, so it's assumed you don't have any-- and so it's equally silly to claim that this is the policy, as it is to claim that every thread should have its own. By that token, any thread which doesn't specify a policy, is a free-for-all.

In any event, the site should have that policy, since I'm through with SWST's lying and trolling about it. If an OP wants to set a "what if" thread, then that's fine; but the board needs a default-policy in the absence of such, otherwise it becomes a free-for-all from EU to fanwanking.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:32 pm

Admiral Breetai wrote:the staff on the site have ultimate sway over whats canon or whats not..its their forum..not GL's

but that being said why shouldn't an oper decide whats canon for his threads?
First of all, they'd have to do it IN the OP, not afterward, since the respondents have just as much right in the converation once the topic is defined; the OP only has rights in the thread after the initial message; so the initial post can only contain rules to the thread-topic, like saying "what if there were no photon torpedoes" etc.

Second, this means that if the OP DOESN'T set a canon-policy, then it's a free-for all to claim EVERYTHING as canon-- and then the thread become a canon-quibble.
This naturally shows the need for a default-policy, since otherwise it places this burden on every OP to either set out a canon-policy, or give every wanker a carte-blanche to wank away.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Sun Jan 02, 2011 11:46 pm

WILGA wrote:I only want to note that the truth can not be defined by law or a decree. Insofar JMS can not decide, if the EU is part of the canon. He can only forbid that this fact is debated at all.

The better solution would be, if in the OP is defined, what is to be accepted as canon. That is then only valid for that one thread. In the next thread, another canon policy can be chosen.
Sure, and let's all settle everything out of court too, and have everyone make up their own rules.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Trinoya » Mon Jan 03, 2011 12:35 am

I'm pretty sure the official site policy is to declare what is admissible cannon in your OP. Nothing else. And it shouldn't change at all and no official ruling should be made.

Our open ability to debate cannon on this board is one of the reasons were considered a more even minded board in general amongst the community.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by The Dude » Mon Jan 03, 2011 1:02 am

UniveralNetguru wrote:
WILGA wrote:I only want to note that the truth can not be defined by law or a decree. Insofar JMS can not decide, if the EU is part of the canon. He can only forbid that this fact is debated at all.

The better solution would be, if in the OP is defined, what is to be accepted as canon. That is then only valid for that one thread. In the next thread, another canon policy can be chosen.
Sure, and let's all settle everything out of court too, and have everyone make up their own rules.
This post reeks of KirkSkywalker. I remember him saying the exact same thing to me.

That said, we're discussing a fictional movie universe, not the bloody law.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Jan 03, 2011 9:48 am

UniveralNetguru wrote:Original intent of the author is, and always was, the sole factor in ANY interpretation of any law or other writing.
WRONG
If you had any clue about what you are talking, you wouldn't fabricate such buǀǀshit.

See here and here.

And I have provided several examples where texts were included into a canon without approval of their authors. But of course, you ignore that like any fundamentalist ignores what does not confirms the own opinion.


UniveralNetguru wrote:Lucas is also the owner to the rights to SW, as well as the author; therefore he's the final authority on canonicity. You can write an encyclopedia general canon, it won't change the meaning of what goes and what doesn't.
This argument depends on your assumption that authors will is relevant for the determination of what is canon. For this you haven't provided any evidence while I have shown several examples where texts were included into a canon without approval of their authors.


UniveralNetguru wrote:Likewise, you haven't provided any links to OP's laying out a canon-policy, so it's assumed you don't have any-- and so it's equally silly to claim that this is the policy, as it is to claim that every thread should have its own. By that token, any thread which doesn't specify a policy, is a free-for-all.
DO NOT STRAWMAN ME!!!
I did not claim that it is the policy of this board that canon has to be laid out in the OP.
I said that I'm the opinion that this would be preferential to your wish to forbid any debates about it. To be exact, I wrote:
        • WILGA wrote:I only want to note that the truth can not be defined by law or a decree. Insofar JMS can not decide, if the EU is part of the canon. He can only forbid that this fact is debated at all.

          The better solution would be, if in the OP is defined, what is to be accepted as canon. That is then only valid for that one thread. In the next thread, another canon policy can be chosen.

UniveralNetguru wrote:In any event, the site should have that policy, since I'm through with SWST's lying and trolling about it.
Then simply stop to debate with him. Or are you unable to do so?


UniveralNetguru wrote:If an OP wants to set a "what if" thread, then that's fine; but the board needs a default-policy in the absence of such, otherwise it becomes a free-for-all from EU to fanwanking.
But that was not what you recommended. You » request a board policy for or against EU canonicity. « You did not request a »  a default-policy in the absence of « any determinations in the OP. You wrote:
        • UniveralNetguru wrote:I 'd ike to request a board policy for or against EU canonicity. I think it would be a good idea, since 90% of vs. arguments come down to that very thing, and then it becomes a quibble-fest over the subject.
And when I replied that I think that the better solution would be that such things are determined in the OP ...
        • WILGA wrote:I only want to note that the truth can not be defined by law or a decree. Insofar JMS can not decide, if the EU is part of the canon. He can only forbid that this fact is debated at all.

          The better solution would be, if in the OP is defined, what is to be accepted as canon. That is then only valid for that one thread. In the next thread, another canon policy can be chosen.
... you nearly jumped at my throat.
        • UniveralNetguru wrote:Then you might as well allow fanfic as well. Who died and made the OP god?

          The EU is obviously NOT part of the canon, but I'd just like to know if this board's policy supports that; it's gotta be one or the other-- it can't be both.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:00 am

UniveralNetguru wrote:
WILGA wrote:I only want to note that the truth can not be defined by law or a decree. Insofar JMS can not decide, if the EU is part of the canon. He can only forbid that this fact is debated at all.

The better solution would be, if in the OP is defined, what is to be accepted as canon. That is then only valid for that one thread. In the next thread, another canon policy can be chosen.
Sure, and let's all settle everything out of court too, and have everyone make up their own rules.
You are again distorting what I have said.

But with that you are only showing how little you know,

Don't be surprised. But what you recommended is exactly what happens when people are making contracts. They are setting their own rules. And the court looks what is content of said contract and if a party has violated this contract.

And there is even something we in Germany are calling » Freiwillige Gerichtsbarkeit «. In English it is called » jurisdiction over non-contentious matters «. We also have something that is called » Schiedsgericht « what in English is called » Arbitral tribunal «

So, yes, to a certain degree, it is possible to let all settle everything out of court too, and have everyone make up their own rules.

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Re: JMS: Can we PLEASE get an oficial ruling on EU canonicit

Post by User1462 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 1:38 pm

WILGA wrote:
UniveralNetguru wrote:
WILGA wrote:I only want to note that the truth can not be defined by law or a decree. Insofar JMS can not decide, if the EU is part of the canon. He can only forbid that this fact is debated at all.

The better solution would be, if in the OP is defined, what is to be accepted as canon. That is then only valid for that one thread. In the next thread, another canon policy can be chosen.
Sure, and let's all settle everything out of court too, and have everyone make up their own rules.
You are again distorting what I have said.

But with that you are only showing how little you know,

Don't be surprised. But what you recommended is exactly what happens when people are making contracts. They are setting their own rules. And the court looks what is content of said contract and if a party has violated this contract.
Ok, WILGA, I have a lot of respect for you, and your opinions; but here we're comparing fiction, which naturally goes to the intentions of the authors. For exampe, if I set a condition in a contract that I didn't have to pay if "Sauron could take the Ring from Frodo at Mount Doom," then I'd simply show an excerpt from Tolkien's letters to that effect.
Likewise if I said that "a balrog could beat a TIE-fighter," then we'd look at the book not the movie, since we'd be dealing iwth Tolkien's intentions, not Peter Jacksons. In the movie, Balrogs can break through solid stone and cause earthquakes, but not in the book, so it's a clear difference.

Similarly here, we're looking at Lucas's intentions-- not those of the EU authors, which are clearly NOT passed by Lucas prior to either writing or publication.

And so it makes sense to have a law against claiming EU as canon; then, EU claims would be invalid, and SWST would be sent crying back to SDN.
However when I tell him that "the EU isn't canon," he responds with THIS:
The official Lucasarts canon policy still has EU sources as canon. George Lucas's informal statements do not change this. Interestingly enough, the ICS's would not really fall under this category; they're directly related to the movies, and are actually cross sections of the movies; essentially reference guides. George Lucas was referring to story lines after the movie, not reference guides to the movies themselves. This is further reinforced by the fact that the EU products have to be approved by Lucasarts.
i.e. "blah, blah, blah therefore I'm right." In other words, he talks out of his arse, and we really can't say a word about it definitively, because it's just his word against ours; and Lucas's direct-interview quotes are "informal statements," just like the Prophet Wong's divine ability to say what Lucas thinks because he thinks that Leland Chee talks to him, the "David Koresh" of Star Wars.
Or we can prove him wrong, which simply becomes a wild goose-chase about canon, rather than the topic at hand.

Even when you say that "hypermatter violates the laws of physics," he can just say "that's high-tech which only seems that way" etc. etc. etc.
At some point you simply have to say "ENOUGH," and put your foot down via policy, to stop this "tangled-web" fanwanking; otherwise he's just going to keep on wankin'.

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