Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

For all your discussion of canon policies, evidentiary standards, and other meta-debate issues.

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Admiral Breetai
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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Admiral Breetai » Sun May 22, 2011 2:05 am

mojo wrote:well that's pretty lame considering he's not doing any more movies. i've been waiting this whole time for a book featuring the guy to come out. especially considering how bad the second and third bane books were.
the only information we have about the guy in the EU was that he was a munn (those tall bald guys) and that he broke little Palpy's toys and used to make him cry allot

really considering how crappy that sounds it's good thing Lucas kept a lid on it

edit as for the force fucking up and Anakin killing the order, well it created a being that would bring balance to the force if the force itself had the personality of Zeus or Odin or the god from the old testament..this is exactly how he'd go about doing it...mind you I'm of the opinion the "chosen one" was not actually Anakin but luke as he both provided the catalyst for Anakins down fall and the destruction of the order (fear of loss of him his sister and his mother) and then the trigered the goodness and emotional response that resulted in the demise of the Sith for ever with both slates wiped clean Luke could then..carry on his fathers legacy and rebuild it all

Anakin may very well have been the Chithari or Sithari which was prophesied by Adas or Marka Ragnos I forget which, and was basically the force Anti christ some one who would bring cataclysmic change to the nature of the force itself and ultimately a win for the dark side...with Luke being the light part of the prophecy

it's a fan theory based heavily on EU but it is..some what supported by the actual events of the film...while the saga was supposed to be about Anakin Lukes own role..was pivotal to the destruction of the sith and the resurrection of the Jedi

either way you wont be getting no canon stories on plagius I think

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Post by Mith » Tue May 24, 2011 2:10 am

Mr. Oragahn wrote:My initial reply had more to do with pointing out the hypocrisy and quite disgusting way he handles his own little dominion. He doesn't need to add the insult to injury. If he wants to prove again and again that he's the lord creator of everything that is, why not just be totally original, instead of pouring salt and peeing into the wounds? I'm mainly reacting on his demeanour.
The problem with that is that Lucas isn't original. Even his original concept of Star Wars was taken from half a dozen other things. He's been essentially ripping people's ideas off, violating them, and then repackaging them for decades.
The best thing we have from Lucas about some reference to a clear canon policy is his vague waving about the Paramount policy. I can't remember him using the word canon in any definitive way. He's always weaseling out, never being firm. If he were honest, he'd have made the claim eons ago, and quickly replied by the negative or the positive if the EU is lower canon or not.
He's been rather firm from most of the statements I've read. The problem is that most warsies try and nit-pick them. They want to say that it has to be canon and they try and use some sort of grammatical claim (which is bullshit) to pretend they're something else.

He's even referenced the Star Trek canon policy as a mirror towards his own. The only statement that reinforces a whole policy is Leeland Chee, who later denounced the claim as some sort of mistake or misunderstanding or something.

The response from SDN and SB.com is simply to wail like banshees and stick their heads in the ground, trying to make it sound like those are unofficial statements or some bullcrap like that.
And as far as I know, Paramount didn't allow a second tier creature to exist and had said creature keep claiming that all it supervised and produced was canon, albeit to a lesser degree, alongside the higher tier products.
To be fair, it's because Paramount doesn't give two shits about their EU. What happens just happens. They don't try put any sort of quality control on what happens, to my knowledge. Lucas is different in that what they do is try to maintain some sort of continuity.
Lucas' ways are just twisted and sick, and I'd hate writing for such a fat lard, really. Because from the point of view of the EU, which is totally owned by Lucas, everything it deems canon is canon, and faithfully follows its oath of consistency as much as possible.
Lucas is doing something quite sadistic, in like he owns some dog and has it chained, and keeps making it salivating at some bone he doesn't throw, while asking the dog to make tricks and shouting to everyone that it's his pet, but he doesn't care if his dog is starving. The analogy isn't perfect cause the dog doesn't create anything, but the nauseating absurdity of both does stick out.
I disagree. He's made repeated statements that they are separate universes. The problem is the way the EU is set up; it's designed so that it has to follow his universe because it is a mirrored extension of it. So when Lucas sees a concept he likes from the EU and decides he wants it to be somewhat different in his universe, he sees no problem with it because he considers the universes two entirely different things.

It's still a shitty way to do it, but that's not entirely his fault.

It would just be a sneaky as Lucas' own salmonish stance on this. Plus for people used to time travel plots in SF, it's quite a simple concept to grasp, especially in an universe where it seems the Force follows some will and a roadmap, and will always try to get to point B from point A in the end, even if the route differs at some point.
Um, Lucas has been very clear on this--in his universe, Fett is dead. And the Emperor is dead--he never came back. The Empire simply ended at the Battle of Endor. He doesn't see the two as the same--he sees them as mirrors of each other. I honestly don't think he gives two shits if SW EU followed his own, other than say major concepts.

Mind you, I don't think we have to ignore the EU, but it depends on who you're debating and why. The EU can be fun. But the same could also be made for Star Trek, Stargate, and so forth. Of course, I personally indulge a bit with the Trek technical manuals...so meh.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Mith » Tue May 24, 2011 2:17 am

Khas wrote:Compared to some of the stuff in the EU, that's mild. And Marek was under considerable stress while doing it.
Wasn't Marek also pretty much considered a god amongst Jedi too? Even Anakin fuckingI'msospecial Skywalker wasn't that powerful. Nor was Master Yoda or fucking Palpatine. The closest we've gotten are those force benders or whatever from that one planet.

So likely, Marek is something more akin to them rather than what we see with most Jedi/Sith.


EDIT:

Actually, Anakin might have had that potential too. If you recall, in a fit of rage he was able to stop both the Daughter and the Son--both who seemed to be far more powerful than the average Jedi/Sith Lord. And Anakin was to replace the guy who controlled them. They're referred to as 'the Ones'.

It would seem that this would be a class of force user well above normal Jedi and Sith Lords, which is probably why Palpatine wanted Anakin to begin with; with the sort of potential Anakin had being anything like the Son or the Daughter, he would have been nearly unstoppable. Marek may simply be another One. It would suggest that Ones are rather rare, perhaps a special mutation within force users that give them an absurdly high count that makes them more in-tune with the force than the rest.
Last edited by Mith on Tue May 24, 2011 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Admiral Breetai » Tue May 24, 2011 2:27 am

Mith wrote:
Khas wrote:Compared to some of the stuff in the EU, that's mild. And Marek was under considerable stress while doing it.
Wasn't Marek also pretty much considered a god amongst Jedi too? Even Anakin fuckingI'msospecial Skywalker wasn't that powerful. Nor was Master Yoda or fucking Palpatine. The closest we've gotten are those force benders or whatever from that one planet.

So likely, Marek is something more akin to them rather than what we see with most Jedi/Sith.
actually if you go by the EU the comics Jedi and Sith from thousand plus years ago are monstrously more powerful than the current ones Kun Sadow Nadd so on and so fourth

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Mith » Tue May 24, 2011 2:46 am

Admiral Breetai wrote:
Mith wrote:
Khas wrote:Compared to some of the stuff in the EU, that's mild. And Marek was under considerable stress while doing it.
Wasn't Marek also pretty much considered a god amongst Jedi too? Even Anakin fuckingI'msospecial Skywalker wasn't that powerful. Nor was Master Yoda or fucking Palpatine. The closest we've gotten are those force benders or whatever from that one planet.

So likely, Marek is something more akin to them rather than what we see with most Jedi/Sith.
actually if you go by the EU the comics Jedi and Sith from thousand plus years ago are monstrously more powerful than the current ones Kun Sadow Nadd so on and so fourth
It would fit in with the idea that perhaps there were more powerful force users ages ago, but for some reason they seemed to have grown weaker (which is odd to say the least). Of course, it's possible that the super powerful ones just found ways of killing themselves before having children. They do seem to be awfully good at finding ways of killing themselves and their entire families off.

Palpatine's trick with Anakin could be an attempt to bring back some of that power for the dark side. We saw that the Son and the Daughter were able to manipulate the habitat their sanctuary--and that when the Daughter died, the Son's persona took presence over the terrain. And when of course, the Father died, it caused the entire sanctuary to fall apart.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Admiral Breetai » Tue May 24, 2011 5:02 am

Mith wrote: that would fit in with the idea that perhaps there were more powerful force users ages ago, but for some reason they seemed to have grown weaker (which is odd to say the least). Of course, it's possible that the super powerful ones just found ways of killing themselves before having children. They do seem to be awfully good at finding ways of killing themselves and their entire families off.]
well the idea was explained in universe in the comics at least was that after the battle of Russhan the sith went underground so there was no real need for all those massively powerful force powers as it simply did not fit their MO...with the Jedi order essentially becoming extremely close minded and dogmatic (much of the more powerful force techs required leaning more to your emotions than most jedi cared to trust themselves or their padawans with) then becoming so absolutely convinced in their supremacy and the extinction of the sith that their own arrogance blinded them then...you know know it was too late

that's why masters like Yoda and Mace where so powerful they were among the few that truly looked into some of the old stuff and experimented in it Yodas views seemed to become very extreme due to this for example and what have you basically yeah they became so weak because of their own ego and on the siths end pragmatism

allot of them did die long before they could pass on their genes although one family the sunrider clan did seem to survive for several thousand years with each generation having at least one jedi..though they got progressively weaker Nima Kypp's care taker for example was virtually all but useless even before she lost her connection to the force

Lucas IIRC has backed this up with some comments as to why he has no problem with the KOTOR era guys and the ones from before that in the golden age being so powerful but why Marrik a guy who'd be a joke to even a padawan then...was so ubber now

mind you it's a sentiment allot of people from SB and SD tend to ignore because it invalidates Dark Empire Luke and Siddy feat wise...and you tend to get some extremely vicious reactions to that effect
Mith wrote: Palpatine's trick with Anakin could be an attempt to bring back some of that power for the dark side. We saw that the Son and the Daughter were able to manipulate the habitat their sanctuary--and that when the Daughter died, the Son's persona took presence over the terrain. And when of course, the Father died, it caused the entire sanctuary to fall apart.
the son and the daughter? and it's possible mind you contemporary EU writers went and basically tossed this out to the wind when they had lukes aura radiate the galaxy and he became as dense as a black hole fighting clone palpy

but the impression I got was yeah the virgin birth of anakin and his sons sudden dramatic rise to the levels we saw him operate at in the films..is an indication of..either the force itself trying to bring back those powers..for the side of light..or if you take the Plagious theory about Anakin's birth as you said a Sith experiment to restore those abilities to the dark side

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by 2046 » Thu Jun 02, 2011 3:00 pm

Just saw the quoting from the SuperShadow site on this thread. I threw up in my mouth a little.

That site most emphatically does not contain any actual quotes from George Lucas ... if it does they are merely lifted from elsewhere and should be sourced from elsewhere because the guy literally makes up interviews and discussions with Lucas.

Put simply, those are the deranged ravings of a peculiar person.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SuperShadow

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Admiral Breetai » Thu Jun 02, 2011 8:49 pm

who used supershadow as a reference?

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by User15063 » Thu Apr 18, 2013 1:37 pm

Even though there are plenty of other Force-users more powerful the Galen, he stands out from all of them.
They are pretty much all Dark-side users. Galen was a Jedi. It is true that he used to be a Sith Assassin, but at least he died as a Jedi.

(I would like to see Picard do HALF the stuff that Galen did.)

Even though you say, "oh he only pulled down an ISD," I don't see Kirk or any normal person doing that.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Khas » Tue Apr 23, 2013 4:19 pm

Most Force-sensitives couldn't do half the stuff Galen did. They couldn't do a quarter of the stuff.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Apr 24, 2013 11:54 am

Movie and TCW Yoda and Palpatine couldn't do any of the high order things Marek does...

Only rare EU Wank-Force users can...

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by mojo » Thu Apr 25, 2013 12:49 am

are we still pretending starkiller's powers aren't canon?

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Khas » Thu Apr 25, 2013 1:29 am

I'm not.

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Apr 25, 2013 2:34 pm

Are we still pretending most Force-Users have that kind of power?
And, correct me if I'm wrong, but if Vader could hold up to Starkiller, but had trouble with a canonically weak Luke (as shown in movies, the highest canon), then what does that say of Starkiller's showings?
Are we to assume Vader was holding back stupidly in his fights or when he killed the Emperor?
Are we to assume the Emperor was holding back stupidly when trying to kill Luke?
Why did he not use his super duper FORCE POWAZZZZ to destroy the Rebel fleet around Endor?
Why do the movies show us Force users who are so underpowered when compared to Starkiller if they're supposed to be his equal?

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Re: Star Wars: Canon, the EU, and the Rampaging Lucas

Post by mojo » Fri Apr 26, 2013 11:49 am

2046 wrote:Just saw the quoting from the SuperShadow site on this thread. I threw up in my mouth a little.

That site most emphatically does not contain any actual quotes from George Lucas ... if it does they are merely lifted from elsewhere and should be sourced from elsewhere because the guy literally makes up interviews and discussions with Lucas.

Put simply, those are the deranged ravings of a peculiar person.

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/SuperShadow
it's an absolute blast to read, though. i spent a couple of hours digging through the thing and at least once every five minutes i laughed out loud. think about that for a second. even the hitchhiker trilogy doesn't have that kind of laugh ratio. now, if only he were doing it on purpose.

one thing you can't help but notice - although he does literally nothing but lie, he actually comes off as a pretty nice guy. if he lived in indiana, this is the kind of guy i'd want to go out drinking with once in a while. you'd spend the whole night laughing as he tried to pick up women with the 'i know george lucas and he's letting me direct the next star wars movie' schtick.

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