General Warning Tally for users...

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Mike, not only do you cut out 70% of my post, you ignore half of the part that you did leave in. Why not cut out that part too instead ofteyi g to make it seem like you responded to the second part; which is why you have no issue with Breetai claiming "fee hundred meters max range" and not giving a shred of evidence to support it.

I provided calcs right after he asked for them. It is very common to make a list of claims and then provide evidence upon request. In fact, that's exactly what you jus did! You made a series of claims, and only after I requested evidence did you provide some for ONE of your accusations.

Notice the obvious double standards? The poor logic and unreasonable requirements that you do not follow yourself?

Why do you think that not supporting a claim in the same post in which you made the claim is dishonest for me, when you made a list of claims and only gave a faulty example of one of them after I asked? Or when Breetai says:

The Federation can create stars

He does not include evidence in the same post, and I have to ask him for it (and even then he does not provide it, but that's another story).

[Mike DiCenso]

As many other people have pointed out, people have posted extensive details about your ignoring of proof that is gettng tiresome having to go through the trouble of repeating them endlessly.

I'll simply remind you of Mr. O's recent documentation of your behavior:

Following a request of mine about delivering a warning to SWST, here is a "summary" of one of those issues with SWST, as Mike asked.

I could show how SWST ignored the description of the superlaser shots against Despayre, but I've already provided ample evidence of that, and largely proved that he simply ignored those posts and the data they contained (like JMS' post containing the three descriptions, to which I linked several times and even talked about here, on page 14). We can easily notice by now that he has totally refused to debate the Despayre issue. Doing a CTRL+F with "despayre" on the last two or three pages will immediately show that.

I'll pass on the amount of stupid things he say, like claiming some fusion that is not nuclear does power crafts, or that the United States planned to use teraton level nukes during the cold war, that the Millennium Falcon was clearly hit by asteroids flying at escape velocity in the movie, etc. Obviously this bloke has no idea what he's talking about, and it damn shows.

Instead I'll focus, this time, on his evolutive tactic that is to pretend having read quotes, and then later on claim they don't even exist, and even that I never posted them (!).

Page 10, I post a series of three posts full of quotations.
When SWST returns, I post links to those posts here, on page 12:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 016#p33016

This is sooo not going to work, SWST.
I notice in that text below that you actually allowed yourself to cite another source. By doing so, you accept all other posters to do the same. Anyone knowing his nut about the EU regarding that question would tell you that it's a mistake, since the EU largely supports the fact that the Death Star is powered by fusion, the stellar kind. Nothing too fancy here.

I highlighted the importance of such quotes and their meaning here:

viewtopic.php?p=32408#p32408
viewtopic.php?p=32409#p32409
viewtopic.php?p=32428#p32428

SWST, you absolutely have NO interest into accepting other EU sources. Of course, that would make your case moot, since you'd be cherry picking.

SWST "replies", I.E. posts some one-line short commentary about ONE point that is part of only ONE quote among all of those I posted.

A technobabble neutrino charge capable of piercing the upper and lower mantle of a planet is still going to require energy, you know that?

And that was all.

I pointed out that part.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 135#p33135

Good thing you did cherry pick, as expected. You pulled, what? One sentence, among a variety of nearly ten different long quotations. Good job.
Besides, how do you quantify the neutrino charged beam?

My request was largely ignored.

I remind him of two of my posts which it seemed he was going to let sink.

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 441#p33441

Bis repetita

http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 715#p33715

We're straying a bit from the question of the quotes he ignored.
At mid-height of this post, I provide a summary of the crucial posts from the opposition which he ignored, plus the two warnings he received from Mike, about cherry picking; since he has lately abandonned using, as the only piece of evidence, the database which I returned against him, he is now claiming I was the one who provided it and based my entire argument on that and only that.
You'll see that later on.
Notice that he was also being warned, in other posts, to stop sidestepping any argument he was losing by bringing in some red herring about how Trek is wrong or does it differently, when we were talking about SW. I decided to completely reject those baits, but Mike again fell prey to it. I know that JMS doesn't see any problem with that, but it just confuses the discussion. I think it's quite out of place, on the contrary, when the topic of the thread is clearly SW centric. As pointed out about Saxton's website, there's no reason to make any comparison when we're not even dealing with a versus. It's just an argumentation tactic to pull the debate on tracks on which SWST thinks he could recover some point, or at least allow him to buy some time or have the opposition lose sight of the real argument.
I don't play those games, I reject his nonsense, and I think that globally, it makes for far better threads. It also makes mods' job easier by not having them to dice threads to sort out the irrelevant parts to create whole new ones, dedicated to what essentially was a red herring.

So SWST decides to claim that now there no links to my posts:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 806#p33806

Where in your post are there any links? Oh, no, there are none.

Of course, I had provided the links several times, and we know he even read some of them, since he commented on the neutrino charge of the superlaser, which precisely is picked from one of the quotes. At this point I was not going to post the links again.

I limit myself to pointing out that he just ignored the quotes (I could hardly call his one line commentary on a series of three long posts full of quotations a "decent reply" by any stretch of the imgination):
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 848#p33848

No, because I provided the links again in a very recent post, in that very recent thread of yours, which you all ignored.
I even said that JMS posted the quotes in this thread.

So stop buying time and concede. Your foolish act is totally transparent.

...

Blah blah blah.
That's part has already been covered.
Mike even warned you for that. Twice.
And I provided the links.

You're digging your own grave, and only making JMS' decision easier.

...

I clearly proved that you are trolling this very thread, by ignoring evidence from it, numerous times, and that since page 1, and against several warnings.
I'm talking of evidence which was already present in other older threads and which were already referenced when you started to present your claims.
You can complain all you want, that's not going to move me. It's a bit late to play the victim here.

...


You did type something in reply to some parts of my posts. I can't really say that it was anything worthwhile.
You certainly and repeatedly proved that you don't even read the quotes from the book Death Star and larger list of superlaser quotes I have provided.

...

But then, again, in light of other quotes, descriptions and things that happened in the movie, this requires to be understood differently than the way you do. Otherwise, it's cherry picking.
Notice that the official website database is one of the weakest sources of all. It has a long record of being both wrong on several points, and being often edited.

...
etc.

From there on, I've been pointing out in each post that he keeps ignoring the quotes about the Death Star's core and the superlaser firepower ratios.

Then, it really gets bad from there:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 046#p34046

Wrong. The only sources you use are one part from the Death Star novel (even though that very novel confirms blatantly that the Death Star uses hypermatter) and some sections from the database that point to fusion as the power source.

The same old lie.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 408#p32408
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 409#p32409
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 428#p32428

Not only did I provide the quotes, but I also analyzed them.

Seven different quotes. You haven't provided anywhere near that number supporting your stance.

...


Go ahead. See if you can come up with 7 relevant quotes.

...

Why don't you actually send your quotes, instead of threatening to do so?

See above.
Like I said and had to point out again the post that would follow, if I took the liberty of extracting singular mini-quotes like he did from the different sources I quoted earlier on, I'd have far more "quotes" than he did.
However, he would not recognize this on the basis that I did not provide said elements.

And more.

So, I could eventually provide, again, the links to the posts containing the quotes, but what tells me that this time he'll acknowledge those links or even read the quotes?

Just pick anything, and you'll answer most, if not all of your questions.

SWST, someone thinking you're a troll and calling you out on your behavior is worlds apart from using a crude and insulting phrase. In this case the "circle jerk" bit there. But I am telling you, there is an obvious pattern. I'll reiterate:

Calling someone a troll and a liar IS a crude an insulting phrase. You cannot allow the one while allowing the other just because you obviously agree with them.

What's more, although you do give out warning to the opposition, you phrase it in a sympathetic manner ("hey, I agree with you, but as you keep insulting him, SWST will have a good excuse and I can't ban him!") despite the fact that what they did was clearly wrong.

But it's been documented that you trolled. The list I posted in the Death Star power generation thread largely details that. I just wish more members bothered doing the same, so you could not evade accusations so easily.

-Stop starting new threads on the drop of a hat.

On the first page at the moment of this post, Breetai is the thread starter of 10 threads and I am of but 8. Once again, you are making claims without doing math to support them (read: your complaint about calculations).

What's more, look at the thread variety. About half of his threads a duplicate vs matches with slight variations, variations that do not change the fact that the debates are going to devolve into the same arguments, and he know this.

Please, quit the act. The threads Mike talk about are a very specific kind of thread. Nothing to do with the ones Breetai started.

-Stop endlessly repeating the same tired old cut-and-paste SDN mantras that have been long since debunked.

More proof of the subjective judgement being used here. "Debunked" is your opinion, and you know this. You may think that they were debunked, but I do not think that they have been.

So? Are you going to repeat the same claims and arguments on and on because after all any disagreement or proof that they're invalid is nothing more than an opinion, and therefore can't be used to have you cut it?
You can notice that contrary to SDN or SBC, you had a lot of chances to prove yourself right on several points, and everyone saw how you avoided dealing with a problem, just to restart it somewhere else.
It is true that this is the most problematic kind of stuff to monitor and gauge for a moderator, but there is a time when a moderator has to draw a line and stop the viral broken record circus.

You don't have a leg to stand on anymore here, SWST. Just take the advice I gave you, and move on.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

are you stalking me? why do you keep bringing me up? and it isn't like multiple posters and two mods have pointed out the difference between how we do things and what not.

as for my claims again I told you the specifics and all you did was ignore it and demand proof

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Mike, you attempt an AoA to somebody who isn't really authoritative on the determination of who and who isn't a troll. I have already addressed the question of not responding to posts (which was Mr. O's main argument in those posts you showed me), and given his history of outright lying about my honesty (claiming that the database does not mention the "unimaginable amounts of raw power" as I claimed, and as I recall NOT APOLOGIZING FOR IT OR ACKNOWLEDGING HIS MISTAKE) it would be better if you would actually go analyze and argue rationally his accusations yourself. Get it? I've already responded to the claims Mr. O makes there, and your rebuttal to these is just to...repost the same accusations. Wow, Mike.

It's also amazing that you completely ignore my reasonable accusation that you are making a double standard here, and that you completely ignored my quotes showing obvious rule violations from the opposition that go unnoticed.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Mike, you attempt an AoA to somebody who isn't really authoritative on the determination of who and who isn't a troll. I have already addressed the question of not responding to posts (which was Mr. O's main argument in those posts you showed me), and given his history of outright lying about my honesty (claiming that the database does not mention the "unimaginable amounts of raw power" as I claimed, and as I recall NOT APOLOGIZING FOR IT OR ACKNOWLEDGING HIS MISTAKE) it would be better if you would actually go analyze and argue rationally his accusations yourself. Get it? I've already responded to the claims Mr. O makes there, and your rebuttal to these is just to...repost the same accusations. Wow, Mike.

It's also amazing that you completely ignore my reasonable accusation that you are making a double standard here, and that you completely ignored my quotes showing obvious rule violations from the opposition that go unnoticed.

I can't say anything about the others, and it's possible that you may be right on some points, or even all of them, but as far as I am concerned, I know that when you say that "[you] already responded to the claims there," it doesn't hold water at all. I didn't bother with your post because it both was silly in too many ways and not properly edited, and I considered that it wasn't up to me to waste more time cleaning up your mess. I've been quite generous with you.
Oh, and I actually forgot your disgusting debating methods, like cut quoting pieces and asking things which are worthless (like quoting the part where I cite a bit from "Death Star" and asking "what's this supposed this to mean?" - which would have been obvious if you had not diced my post in such a ridiculous fashion), or snipping an entire explanation and calling that "wall of text!" and "semantics", and then from there ignoring all I said and repeating yourself, while the paragraph you quoted precisely debunked your claim. Clearly, you don't even read what you quote. You quote just to give the illusion that that you pay attention to people's words, but you're only interested into repeating yourself. Or your appeal to the laws of thermodynamics (oh the big scare tactics) or Saxton's PhD. That one was funny too. I'd be rich by now if I had been given one penny for each time time a warsie cited Saxton's credentials as an argument, like if that allowed him to write up any bullshit he felt he could throw into the mix. In reality is was like having a scientist focus his skills on the equivalent of wrongdoing. That's just as fucked as it can get.
The rest of your post was pretty much forgettable. It has been talking to a brick wall (plus another Star Trek red herring - pretty much in violation of former warnings, etc.).
> Get lost.

[Mike DiCenso]

Jedi Master Spock has given a verdict on the matter and also agrees that the examples Mr. Oragahn has amassed here in this thread of StarWarsStartrek's willful ignorance constitutes a rules violation as per the rules. Therefore I am giving SWST a fourth warning and a 1 day ban.

As usual, if you feel this unfair, please take it up with Jedi Master Spock and Praeothmin. Thank you.
-Mike

[mojo]

the old oragahn trail is making headway. nicely done, brother troll!

[Mike DiCenso]

Except that Mr. Oragahn is not trolling. He actually built a detailed case against SWST, which is exactly what people needed to do in the first place. You could learn something from that kind of patience and perseverance, Mojo.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

why the hell does he keep fixating on me when he claims double standard? the hell is that I've obeyed all rules but no insults it's not my fault he ignores the proof i post sheesh

[mojo]

Except that Mr. Oragahn is not trolling. He actually built a detailed case against SWST, which is exactly what people needed to do in the first place. You could learn something from that kind of patience and perseverance, Mojo.
-Mike

probably i could. but where would the fun be in that?

you and i have very different definitions for the word 'trolling'. i don't mean it in a derogatory way. and oragahn has never objected to my usage of the term in relation to him.

should being disgusted with swst's behavior require me to take the role of prosecuting attorney against him with the mod staff playing judge? why do we have to keep going over this? i sort of saw where that might have been a good idea while there were a billion things happening at once requiring mod attention. but it's absurd since there are what, 10 posts a day on average at this point? i may be missing something here, but it seems like the mods' to-do list has got to be small enough to allow for viewing those ten posts a day and acting on them accordingly. i would think the members of the board would be able to stop doing the mods' work for them. you don't see me asking the mods to spam the board for me.

i apologize if that came across as overly cranky or disrespectful. but seriously, c'mon. what oragahn did was very cool, but the fact that he had to go that far is ridiculous, and it can't have been very much fun to do. isn't that the main purpose of the mod system, to deal with things that interfere with the board's ability to enjoy itself? building a case against swst turns somethng that is supposed to be fun into work, and it's analogous to someone calling the police because someone has broken into his house and being told, 'well, go arrest him then.'

[Mr. Oragahn]

There are pros and cons, but mods aren't paid to do that. It's only done because they offered some of their time to take care of the board, but they can't dedicated much of their life to it.
In the case of SWST, it just burgeoned every where, and I still think that Breetai should have made a list. Perhaps not as long as mine, but won't that explained why he complained so many times.
From my perspective, what Breetai did was essentially complain while at the same time judging being in his own legit right to sort of insult SWST if I understand correctly.
In the end, it only played against him, for the simple reason that sniffing a troll does require some effort. You know it, you smell it.
If Breetai had made his case clear, SWST would have probably been punished earlier on.
Because the problem is that it takes more than reading just ten posts to see that one is trolling. It requires reading pages to see how, page after page, one member keeps stirring trouble gradually. In the case of SWST, it was even worse, since he was replying in many threads at once, and opened new ones as well, while appearing civil.

Besides, accusations of mod bias aren't very far when one complains about some trolling going on relative to arguments. There always is a part that is subjective, and at some point, it simply becomes a question of if a mod will tolerate one's actions or not.
Again, I can't tell about the others, but I think I sufficiently demonstrated that the mods' action was rather well supported and logical, and as objective as it can get in such conditions, this stopping in its tracks any bitching and moaning from the sanctioned party.

Sooo.... well. There we are. I really wish I could understand Breetai's position, and possibly the complaints of others, but there's just too many threads to read. The plaintiffs do have to offer some kind of "digest" summary.

Mods can't go read pages and after pages because a member reports something. They'll surely take a look.
Now, one thing they may do is open a "file", and that's quite they're already doing with those general warnings : they report the offensive posts, but unfortunately they're only limited to obvious infringements thus far, like insults or disrespectful content, not the more complicated stuff like repeated use of argumentation fallacies, denial and so on.

In a way or another, it gets really tedious for everyone.
The good thing in that is that SWST has been marked.

[Admiral Breetai]

see the problem with that Mister O is I documented very well in the very same posts I called him out in what he did..and in the beginning made many numerous mentions of his dishonesty and misconduct this was ignored with the comment "your posts are too long for us to waste time in looking through"

the one time I did make a documented effort JMS over ruled one of the staff. Now you can sit here and disagree with my methods all you want to but don't accuse me of not making proper effort to document why and wherefor..that's what I did

I was ignored and then witnessed JMS basically committing dereliction of his duties as site admin and it was made very clear to me through these actions that no recourse was left to me but do what I did.

if you have a problem with that I simply don't care the fact is I made the effort and it amounted to nothing what so ever in which case I did what I had to do and considering his melt downs lead him here..made more headway then any one but you..in dealing with him but do not accuse me of being lazy or hypocritical or absent in my duty as a member.

Oh and I'll add this mister O I did it and you did it even though we didn't have nor should we have had to our job is to simply report trolling it's the mods job to compile a history of trolling..they asked it seems some of us were courteous enough to oblige when we shouldn't of had too and I wont be put in a bad light for that or my reactions when nothing came of it.

I'm not going to be condemned for that.

i apologize if that came across as overly cranky or disrespectful. but seriously, c'mon. what oragahn did was very cool, but the fact that he had to go that far is ridiculous, and it can't have been very much fun to do. isn't that the main purpose of the mod system, to deal with things that interfere with the board's ability to enjoy itself? building a case against swst turns somethng that is supposed to be fun into work, and it's analogous to someone calling the police because someone has broken into his house and being told, 'well, go arrest him then.'

Thank you! this is exactly what I've been trying to say.

[Mike DiCenso]

i apologize if that came across as overly cranky or disrespectful. but seriously, c'mon. what oragahn did was very cool, but the fact that he had to go that far is ridiculous, and it can't have been very much fun to do. isn't that the main purpose of the mod system, to deal with things that interfere with the board's ability to enjoy itself? building a case against swst turns somethng that is supposed to be fun into work, and it's analogous to someone calling the police because someone has broken into his house and being told, 'well, go arrest him then.'

Thank you! this is exactly what I've been trying to say.

Except that it is a very poor analogy to a very difficult situation, and says a lot as to why you guys failed so hard where Mr. Oragahn succeeded so very well. The difference here is more like you guys accusing someone, but when the police (the mods) arrive, there's no hard evidence to back up what you're claiming, when in fact the crime is more subtle, and requires a great deal of investigation to solve. So instead of doing the equivalent of setting up video cameras and getting eye witnesses to coroborate your accustation, you throw a tantrum and go out to commit vandalism and assault, which in turn gets you arrested locked up, and distracts the police (mods) from further pursuing the investigation against the person you accused.

Mr. Oragahn did all that needed to be done to create an air-tight case, and as a result, we the police (mods) "arrested" SWST such that any "judge" or "jury" (JMS) can't help but agree and find him guilty.

It's that simple. Really.
-Mike

[Admiral Breetai]

no hard evidence? bullshit Mike it was obvious from the get go what he was out to do and you know it preao knew kor knew it O knew we all knew it. and as for you sitting here and telling me..your work is too hard too much time consuming to go through the guys posting history? why did you become a mod in the first place? i was one..I never griped when I had to snuff out trolls even if it took me several hours because that's what my job was.

don't sit here and tell me what he did wasn't obvious it was painfully so from the man first posts..jesus Christ even on space battles the red flags of bullshit flew up when ever he made a post or a thread...if those thugs and SDN sycophants can sniff it out your telling me you can't?

and my vandalism as you so aptly put it? well, the problem with that is lying and constantly repeating the same arguments in the face of proof, and using fallacies and all that other good stuff. Is more severe a crime than being a mean to a troll which is all I did, I stood a very firm I wont put up with your BS stance and hammered him constantly and he broke under that.

too my knowledge being cranky isn't against the rules if you have an issue with Mojos antics take it up with him..but his snapping was entirely justified I'll maintain by JMS actions to undue all that you and preao did.

[Mr. Oragahn]

A. Breetai, it's kinda weird because I know I suggested at least once, if not twice, that you do the same as I did, yet I don't remember you posting a link towards any descriptive post.
I may have missed something but since I had my own problem with Swap, I wasn't concerned enough to keep tabs on what was going between you and him. Not to say that there also was KSW causing some trouble on his side as well.
Really, where are those posts you mention? Why can't you post links, at least here, in the moderation forum, where they'll be useful? Isn't that what the mods are just asking for?
How many times have you been asked to simply post links, in this thread and other threads outside of thus subforum?
Really, if you have written those accusatory posts, where are they? Where is the evidence?

All I can remember is that at some point you started complaining that the mods weren't doing anything worthwhile and you jumped onto the libel train with Mojo, and shit hit the fan. This was just absurd. You literally spent several posts bringing the forum's quality down instead of just posting some links or copy/pasting what you had written. Why?
I'm sorry but no, even if the mods were wrong, I didn't see any justification in doing that. Kor never did that, yet he got a rough time with Serafina. I didn't do that either despite the same problems with this same person. You are not special and I don't see why you should get a free ride.

I'll be quite straight here. I'm totally willing to be on your side, but if you cannot post links or any presentation of your case, I'll have to assume that you never really did what you say to have done, or at least nowhere close to a sufficient degree.
I reported Swap a good number of times, but at some point it became clear that something had to be done to keep track of what he was doing. Hence my post in this thread, and the former summary in the "Death Star output thread".

I don't think merely throwing accusations and pressing the report button would work against more or less subtle trolling. Remember that not all of Swap's methods went under the radar. As I pointed out, he had been warned several times.
But moderating against argumentative trolling is the hardest jobs of all on a board for mods, so you have to help them, no matter what.
I think Praeothmin's post still holds true.

Now, on the other hand, here's what I'd agree on: the moderation has been too lax on it. Everyone read through Swap. In his "challenge" thread, Khas said that Swap was pushing people's buttons (page 4). On the end of the second page I already smelled some very suspicious behaviour, and on page 5 and 6, I pointed out that all he asked for was already covered. Others posted links, since there was clearly no reason to repeat entire threads and beat the same dead horses.
So yes, we could already smell the trolling.

I just wish the mods had been more severe in requiring Swap to use the search function and go read the threads.