Praeothmin wrote:SWST, be careful what you wish for…
SWST wrote:Praeothmin wrote:
sonofccn, these are all numbers SWST is aware of, as they have been given to him on numerous occasions in previous posts...
I would invite you to present evidence of this. I would also invite you to refudiate the various justifications I have presented for not being able to rebute every last post directed at me, the latest being that my desktop computer's harddrive just died.
While you may not have been able to respond to them all, they were presented to you, and you chose to ignore them.
In fact, you did indeed respond to some, so it seems you decided to cherry pick the evidence you would respond to…
-Warning number one for lying about range info:
You were indeed made aware of ranges of combat, and of your exaggerated ranges based off of Endor here:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 939#p32939
When I said:
SWST, where in the video you posted does it show ranges in the hundreds of km?
At what time index can we calculate this, because I've looked at the fight, and at most get 3, 4times the length of the SSD as range, which, if we assume it is 17km long (reasonalbe scaling), means at most 80 km away when the fighters engage each other, but we still don't see the Cap ships fire at each other at these ranges, and these ranges are still far less than DS9 combat ranges, or many other examples in ST, like in "The Search" - 100,000 kilometers is "well within range" of the Jem'Hadar ships' weapons.
There's also:
"Caretaker" - Voyager launches tricobalt devices at a range of ~400 km.
"Ex Post Facto" - Voyager locks phasers shortly before the Numiri ships close to 4,000 km. The Numiri engage tractors at 2,000 km, and Voyager fires at 1,500 km. 40 tons of thalmerite explosives are expected to be able to blow up a Numiri ship.
In "The Swarm," Janeway arms phasers at 100,000 km, and the swarm's range is then reported to be 7,000 km after the phasers are fired.
"Non Sequitor" - while being chased by a Nebula class starship, Harry Kim loses shields while still 5,000 km away.
To which you replied here:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... nge#p35389
With:
SWST wrote:Excuse me? Weren’t you the one who said that the ranges shown at Endor were hundreds of kilometers, not thousands of kilometers?
Then I said:
No, I said the ranges at Endor were, at most, a few dozens of km when they start off, like this, in this thread:
Then I asked:
:
SWST, where in the video you posted does it show ranges in the hundreds of km?
At what time index can we calculate this, because I've looked at the fight, and at most get 3, 4times the length of the SSD as range, which, if we assume it is 17km long (reasonalbe scaling), means at most 80 km away when the fighters engage each other, but we still don't see the Cap ships fire at each other at these ranges, and these ranges are still far less than DS9 combat ranges, or many other examples in ST,
So no, I don't believe I've said "hundreds of km" for SW range...
Then, you again came back with your “Hundred of Km range” lies here:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 299#p35299
Which I again requested proof for:
Prove it...
SWST wrote:Which is superceded by the films, and they contradict The Clone Wars. Therefore, you evidence is rendered invalid, whereas mine are completely fine (the films don't establish maximum ranges).
Nope, since you haven't proven anything...
Movies don't show hundreds of km engagements, and neither does the TCW, which are all above your novel examples... :)
Again, I mention the battles of Chin’toka here:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 282#p35282
Which you once more ignored, and continued claiming short ranges using only one example, as you did in SW with the Endor example, always ignoring RotS and TCW…
And then, again, in this thread, you fail to back up any of your claims with hard numbers:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 943#p33943
And you never came back with replies except for a minor but inconsequential nitpick…
Here, we again have you claim long ranges while ignoring shorter ones:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 171#p33171
SWST wrote:On the contrary, there are plenty of long range Star Wars encounters; the Battle of Endor is on the middle part of the scale. There is an example of a relatively stationary target being hit from across the star system.
Then list them, if they so exist, and I’m sure for each long range example, I’ll find short range ones, like the Battle of Coruscant, all the battles in TCW, like for example:
-“Rising Malevolance”, where Venators fire, and miss, a 2km ship from less than 10km away…
-“Shadow of Malevolance”, where again, ships miss a huge target in the low km range…
-“Storm over Ryloth”, where the engagements, again, are in the low km range…
At least, ST vessels were hitting the Borg cube…
And here’s the list I provided:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 149#p33149
which you’ve tried to bullshit your way out of using EU which is disproven by higher canon, such as RotS and TCW:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 154#p33154
And now, Warning number two for lying about Firepower:
Here, you ignore the exploding asteroids of TESB for the umpteenth time:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 630#p34630
Which means your “lower limits” are even lower than what you envisioned…
Here, you try to use Hyperbole (and pass it off as literal interpretation) from the SW EU to gauge SW firepower:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 300#p35300
While refusing use of the same for ST, from Canon info in the show:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 326#p35326
Oh, how about Dankayo, where you used the atomized topsoils and drifting atmosphere as evidence of BDZ firepower, but then ignore the evenly cratered surface or the fact that people were actually walking and breathing on said surface after the attack?
Warning number three for lying about speed info:
Here, I show you some speeds calcs and comparisons between SW and ST, and throw your bullshit “SW 20 times faster than ST” out the window since you only used 1 miscalculated incident as a benchmark:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 872#p33872
Notably:
As for other SW speeds in higher canon:
AotC:
Amidala takes less than an hour to travel from Tattoine to Geonosis, less than a PARSEC away, so 3.26 LY in one hour is 31,974c.
ANH:
Han claims that he'll have Jabba's money in "three weeks." Thus, from Tattooine to Alderaan (less than 5000 LY) and back cannot take any more than three weeks' round trip. Luke's training takes place entirely within the Tattooine-Alderaan run; thus, at least some hours elapsed on board the Falcon.
Let's be generous and say the trip was done in less then a day, then 1,825,000c.
Setting out to Dantooine immediately before the destruction of Alderaan (Alderaan – Dantooine trip, about 2000 LY, or 2/10th SW Galaxy, in less than 24 hours, speeds over 730 000c) and after the departure of the Falcon, Imperial scouts checked the place before the Falcon arrived.
RotJ:
The Rebel fleet launches from Sullust, "hundreds of light years" from Endor, a scene split between scenes in the early morning Endor time. They arrive during an afternoon.
This is most likely the same afternoon, and Endor's day seems of similar length to Earth's, then the Rebel fleet took roughly 6-12 hours to arrive. The distance to Sullust should be between 200 and 1,000 light years, meaning that the total speed is 400-4,000 light years per day, or 150,000-1,500,000c.
As per the Maps in every source I found, Endor and Sullust are 1/10th of the galaxy diameter away from one another, so 1000 LY is closer to actual number.
So 1000 LY in 12 hours is 730,000c.
So except for the Maul speed, all other high end speeds derived from the movies are closer to a million c, so as I said many times, while I do agree FTL advantage is with SW in known territory, it is far less than 20 times ST speeds, at times not even twice as fast...
As for ST:
-TOS, "That Which Survives": the E-Nil travels 990.7 LY in less than 24 hours equals 361 606c;
-TOS, "Obsession": the E-Nil travels 2000 LY in a round trip in less than 48 hours, or 365 000c;
-ST V: the E-A travels between 17 000 to 25 000 LY in less than 7 hours, or between 21 274 286c and 31 285 714c;
-ST Gen: the E-B travels between 3 LY in less than 3 minutes, or 525 600c;
-TNG, "The Chase": the E-D is expected to travel around 40 000 LY in less than “a few weeks”. If it’s 2 weeks, then 960 000c, but if it’s 4 weeks, then 480 000c. Although Picard, if he had gone to Indri VIII, 30 000LY away, was willing to inconvenience some squabbling delegates for “a few days”;
- TNG, "Where Silence has Lease": While trapped in a special phenomena, the E-D is expected to travel around 1.4 Parsec, 4.564 LY, in less than a minute, or 2 398 838.4c;
- TNG, "The Wounded": the E-D estimated 10 LY in less than 22 minutes at Warp 9, or 239 148c;
So we see how much closer the speed differences are between the two factions...
And you ignored the Hyperspace lanes explanations many times, even though you knew the limits existed, since you so conveniently took it out of this here trollish scenario…
Oh, this is you throwing another bullshit claim in the debate without any thing to back it up, like figures and calcs:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 831#p33831
In conclusion, SWST, you are a lying Troll who posted this latest thread with the intention to Troll, as evidenced by your opening statement which was then taken out, and by the fact you again rehash all the old bullshit arguments and pretend never to have been made aware of the rebuttals because of, as you said, “a damaged computer”…
Feel free to show me what episode the Federation amassed its thirty thousand ship fleet on screen at once. I'd really enjoy watching that one.
Well, at least ST did show us multiple times close to hundreds of ships, and then there was the Cardassia battle (Mike, do you still have the picture?)…
But feel free to ignore this as you always do… :)
