Riker - what would you have done differently

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Sat Apr 12, 2008 7:36 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Who is like God arbour wrote: I have read somewhere, they have changed the modulation. But, because they have not known, that the Klingons see, what Geordi has seen, wile setting a new shield modulation, they couldn't explain, why the Klingons are able to penetrate the shields nevertheless. So they have concluded, that further shield modulation changes are unproductive.

That must be from fanon speculation, the non-canon novelization, or an early draft script, but it is not anywhere in the movie dialog.
-Mike
The question is, if Riker and the crew of the Enterprise would have not changed the modulation of the shields, although they have, as Ted C has satisfactorily established, known, that matching frequencies would be the most likely cause for the sudden Klingon ability to penetrate the shields of the Enterprise because they have first-hand experiences with that weakness of their own shields?

If that would be the case, it would demonstrate their incompetence.

We know, that it has not happened on-screen.

But many things can happen, but are not shown on-screen. That doesn't mean, that we assume, that they have not happened.

With our knowledge of common human behaviour and needs and our knowledge of the specific mannerisms and skills of a character, we usually extrapolate, what could have happened off-screen.

Thus, the next question is, if it is plausible, that Riker would not have ordered to change the shield modulation off-screen.

I think, it is not plausible. As Ted C has satisfactorily established, he has first-hand experiences with that weaknes of the shields and it is unlikely, that Riker would have forgetten that. He is neither in the series nor in the film depicted as so stupid and incompetent. Starfleet regards him as a competent officer, who has been offered his own command several times.

Sure, if one would assume, that Riker would have not orderd to change the shield modulation off-screen, one could conclude, that he is incompetent. But that would be a circular argument because what Rikes has done off-screen is exactly what we are trying to ascertain and if he would have ordered to change the shield modulation, one could not claim, that he would be incompetent because he has not done it.

The fact, that the Klingons could penetrate the shields all the time is not enough to show, that the shield modulation of the Enterprise was not changed. As Roondar has already said, Geordi would be the most likely person to do these alterations and the Duras sisters would have seen, to which new modulation he has adjusted the shields in the moment, he would have entered the change into the console. Only if he would have programmed the shields to change their modulation continuous and at random, the Duras sisters would not be able to know, to which modulation the shields have changed, in those moments, Geordi has not looked at the console, which shows the modulation. But from what the crew of the Enterprise has known, there was no need for this because, they have not known, that the Duras sisters were able to see at once, to which new modulation the shields were changed. The conclusion, after the first change, done by Geordi, has failed, would be, that the Duras sisters abiliy to penetrate the shields has nothing to do with the shield modulation or that they somehow know the shield modulation even after it was changed and that further changes would be futile anyway because, however they were able to gain the ability to ascertain the shield modulation of the Enterprise, they could do it again.

Insofar, I see nothing, that would make it plausible to assume, that the shields modulation was not changed off-screen, but that, because the Duras sisters have seen the new modulation, the change was futile and that they have concluded, that further changes would also be futile.

In that moment, the decision to retreat, was the correct decision.

Without her shields, the Enterprise was an easy target for the Klingon Bird of Prey. And even if the Enterprise wouldn't have been damaged and all her weapons systems would have been fully functional, it seems dubios, if the still with shield protected Bird of Prey could have been destroyed, even if all weapons of the Enterprise would have fired at it.

At the time, Generations happened, the Bird of Prey was "only" 20 years old and was only retired from service due to defective plasma coils, which were components of the cloaking systems.

The Enterprise was at this time already over seven years old.

Although the Bird of Prey was thrice as old as the Enterprise, he was not totally obsolete. Sure, he wouldn't have a chance against the Enterprise with her shields. But without her shields, the twenty years old, still by his own shields protected Bird of Prey would be a too strong adversary.

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Sun Apr 13, 2008 1:30 pm

W.I.L.G.A., if they had been bright enough to immediately understand the problem, and then change shield frequencies off-screen, then I'm pretty sure they would have understood, off-screen, after the next shots penetrated the shields, that the Duras sisters had a way of knowing.

And since Geordi was their prisoner for some time, then they would have more then likely deduced, off-screen, that Geordi was somehow transmitting those new frequencies every time.
So the next frequency change would have surely been made by someone else... off-screen...

Alas, nothing like that has been seen, or even hinted at, in a show (or movie) that has had the habit of always explaining the reasoning of every action, the habit of showing the ingenuity of the crews on and on again.
They would have made a special case of the crew discovering the shield frequency problem and trying to solve it, at the very least...
all her weapons systems would have been fully functional, it seems dubios, if the still with shield protected Bird of Prey could have been destroyed, even if all weapons of the Enterprise would have fired at it.
We have no indication, at the time the E-D fired that lone phaser shot, that any weapon's system were damaged at all.
In fact, once more, had they been, then we would've seen it mentioned, for example Riker asking for a full torpedo spread, Worf saying they could only fire one phaser shot or one torpedo because of weapon damage...

And firing a full 10 torpedo spread would have definitly damaged the
smaller, less powerful Bird-Of-Prey, at the very least if only from the "bleedthrough" coming from the shields...

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Post by Enterprise E » Sun Apr 13, 2008 7:15 pm

One thing I was wondering about changing the shield frequencies would be this: if the Enterprise did change them, wouldn't the Klingons know because they were able to see through Geordi's visor? I know he's not going to be staring at the frequency all the time, but if they managed to match the frequency a couple of times, if I were the Klingons I would quickly target the shield generators and projectorsm and then the weapons. It would be a lot easier to fight a ship that had no shields and no torpedos available.

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Post by Ted C » Mon Apr 14, 2008 7:30 pm

Enterprise E wrote:One thing I was wondering about changing the shield frequencies would be this: if the Enterprise did change them, wouldn't the Klingons know because they were able to see through Geordi's visor? I know he's not going to be staring at the frequency all the time, but if they managed to match the frequency a couple of times, if I were the Klingons I would quickly target the shield generators and projectorsm and then the weapons. It would be a lot easier to fight a ship that had no shields and no torpedos available.
That's what we've been on about for the last page.

1) It's unreasonable to expect Geordi to be looking at that panel all the time.

2) The whole crisis would have been a hell of a lot more plausible if they DID sustain serious shield damage with the opening shot, but there was no indication that they did.

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