Quantifying the Wells Class

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Kor_Dahar_Master
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Re: Quantifying the Wells Class

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Tue Jun 01, 2010 7:44 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
These were D7s or K'Tingas being attacked in TOS, not BoP, ships that made their first appearance in the movies.
They were D7's or older/unknown ships then because K'tinga's did not make a appearance until The motion picture.
Praeothmin wrote: When both ships were unshielded, they were almost equally matched...
While the first shots on the E-Nil were on an unshielded vessel, it was not completely unprotected, because it had "Energy Fields" that seemed to protect the main parts of the vessel...
So while I agree a Connie may be a bit more powerful, the difference isn't that great...
I think we will agree to disagree here cos i think at full operational power a Coni is a lot more powerful, they just seemed equal due to no shields and cos in the TOS era shields were relied on a lot more. In the TNG era shields seemed to drop a lot more and faster and they seemed to take lots of hits on hull/armour while calling out figures regarding "structural integrity" a lot.

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Praeothmin
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Re: Quantifying the Wells Class

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Jun 02, 2010 5:12 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:
These were D7s or K'Tingas being attacked in TOS, not BoP, ships that made their first appearance in the movies.
They were D7's or older/unknown ships then because K'tinga's did not make a appearance until The motion picture.
Not a problem, just wanted to point out that they weren't BoP...
Praeothmin wrote: When both ships were unshielded, they were almost equally matched...
While the first shots on the E-Nil were on an unshielded vessel, it was not completely unprotected, because it had "Energy Fields" that seemed to protect the main parts of the vessel...
So while I agree a Connie may be a bit more powerful, the difference isn't that great...
I think we will agree to disagree here cos i think at full operational power a Coni is a lot more powerful, they just seemed equal due to no shields and cos in the TOS era shields were relied on a lot more. In the TNG era shields seemed to drop a lot more and faster and they seemed to take lots of hits on hull/armour while calling out figures regarding "structural integrity" a lot.
Really?
Yet in ST VI: TUC, we see a fully shielded E-A getting fired at, and taking damage to its hull, and the same thing happened to the Excelsior...
So you see, while they only had energy fields in TWoK, having shields may have simply meant that they would not have lost Warp and Impulse, and would have been battle worthy still.
But they would have taken damage, that's a given considering TUC...

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Re: Quantifying the Wells Class

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Wed Jun 02, 2010 7:51 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
Really?
Yet in ST VI: TUC, we see a fully shielded E-A getting fired at, and taking damage to its hull, and the same thing happened to the Excelsior...
When?, if you mean at the end scotty points out that the shields are collapsing and the very next torp punches a hole through the E-A saucer section. Before that all they get are a few black scorch marks from the torps as their shields are weakening (also reported by scotty).

The Excelsior raises shields as soon as it drops out of warp and after that gets shot at it takes a direct hit from below to the saucer section area but does not even get a black mark to show for it, the impact does knock a few ppl on their asses though.
Praeothmin wrote:So you see, while they only had energy fields in TWoK, having shields may have simply meant that they would not have lost Warp and Impulse, and would have been battle worthy still.
But they would have taken damage, that's a given considering TUC...
I am not sure what you mean by energy fields but it is reported that the Enterprise is running with shields down and after the Enterprise is hit they try to get shields up and fail. Kirk then asks for phasers and scotty says they have enough power for a few shots but spock says its not enough against the reliants shields.

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Re: Quantifying the Wells Class

Post by Mike DiCenso » Wed Jun 02, 2010 11:50 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:I am not sure what you mean by energy fields but it is reported that the Enterprise is running with shields down and after the Enterprise is hit they try to get shields up and fail. Kirk then asks for phasers and scotty says they have enough power for a few shots but spock says its not enough against the reliants shields
.

I think he's refering to the "defence fields" that are activated when Kirk ordered the ship to Yellow Alert status during the Reliant and Enterprise's closing up with one another.
-Mike

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Re: Quantifying the Wells Class

Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 03, 2010 5:09 am

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: That is not a fair example and a terrible analogy, a more accurate analogy by todays standards would essentially be a mobile drilling platform or mining ship like the "Jules Verne" going back in time and kicking the crap out of 47 pre-dreadnought battleships.
No, it's a perfectly applicable analogy since we are talking a technological difference of 154 years as the Narada was taken that far back in time. The Queen Mary was was serving as a troopship in WWII between 1938-1945. So subtracting 154 years would net us 1791. At best it would be like the QM going up against wooden frigates of the U.S. Civil War in the 1860's. It could be hurt by the Dahlgren guns, but it would still kick some ass.
-Mike

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Re: Quantifying the Wells Class

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Thu Jun 03, 2010 6:24 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Kor_Dahar_Master wrote: That is not a fair example and a terrible analogy, a more accurate analogy by todays standards would essentially be a mobile drilling platform or mining ship like the "Jules Verne" going back in time and kicking the crap out of 47 pre-dreadnought battleships.
No, it's a perfectly applicable analogy since we are talking a technological difference of 154 years as the Narada was taken that far back in time. The Queen Mary was was serving as a troopship in WWII between 1938-1945. So subtracting 154 years would net us 1791. At best it would be like the QM going up against wooden frigates of the U.S. Civil War in the 1860's. It could be hurt by the Dahlgren guns, but it would still kick some ass.
-Mike
Just because its the same number of years you are going retro does not mean its a fair comparison.

The technological advancements from the late 1700's to the mid 1900's pretty much include ALL of the Industrial Revolution.

The Industrial Revolution was a huge leap forwards in earths development in a revativly short period of time and nothing like the slower evolution of technology we see in the tech from TOS era to TNG era.

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Praeothmin
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Re: Quantifying the Wells Class

Post by Praeothmin » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:15 pm

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:
Praeothmin wrote:
Really?
Yet in ST VI: TUC, we see a fully shielded E-A getting fired at, and taking damage to its hull, and the same thing happened to the Excelsior...
When?, if you mean at the end scotty points out that the shields are collapsing and the very next torp punches a hole through the E-A saucer section. Before that all they get are a few black scorch marks from the torps as their shields are weakening (also reported by scotty).

The Excelsior raises shields as soon as it drops out of warp and after that gets shot at it takes a direct hit from below to the saucer section area but does not even get a black mark to show for it, the impact does knock a few ppl on their asses though.
First shot:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd2197.jpg

Seen from the side:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd2234.jpg

Looks like some damage to me, even with shields...

And this is the shot that went through:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd2256.jpg

Then Scotty says the shields are buckling...

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Re: Quantifying the Wells Class

Post by Kor_Dahar_Master » Thu Jun 03, 2010 8:52 pm

Praeothmin wrote:
First shot:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd2197.jpg

Seen from the side:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd2234.jpg

Looks like some damage to me, even with shields...

And this is the shot that went through:
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... hd2256.jpg

Then Scotty says the shields are buckling...
Those links aint working watch this:-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mIvJuFLqfTE

First torp hits black scorch mark no damage.

Second torp hits maybe a scorch mark (as we do not get a external shot for a while) but no damage.

Third shot hits near engineering and causes a problems with auxiluary power and a few sparks ect.

Forth shot causes a few more sparks but no real damage is reported.

Fifth shot gets scotty reporting that shields are weakening.

Excelsior gets hit by a torp a few ppl fall over but no damage or a scorch mark.

The enterprise seems to get hit again and we see ppl closing bulkhead doors.

Scotty reports shields collapsing.

The next Torp breaches the hull.


Yea so i suppose they did take a bit of minor damage before their shields dropped and the hit to the engineerng section caused problems with auxiliary power, but the real damage was done after the shields failed and by a single torp.

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Re: Quantifying the Wells Class

Post by Praeothmin » Fri Jun 04, 2010 5:03 pm

Can't look at videos from work, but I'll take a look on my DVD when I get back home, because as someone once pointed out to me, sometimes Youtube videos are edited and so don't show the proper order of things, or all that was seen...

And of course, the biggest damage would have been without shields, but it does seem to me like there was serious damage even with shields...

As Ah-nold would say:
"Ah'll be bak!"

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