The Borg: breaking the no limits fallacy

[411-RED]

Basically we know that if you disable at least 78% of the Borg-cube systems on your first shot, then you've beaten it, since they can't regenerate if you destroy that much.
So if you had enough Defiant-class ships approaching the cube while cloaked, and they all fired on it at the same time, then the cube would be decimated before it had a chance to adapt.

The USS Defiant was a special case. Other Defiant-class vessels were not equipped with cloaking devices.

However, even if they were all equipped with cloaking devices, I have doubts as to whether that would work or not. If the Borg were traveling to attack a Federation outpost, fleet, or planet, then I imagine they would be prepared to encounter Federation/Starfleet weapons, i.e., phasers, photon torpedoes, and quantum torpedoes. It would be logical to think they would already be adapted.

Flaws or not, the Defiant clearly could still pwn ANY other Federation ship in combat, so clearly these "flaws" weren't the reason it was discontinued.

Um, no.

What is special about the Defiant-class ships are they are so small, yet pack such a powerful punch, and it would be both more efficient and cost effective to produce fleets of the tiny, dedicated Defiant-class vessels for war, as opposed to lots of the larger Galaxy or Sovereign-class vessels. However, I think a number of classes, including the Galaxy, Sovereign, and Prometheus, could defeat a Defiant-class ship.

And likewise, they did this through pure PLOT-HOLE: i.e. the Borg pwned the entire Federation fleet at W359-- but not the Enterprise acting all by its lonesome, simply because of separating the saucer-section and some anti-matter spray blah-blah-blah completely baffles the Borg to the point that their commanding drone gets captured.

Locutus was speaking for the Borg, however I wouldn't call him their "commanding" drone.

All they managed to do was to throw lots of distractions at the Borg so they could beam on and retrieve a single drone, and so that the Enterprise-D, Starfleet's most advanced and most powerful vessel at the time, could survive for a few minutes. How does that relate in any way to an all out battle between the cube and a Federation fleet? The Enterprise-D didn't defeat the cube or noticeably damage it.

Again, this is pure Greg-Brady pwnage.

Right.

And what's that story about cohesion? Don't you think your average captain wouldn't know about, I don't know... concentrating firepower on the same point, on and on? And wouldn't other captains notice some ships doing so, and would do the same? What about firing in the center of any face of that Cube? It's obviously going to be closest point to the Cube's center. Quite an obvious point to shoot at.

Or, let's consider for a second that perhaps Picard knew a vulnerable spot on the Cube, a place which no one else know. Perhaps this was hinted at by the fact that, right before Picard took command of the fleet, we got a close up of him staring off distantly while we could hear a murmur of Borg voices? It was pretty obvious he used his link with the Borg to defeat the cube. It wasn't simply shooting at the same spot.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Basically we know that if you disable at least 78% of the Borg-cube systems on your first shot, then you've beaten it, since they can't regenerate if you destroy that much.
So if you had enough Defiant-class ships approaching the cube while cloaked, and they all fired on it at the same time, then the cube would be decimated before it had a chance to adapt.

Cloaked or uncloaked this is actually a fair point if you consider the damage the E-D inflicted on the cube in Q-who with its first barrage.

If starfleet considered that phaser shots of the same magnitude but on a different frequency could achieve the same level of damage then a few ships like the defiant dedicated to humping out as much firepower as possible in a short space of time (before the Borg adapted) would be a reasonable tactic to adopt.

I seem to remember some one saying that the admiral at wolf 359 sent ships in one or two at a time on strafing runs rather than all going in together but I'm not sure if that is correct or not. A tactic like that would be consistent with treks method of "delay until we find a funky solution" and i suppose it kinda worked (but perhaps not as intended) as it gave the E-D the time to catch up and use Picard.

However the idea of several defiant class overwhelming the cube with powerful shots in a short time tactic is a reasonable theory considering the knowledge they had on the Borg at that time.

The only problem i can find with it is that if 10-20 Defiants were enough to do that then even if the defiant is uber powerful then 50-100 normal star ships could achieve the same effect (the numbers in this comment are merely used to show the issue with the theory and are not a example of a true firepower comparison).

[411-RED]

Basically we know that if you disable at least 78% of
Cloaked or uncloaked this is actually a fair point if you consider the damage the E-D inflicted on the cube in Q-who with its first barrage.

The difference is that was the first time they engaged in combat with a Starfleet vessel. After that, they were ready for future engagements. The adaptations do not appear to be on a ship by ship or engagement by engagement basis, but apply to all vessels and future engagements.

For example, when Voyager first engaged a Borg vessel, I don't recall them gouging massive holes in it. Or, when the Enterprise-D first engages the Borg Cube in BOBW, its attacks didn't seem to even scratch the cube.

The only problem i can find with it is that if 10-20 Defiants were enough to do that then even if the defiant is uber powerful then 50-100 normal star ships could achieve the same effect (the numbers in this comment are merely used to show the issue with the theory and are not a example of a true firepower comparison).

Which shows why the tactic wouldn't work. When the fleet engaged the cube in First Contact, the opening barrage should have caused massive damage to the vessel, but obviously that was not the case.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Which shows why the tactic wouldn't work. When the fleet engaged the cube in First Contact, the opening barrage should have caused massive damage to the vessel, but obviously that was not the case.

Actually i was refering to starfleets mid set after Q-who, the data gained and the damage seen done by the E-D would indicate that if they could find a phaser frequency that could penitrate the borgs shields then a single starship could do massive damage (After all the E-D went from blasting dirty great holes to doing no damage).

[411-RED]

Which shows why the tactic wouldn't work. When the fleet engaged the cube in First Contact, the opening barrage should have caused massive damage to the vessel, but obviously that was not the case.

Actually i was refering to starfleets mid set after Q-who, the data gained and the damage seen done by the E-D would indicate that if they could find a phaser frequency that could penitrate the borgs shields then a single starship could do massive damage (After all the E-D went from blasting dirty great holes to doing no damage).

Yes, but isn't that obvious? Regardless of who is battling who, if one combatant gains the ability to bypass the opponent's shields, it will give them a huge advantage. The Bird of Prey versus the Enterprise-D in Generations, Dominion attack bugs versus the Odyssey in "The Jem'Hadar", etc.

Besides, even if they managed to get through the Borg's defense grid, the Borg would probably just adapt to the frequency changes in a short time.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Yes, but isn't that obvious? Regardless of who is battling who, if one combatant gains the ability to bypass the opponent's shields, it will give them a huge advantage. The Bird of Prey versus the Enterprise-D in Generations, Dominion attack bugs versus the Odyssey in "The Jem'Hadar", etc.

Besides, even if they managed to get through the Borg's defense grid, the Borg would probably just adapt to the frequency changes in a short time.

And that is why the Defiant exists, a group of defiants that if able to penitrate the defense grid has the firepower to destroy the cube asap before it adapts.

With the fire power figures from the E-D's shots in Q-WHO along with the scans of the amount of damage done by them AND the time between the first and last shot they have the ability to calculate roughly how much firepower over at least a minimum time it would take to vaporise a unshielded/adapted borg cube.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Seriously guys, a mod bothered to split stuff:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1650
No more Lakota, Defiant and related talks here, please.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Seriously guys, a mod bothered to split stuff:
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... f=8&t=1650
No more Lakota, Defiant and related talks here, please.

Shit that was me again wasnt it?, im really sorry dude i did not look at the thread name i just clicked "view active topics" clicked through them and replied to stuff.

[Mike DiCenso]

Well, he is talking about it in regards to damage done by ships to the Borg cubes...
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Well, he is talking about it in regards to damage done by ships to the Borg cubes...
-Mike

I missed the Cube word in the post. :/

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Well, he is talking about it in regards to damage done by ships to the Borg cubes...
-Mike

I missed the Cube word in the post. :/

Heh, maybe i should have read what i wrote as well then....:).