L.A.S.E.R. VS Federation Vessels

[theta_pinch]

Saying shields have a spin makes me think of the analogy of body panels on a car having a spin, which just doesn't make sense. Are they all rotating around the center, or rotating about their own centers (spinning in place, whether laterally or some other way), or what?

It gives me another headache.

preceding axially.around the emitter.

[Lucky]

How exactly would Federation shields spin?

Between your time period's poor understanding of quantum gravity and the temporal prime directive, I'm not able to explain it to you. ^_^

You already know that navigational deflectors are omni-directional even though they only face in one direction.

[Lucky]

Whenever a ship is hit with weapons fire, it is shaken. If shields did stop 100% of weapons' fire, there should be little to no effect on the ship itself. And as seen in TNG "The Phoenix", weapons fire can damage ships even if shields are up.

Which doesn't support the shield turning on and off. Ignoring quantum tunneling some things like polaron ignore shields until late DS9, and gravitational wavefronts(TNG: Hero Worship) shake the ship to death because they hit the shields rather then the ship shows the shaking is not necessarily because things get through the shields.

Yet matching the enemy's shield frequency was used multiple times to allow weapons fire to pass through opponent's shields, and in cases of opponents who can and do scan one's shield and weapons frequency, same has to be changed regularly in order to avoid them equploiting it (seen in Star Trek Generations, and just about every Borg episode).

You need to match the shield frequency to get in, but not out.

What does it matter if the shields are one way for certain things? There is clothing that takes moisture away from your skin, and other the=ing s that stop things like water from getting in, but still let air in. You are assuming that if something stops one thing it must stop everything equally and in both directions.

Here is a proof of concept.
http://www.globeturnoutgear.com/rescue- ... -barrier-2

Events > dialogue > visuals.

Which isn't helping your case events, visuals, and dialog do not support your stance, or at least you haven't provide the evidence yet..

1) If the ship firing out had to match its own shield frequency they would change frequency every time they fired, but they don't.

2) If the frequency was shields turing on and off then they would know the frequency at a glance, but they don't.

[Picard]

Whenever a ship is hit with weapons fire, it is shaken. If shields did stop 100% of weapons' fire, there should be little to no effect on the ship itself. And as seen in TNG "The Phoenix", weapons fire can damage ships even if shields are up.

Which doesn't support the shield turning on and off. Ignoring quantum tunneling some things like polaron ignore shields until late DS9, and gravitational wavefronts(TNG: Hero Worship) shake the ship to death because they hit the shields rather then the ship shows the shaking is not necessarily because things get through the shields.

Actually, it does. If my turn off/on theory is correct, then none of these things would be stopped completely by the shields.

Yet matching the enemy's shield frequency was used multiple times to allow weapons fire to pass through opponent's shields, and in cases of opponents who can and do scan one's shield and weapons frequency, same has to be changed regularly in order to avoid them equploiting it (seen in Star Trek Generations, and just about every Borg episode).

You need to match the shield frequency to get in, but not out.

Proof? Logic says that weapon's frequency would automatically be matched to that of shields.

What does it matter if the shields are one way for certain things? There is clothing that takes moisture away from your skin, and other the=ing s that stop things like water from getting in, but still let air in. You are assuming that if something stops one thing it must stop everything equally and in both directions.

Here is a proof of concept.
http://www.globeturnoutgear.com/rescue- ... -barrier-2

That is a physical barrier, and while I did think about a possibility of such thing, I don' remember any indication of it on the show.

1) If the ship firing out had to match its own shield frequency they would change frequency every time they fired, but they don't.

If shield frequqncy changes, logic dictates that weapon frequqncy would adjust automatically.

2) If the frequency was shields turing on and off then they would know the frequency at a glance, but they don't.

And if frequqncy was shields "dancing" around the ship it would be even easier to see at glance, and it wouldn't explain why freqency matching allows weapons to pass through.

[Lucky]

Actually, it does. If my turn off/on theory is correct, then none of these things would be stopped completely by the shields.

Read what you are responding to.

The gravitational wave front had destroyed a ship do to interacting with the shields. It shows the shaking when hit by a weapon is not necessarily do to bleed through.

Polaron show some things ignore shields completely, and that means bleed through is not necessarily do to the shield being turned off..

You need to show that the shields are flickering millions of times a second. With your theory there's not a reason to care about matching frequency so long as you are simply trying to kill the target. Matching is rather pointless if the shield is not there 257400000 times a second, and you are using faster then light weapons like they do in Star Trek.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... en0613.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz

Proof? Logic says that weapon's frequency would automatically be matched to that of shields.

Changing shield frequency and phaser frequency independently of the other.

TNG: Best of Both Worlds, Part 1
SHELBY: Mister La Forge has a plan to modulate shield nutation. Hopefully, that'll hold them off for awhile. 


LAFORGE: At the same time, we'll be retuning phasers to higher EM base emitting frequencies to try to disrupt their subspace field.

That is a physical barrier, and while I did think about a possibility of such thing, I don' remember any indication of it on the show.

There is no such thing as a physical barrier. Everything is force field interactions.

Here is another example of one way phenomenon, and it's gravitational:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hole

If shield frequqncy changes, logic dictates that weapon frequqncy would adjust automatically.

Except that they alter shield frequency and weapon frequency independently of the other, and by that theory, matching the targets shield frequency with your weapons would render you shields useless, but it does not.

And if frequqncy was shields "dancing" around the ship it would be even easier to see at glance, and it wouldn't explain why freqency matching allows weapons to pass through.

I have no idea what you mean by dancing, but you've failed to provide evidence.

[359]

The gravitational wave front had destroyed a ship do to interacting with the shields. It shows the shaking when hit by a weapon is not necessarily do to bleed through.

How does that work? Isn't, by definition, bleed though energy that gets through the shields? It doesn't really matter how, but if you have X energy hitting the shields and some subset y of X energy shakes that ship, then y is not being stopped by the shields. Thus by definition, y is bleed through.

Polaron show some things ignore shields completely, and that means bleed through is not necessarily do to the shield being turned off..

This is true, and I will go further to add it does not matter at what frequency the shields were to turn on and off. With either a sinusoidal, square, triangular, sawtooth, or whatever wave as long as it has equal intervals ≈50% of all energy, no matter ho much hits the shields, would get through. That is why shield frequency does not make sense to represent the shields turning on and off. Especially since, it seems same to assume, they have not physical thickness. And even if they did, that would only serve to make them proportionally better agains slower weapons and almost useless against fast things, like lasers.

With shields turning on and off, at high frequencies the frequency makes no difference as to how much gets through. That would be dependent on the duty cycle of the wave, and that would best hold on a square wave. Then they could adjust that fixed 50% to other values, but it would still be a fixed bleed though, no matter the yield, and no matter the weapon.

Further if shields are assumed to be gravity and therefor bend light, switching shields would not explain why we can still see the ship. Again the duty cycle matters. With a standard 50% duty cycle the ship would be 50% transparent. The higher the duty cycle, the more transparent, but the more effective the shields. The lower the duty cycle, the more visible the ship would be, but at that point the shields would be virtually useless.

There is no such thing as a physical barrier. Everything is force field interactions.

Looks "physical" enough to me.

[Picard]

Actually, it does. If my turn off/on theory is correct, then none of these things would be stopped completely by the shields.

Read what you are responding to.

The gravitational wave front had destroyed a ship do to interacting with the shields. It shows the shaking when hit by a weapon is not necessarily do to bleed through.

Polaron show some things ignore shields completely, and that means bleed through is not necessarily do to the shield being turned off..

You need to show that the shields are flickering millions of times a second. With your theory there's not a reason to care about matching frequency so long as you are simply trying to kill the target. Matching is rather pointless if the shield is not there 257400000 times a second, and you are using faster then light weapons like they do in Star Trek.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... en0613.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz

You forgot that shields almost never stop weapons completely. Even in the case of photon torpedoes, which aren't anything exotic.

Proof? Logic says that weapon's frequency would automatically be matched to that of shields.

Changing shield frequency and phaser frequency independently of the other.

TNG: Best of Both Worlds, Part 1
SHELBY: Mister La Forge has a plan to modulate shield nutation. Hopefully, that'll hold them off for awhile. 


LAFORGE: At the same time, we'll be retuning phasers to higher EM base emitting frequencies to try to disrupt their subspace field.

In which case all the cases where frequency matching allowed phasers to go though the shields of enemy ship shouldn't have happened.

That is a physical barrier, and while I did think about a possibility of such thing, I don' remember any indication of it on the show.

There is no such thing as a physical barrier. Everything is force field interactions.

Read what you wrote.

Here is another example of one way phenomenon, and it's gravitational:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hole

White hole is a theoretical phenomenon in a theoretical universe where laws of physics may well be completely opposite of those in our universe.

If shield frequqncy changes, logic dictates that weapon frequqncy would adjust automatically.

Except that they alter shield frequency and weapon frequency independently of the other, and by that theory, matching the targets shield frequency with your weapons would render you shields useless, but it does not.

In short, even writers had no idea what frequency was supposed to mean.

[theta_pinch]

Actually, it does. If my turn off/on theory is correct, then none of these things would be stopped completely by the shields.

Read what you are responding to.

The gravitational wave front had destroyed a ship do to interacting with the shields. It shows the shaking when hit by a weapon is not necessarily do to bleed through.

Polaron show some things ignore shields completely, and that means bleed through is not necessarily do to the shield being turned off..

You need to show that the shields are flickering millions of times a second. With your theory there's not a reason to care about matching frequency so long as you are simply trying to kill the target. Matching is rather pointless if the shield is not there 257400000 times a second, and you are using faster then light weapons like they do in Star Trek.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... en0613.jpg
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hertz

You forgot that shields almost never stop weapons completely. Even in the case of photon torpedoes, which aren't anything exotic.

Proof? Logic says that weapon's frequency would automatically be matched to that of shields.

Changing shield frequency and phaser frequency independently of the other.

TNG: Best of Both Worlds, Part 1
SHELBY: Mister La Forge has a plan to modulate shield nutation. Hopefully, that'll hold them off for awhile. 


LAFORGE: At the same time, we'll be retuning phasers to higher EM base emitting frequencies to try to disrupt their subspace field.

In which case all the cases where frequency matching allowed phasers to go though the shields of enemy ship shouldn't have happened.

That is a physical barrier, and while I did think about a possibility of such thing, I don' remember any indication of it on the show.

There is no such thing as a physical barrier. Everything is force field interactions.

Read what you wrote.

Here is another example of one way phenomenon, and it's gravitational:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_hole

White hole is a theoretical phenomenon in a theoretical universe where laws of physics may well be completely opposite of those in our universe.

If shield frequqncy changes, logic dictates that weapon frequqncy would adjust automatically.

Except that they alter shield frequency and weapon frequency independently of the other, and by that theory, matching the targets shield frequency with your weapons would render you shields useless, but it does not.

In short, even writers had no idea what frequency was supposed to mean.

Perhaps shield frequency isn't actually turning on and off the shields rapidly but changing the polarity of the shield similar to the oscillations of a changing electrical field or magnetic field. Instead of matching frequency so the beam will pass through, they'd match frequency to prevent the beam from being blocked by the graviton/gravitational distortions (this would probably occur by spreading the energy away from the point of impact.) The beam would also gain energy due to matching phase with the shield preventing the discovery of the shield frequency. The apparent bleed through in this case isn't the result of energy actually bleeding through the shield; it's actually the beam pushing against the shield which transfers force to whatever is generating the shield which in this case is the ship. Conservation of momentum would be the cause of the ship rocking and sparks.

[Picard]

Perhaps shield frequency isn't actually turning on and off the shields rapidly but changing the polarity of the shield similar to the oscillations of a changing electrical field or magnetic field. Instead of matching frequency so the beam will pass through, they'd match frequency to prevent the beam from being blocked by the graviton/gravitational distortions (this would probably occur by spreading the energy away from the point of impact.) The beam would also gain energy due to matching phase with the shield preventing the discovery of the shield frequency. The apparent bleed through in this case isn't the result of energy actually bleeding through the shield; it's actually the beam pushing against the shield which transfers force to whatever is generating the shield which in this case is the ship. Conservation of momentum would be the cause of the ship rocking and sparks.

Possible.

[359]

Perhaps shield frequency isn't actually turning on and off the shields rapidly but changing the polarity of the shield similar to the oscillations of a changing electrical field or magnetic field. Instead of matching frequency so the beam will pass through, they'd match frequency to prevent the beam from being blocked by the graviton/gravitational distortions (this would probably occur by spreading the energy away from the point of impact.) The beam would also gain energy due to matching phase with the shield preventing the discovery of the shield frequency. The apparent bleed through in this case isn't the result of energy actually bleeding through the shield; it's actually the beam pushing against the shield which transfers force to whatever is generating the shield which in this case is the ship. Conservation of momentum would be the cause of the ship rocking and sparks.

So we're back to shields being an impossible sic-fi technology that we really have no idea how or why or in what way the function, they just do... Sounds good.

The apparent bleed through in this case isn't the result of energy actually bleeding through the shield; it's actually the beam pushing against the shield which transfers force to whatever is generating the shield which in this case is the ship.

Acutally, they often suffer thermal or structural damage to the hull through shields. This implies that it actually is bleeding through the shields. Also it gets worse as the shields weaken.

In fact the pattern of damage and stated shield percent suggests that the stated percentage is not remaining shield "hit points" or anything, but shield effectiveness. As the percentage gets lower they take more damage but the shields seem to fall more slowly percentage wise. When the percentage is higher, they take little to no damage but a similar hit drops the shield percentage further. This also explains the phrase "shields are holding" as they took a hit but didn't experience a loss of shield effectiveness.

[theta_pinch]

Perhaps shield frequency isn't actually turning on and off the shields rapidly but changing the polarity of the shield similar to the oscillations of a changing electrical field or magnetic field. Instead of matching frequency so the beam will pass through, they'd match frequency to prevent the beam from being blocked by the graviton/gravitational distortions (this would probably occur by spreading the energy away from the point of impact.) The beam would also gain energy due to matching phase with the shield preventing the discovery of the shield frequency. The apparent bleed through in this case isn't the result of energy actually bleeding through the shield; it's actually the beam pushing against the shield which transfers force to whatever is generating the shield which in this case is the ship. Conservation of momentum would be the cause of the ship rocking and sparks.

So we're back to shields being an impossible sic-fi technology that we really have no idea how or why or in what way the function, they just do... Sounds good.

The apparent bleed through in this case isn't the result of energy actually bleeding through the shield; it's actually the beam pushing against the shield which transfers force to whatever is generating the shield which in this case is the ship.

Acutally, they often suffer thermal or structural damage to the hull through shields. This implies that it actually is bleeding through the shields. Also it gets worse as the shields weaken.

Perhaps. That doesn't necessarily mean that the shields turn on and off though. It would be logical to assume at least part of the energy makes it through the distortion.

[359]

That doesn't necessarily mean that the shields turn on and off though

Definitely, I think turning on and off is a bit silly as it is in no way beneficial.

Furthermore, forcefields are described in ENT: "Vox Sola" as being stable EM barriers.

[theta_pinch]

That doesn't necessarily mean that the shields turn on and off though

Definitely, I think turning on and off is a bit silly as it is in no way beneficial.

Furthermore, forcefields are described in ENT: "Vox Sola" as being stable EM barriers.

Actually those forcefields evolved into the containment fields they use; shields use gravitons as shown in a screenshot in star trek generatioms.

[Lucky]

You forgot that shields almost never stop weapons completely. Even in the case of photon torpedoes, which aren't anything exotic.

1) Weapons designed to deal with the defenses they have to deal with being effective is hardly a good example.

2) Since when are photon torpedos not exotic weapons?
New Ground: Technobabble ion radiation radiation

The Quality of Life: Shaped charges

Half a Life: Blowup a star, shields, faster then light

The Wounded: faster then light

Star Trek Generations: faster then light

Code of Honor: flash bang setting that is meant to be threatening

QWho: photon torpedos explode in a reddish orange fog
http://tng.trekcore.com/episodes/season2/2x16/

Workforce Part 2: Hitting a photon torpedo with a phaser will cause a photonic shock wave.

Photon torpedos don't simply mix matter and antimatter to make a boom, and the above ignores the fact that antimatter in Star Trek often has some odd properties as well.

In which case all the cases where frequency matching allowed phasers to go though the shields of enemy ship shouldn't have happened.

And when has an out going weapon ever had to match the shield frequency of the ship firing? You keep saying that because incoming things need to match a poorly defined property of Star Trek shields (frequency) an out going thing must always match the frequency, and yet you seem to have no evidence this is the case.

Read what you wrote.

Everything is basically empty space given the illusion of being solid.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fundamental_interaction

White hole is a theoretical phenomenon in a theoretical universe where laws of physics may well be completely opposite of those in our universe.

You wanted an different example, and I gave you one.

It seems like you are moving the goal posts from my perspective while ignoring the fact that a navigational deflector and warp drive which casually create worm holes with gravity by moving the emitters are used in in planetary atmosphere with no ill effect. There comes a point where you need to just shut up and except that they do it, but we don't know how.

In short, even writers had no idea what frequency was supposed to mean.

They likely had little idea as to what they meant, but what they wrote does not match what you are claiming as far as I can tell.

[Lucky]

How does that work? Isn't, by definition, bleed though energy that gets through the shields? It doesn't really matter how, but if you have X energy hitting the shields and some subset y of X energy shakes that ship, then y is not being stopped by the shields. Thus by definition, y is bleed through.

"Bleed Through" seems to normally be defined as a percentage of the attack that is not stopped by the shield, and thus causing the shaking, but Hero Worship shows that the shield being hit can cause the shaking on its own. It is the difference between spalling and a sabot going through the armor and directly killing the crew of a tank crew.

In the case of "Hero Worship", putting more power to shields was going to destroy the ship while normally doing so helps protect the ship better, and it is also stated that disruptors cause damage in a manner consistent to what the wavefront would do which would imply what we see disruptors do on screen may not be accurate.

This is true, and I will go further to add it does not matter at what frequency the shields were to turn on and off. With either a sinusoidal, square, triangular, sawtooth, or whatever wave as long as it has equal intervals ≈50% of all energy, no matter ho much hits the shields, would get through. That is why shield frequency does not make sense to represent the shields turning on and off. Especially since, it seems same to assume, they have not physical thickness. And even if they did, that would only serve to make them proportionally better agains slower weapons and almost useless against fast things, like lasers.

With shields turning on and off, at high frequencies the frequency makes no difference as to how much gets through. That would be dependent on the duty cycle of the wave, and that would best hold on a square wave. Then they could adjust that fixed 50% to other values, but it would still be a fixed bleed though, no matter the yield, and no matter the weapon.

Further if shields are assumed to be gravity and therefor bend light, switching shields would not explain why we can still see the ship. Again the duty cycle matters. With a standard 50% duty cycle the ship would be 50% transparent. The higher the duty cycle, the more transparent, but the more effective the shields. The lower the duty cycle, the more visible the ship would be, but at that point the shields would be virtually useless.

1) If the shields were turned on most of the time they would block more then 50%, but I agree that light speed and faster weapons would be getting through completely at random. If it was turned on for twice as long as it was turned off the shield should block more then 50%.

That said, photon torpedos are faster then light weapons. They have something like mini-warp drives like a class nine probe so just randomly ignoring shields should happen. The shield is turning on and off millions of times a second.

2) Hero Worship implies the shields are similar to the gravitational wave front, but different.
Hrro Worship
PICARD: No signs of phaser burns on the hull. 

LAFORGE: No, sir. Torsional stress levels point to a disrupter-style weapon. 

DATA: Fracture points indicate that the energy burst came from a range of less than three thousand metres. 

PICARD: But that's a strategy consistent with a cloaked vessel. Romulan. Or Klingon. But we're quite a distance from either of their territories. 

DATA: The Breen have outposts in this sector. The attack on the Vico is consistent with their battle tactics and their level of technology.
_-_-_-_
(the single shot branches off in several directions) 

PICARD: Explanation, Mister Data. 

DATA: Phaser energy was reflected by the gravitational wavefronts. It is similar to the phenomenon distorting our sensor signals. 

PICARD: Phasers and sensors both useless? Mister Data, this reflection phenomenon, would it have the same effect on a disruptor-style weapon? 

DATA: Yes, sir. Disruptors would be ineffectual. 

PICARD: And a ship's cloaking field? 

DATA: It would be extremely difficult to maintain.
Star Trek Generations
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... en0613.jpg

http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ed_589.jpg
Looks "physical" enough to me.

http://amasci.com/weird/unusual/e-wall.html