Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

For polite and reasoned discussion of Star Wars and/or Star Trek.
Cocytus
Jedi Knight
Posts: 435
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:04 am

Re: Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

Post by Cocytus » Sat Oct 03, 2009 9:00 pm

Worf and his Mek'leth made short work of the one drone. If Achilles takes them one at a time, and avoids the tubules (just chop the arm off. After all, the one Worf cut off was the injection hand, since the tubules always seem to be on the hand that isn't replaced with some mechanical appendage.)

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:25 am

There were actually quite a large number of Borg drones in the E-E's engineering. Some beamed over from the destroyed Sphere, and many were E-E personel who were assimilated.

You can see in the Trekcore images here (remember to cut and paste):

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... ct1000.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... ct0568.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... ct0645.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... ct1360.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... ct1557.jpg

http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... ct0718.jpg

... That at least 8 Borg drones at various stages of assimilation quickly surround Data during his escape attempt. You can also see in the later images that there are quite a few alcoves and drones around the lower deck as well as on the upper levels, and a fair number out in the corriders. Also don't forget that Data is grabbed by the legs and pulled into engineering underneath the partially opened door, and that first unlucky E-E crewman Porter gets set upon rather quickly while he's crawling up into the enviromental systems conduit, and Eiger is also set on very rapidly.
-Mike
Last edited by Mike DiCenso on Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:31 am, edited 1 time in total.

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Oct 05, 2009 5:30 am

Cocytus wrote:Worf and his Mek'leth made short work of the one drone. If Achilles takes them one at a time, and avoids the tubules (just chop the arm off. After all, the one Worf cut off was the injection hand, since the tubules always seem to be on the hand that isn't replaced with some mechanical appendage.)
It took all of Worf's attention just for one Borg drone while he along with Capt. Picard and Lt. Hawk were fighting just a handful of drones on the deflector dish. In a confined corrider and with 6-12 drones swarming in on him, he's not going to do so well. And remember that Worf is established to be much stronger and a bit faster than an ordinary human as especially is Data who was quickly overwhelmed on two different occasions.
-Mike

User avatar
Mr. Oragahn
Admiral
Posts: 6865
Joined: Sun Dec 03, 2006 11:58 am
Location: Paradise Mountain

Re: Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

Post by Mr. Oragahn » Mon Oct 05, 2009 2:28 pm

Mike, even copy/paste doesn't work.
It used to, but something changed in their scripts.

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

Post by Praeothmin » Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:11 pm

One tactic that they could have used, and that Achilles uses to much efficiency, is using a shield to protect from "melee" weapons, which the tubules would be.
I'm sure Starfleet could create shields made out of those "phaser-resisting crates", and could issue them out to all their troops expected to go into melee combat... :)

Cocytus
Jedi Knight
Posts: 435
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:04 am

Re: Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

Post by Cocytus » Mon Oct 05, 2009 11:52 pm

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Cocytus wrote:Worf and his Mek'leth made short work of the one drone. If Achilles takes them one at a time, and avoids the tubules (just chop the arm off. After all, the one Worf cut off was the injection hand, since the tubules always seem to be on the hand that isn't replaced with some mechanical appendage.)
It took all of Worf's attention just for one Borg drone while he along with Capt. Picard and Lt. Hawk were fighting just a handful of drones on the deflector dish. In a confined corrider and with 6-12 drones swarming in on him, he's not going to do so well. And remember that Worf is established to be much stronger and a bit faster than an ordinary human as especially is Data who was quickly overwhelmed on two different occasions.
-Mike
In fairness to Data, he was surprised the first time, and the second time was the result of the sensation of pain, something he had never experienced. Achilles is no ordinary human either. But even if it's just ordinary humans, contact weapons have been proven effective, even if employing them in close-quarters combat against drones is quite dangeous. Besides, it does take a few minutes after nanoprobe injection before the identity is overwhelmed and the hive mind takes over. In that time, victims are pretty defenseless.
Praeothmin wrote:One tactic that they could have used, and that Achilles uses to much efficiency, is using a shield to protect from "melee" weapons, which the tubules would be. I'm sure Starfleet could create shields made out of those "phaser-resisting crates", and could issue them out to all their troops expected to go into melee combat... :)
One problem. In "Scorpion" the Doctor states the tubules can penetrate any known alloy or energy field.

The Dude
Jedi Knight
Posts: 546
Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm

Re: Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

Post by The Dude » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:13 am

Cocytus wrote:
One problem. In "Scorpion" the Doctor states the tubules can penetrate any known alloy or energy field.
Penetrate instantly, quickly, over several hours? Yeah, they can penetrate any known alloy or field, great. But how long does it take? If it's long enough for the Red Shirt to notice and toss down his shield of transparent aluminum (or whatever material) and get away it's done it's job.

Cocytus
Jedi Knight
Posts: 435
Joined: Sat Jan 12, 2008 6:04 am

Re: Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

Post by Cocytus » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:39 am

That's an interesting question. On the surface it makes sense for penetration to be immediate, otherwise what's the point, but certainly there should be some limits on the tubule's penetrative abilities. They're not made of neutronium, so far as we know.

It could be, given that no one has ever tried, that energy fields capable of stopping the tubules require too much energy, or that material shields capable of doing the job are prohibitively heavy to carry. It makes sense from the Collective's perspective. Their goal is to assimilate, ergo the first-line tool of assimilation should be as implacable as possible.

User avatar
Praeothmin
Jedi Master
Posts: 3920
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
Location: Quebec City

Re: Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

Post by Praeothmin » Tue Oct 06, 2009 12:30 pm

Cocytus wrote:It could be, given that no one has ever tried, that energy fields capable of stopping the tubules require too much energy,
Or it could be, given the ability of the Borg to adapt to pretty much any type of energy, that their tubules don't penetrate so much as "nullify" the field in their vicinity.
Cocytus wrote:On the surface it makes sense for penetration to be immediate, otherwise what's the point, but certainly there should be some limits on the tubule's penetrative abilities.
Well, when has anyone tried to protect himself behind a shield made of Tritanium?
Even a 1cm thick shield would surely be extremely resistent, and would surely require more then 1 second for penetration.
And while it makes sense for penetration to be immediate on persons, it doesn't need to be so in materials...

Mike DiCenso
Security Officer
Posts: 5839
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm

Re: Why does the UFP us such reckless tactic fighting the Borg.

Post by Mike DiCenso » Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:09 pm

Cocytus wrote: In fairness to Data, he was surprised the first time, and the second time was the result of the sensation of pain, something he had never experienced. Achilles is no ordinary human either. But even if it's just ordinary humans, contact weapons have been proven effective, even if employing them in close-quarters combat against drones is quite dangeous. Besides, it does take a few minutes after nanoprobe injection before the identity is overwhelmed and the hive mind takes over. In that time, victims are pretty defenseless.
If you assume the original mythological Achilles, then yes. But a historical Achilles is something entirely different. If you want to waste time killing all the nanoprobed victims, then you're putting yourself at higher risk as the Borg will just use that distraction to come after you. Getting back to Data, yes he was suprised the first time, but I would note that in his escape attempt, he was rapidly being surrounded by 8 or more drones (Data had tossed two drones down the warp core shaft before that). More were on the way until Data was incapacitated by the pain, and the Queen waved off the reinforcements. So no, Data probably wasn't going to win that one, either.
-Mike

Post Reply