The SSD vs an ambassador class and two excelsiors

[Who is like God arbour]

WILGA, all the reasons ST ships have to fight at knife range except for Torpedo danger) also apply to SW ships: shorter reaction time, weapon spam on one specific location, etc...

No. The difference in Star Trek is, that the weapons of the enemy can reach you even over a 100'00 kilometre distance. Usually it is not possible to shoot at the enemy while staying out of the weapons range of said enemy. And then it can makes sense to go as close to your enemy as possible.

But when there is the possibility to stay out of the weapons range of you enemy and shoot on it nevertheless, it makes only sense to use that advantage. Benjamin Maxwell has used exactly that tactic where it was possible and shot on the Cardassian ships while staying out of their weapons range.

Your mistake is that you assume that the StarFleet ships will not use a tactical advantage they have over the SSD. But you are not providing a convincing reason. You are only referring to instances where such ships couldn't use such a tactical advantage because it may not have been there in that instances; either because the Cardassians have increased their weapons range after the incident with the Phoenix or because the potential velocities of the Cardassian and Dominion ships prevents the exploitation of such an advantage - especially in fleet manoeuvres.

The SSD will have a very good weapon coverage because it has many more weapons than an ISD, already bristling with guns...

Agreed. When the StarFleet ships are in the weapons range of the SSD, they will get hit. How often depends on the distance and manoeuvring of the ships.
How much damage the SSDs weapons are making is another question.

And these "subspace-based" sensors are affected by simple radiation many times, so EM ECM should also hamper them if poweful enough...

My first question was: What's your evidence that StarFleet ships are engaging enemy ships at short range because of ECM?

[Mike DiCenso]

Range from Star Trek ships are not the question here as we have seen many times distances in the thousands to tens of thousands of km used from TOS to even the Star Wars FX-influenced TNG-era series.

The Executor stood up to the entire Rebel fleet? I think not. It was rather randomly attacked in the opening of the battle by a Nebulon-B frigate and possibly some of the smaller Alderaanian corvettes. But the entire fleet was not solely focused on pounding on the SSD in that battle. When Admiral Ackbar actually does order the concentration of all firepower on the massive ship, the whole thing barely lasts a minute before the two A-wings take out the bridge shields, then the one lone A-wing crashed into the bridge and totally destroys it. You guys know the rest of the story.

So given what we know from the movies and TCW about SW firepower, I'm fairly certain that if the Ambassador and the two Excelsiors are careful and use their full abilities, they will prevail. However, if they just sit there, the SSD will probably launch off enough fighters that they'll be overwhelmed trying to swat a bunch of gnats that the SSD could get in some damaging shots, and possibly win.
-Mike

[sonofccn]

I disagree, Picard, because mst of the fights in ST, like 90-95%, are at short range, just like the fights in SW.
Why?
Because of ECM.

Please correct me if I'm misremembering, like I usually am, but the one time I remember ECM being used against engaging starships was in the Wounded(TNG). Again I'm sorry if I'm simply flubbing something but I don't remember electronic counter measures really cropping up unless ones counts hiding about in a planet's magnetic field or some such.

[Mike DiCenso]

The Reliant jammed the Enterprise's communications in TWoK, and cloaking devices are an ultimate form of ECM by rendering visual as well as most sensor systems ineffective.
-Mike

[Praeothmin]

WILGA, if ST ships really close the distance to "minimize reaction time", then why are their enemies so stupid as to wait for the closing ship to be close enough to reduce their reaction time before firing, then?
That would be pretty dumb, wouldn't it?
I doubt every enemy ship Captain that faced Starfleet was that stupid.

Plus, as sonofccn has said, we have heard many times of enemy ships "jamming" communications, or even sensors of other ships, what we would call ECM, and as Mike said, cloaking devices are a form of ECM, if indirectly...

So while we may not have direct references to ECM being used, we have many more inferences to it than we have of "short ranges for lower enemy reaction time" explaining such short ranges.
Plus, most of the fights at long range were the affairs of a few vessels only, so it is highly probable that ECM is harder when the ship you are facing is as powerful as yours, or has better sensors...
But as soon as we have big fleets facing each other, we are back at knife-fighting ranges...

And while I don't believe the entire Rebel fleet was engaging the SSD before Akbar's order, I don't believe two Excelsiors and 1 Ambassador are up to the task of taking out the SSD...

[sonofccn]

The Reliant jammed the Enterprise's communications in TWoK, and cloaking devices are an ultimate form of ECM by rendering visual as well as most sensor systems ineffective.
-Mike

Thank you for the TWoK example. As to cloaks I guess your right, I've never really thought of them along those lines.

[sonofccn]

Plus, as sonofccn has said, we have heard many times of enemy ships "jamming" communications, or even sensors of other ships, what we would call ECM, and as Mike said, cloaking devices are a form of ECM, if indirectly...

Uh,if I may be so bold, I was asking for examples. Mike DiCenso was the one who provided the examples.

WILGA, if ST ships really close the distance to "minimize reaction time", then why are their enemies so stupid as to wait for the closing ship to be close enough to reduce their reaction time before firing, then?

Possibly to simialrly minimize reaction time, as well as maximum range being relativly small compared to sublight drives which can flitter about fairly easily across a star system.

So while we may not have direct references to ECM being used, we have many more inferences to it than we have of "short ranges for lower enemy reaction time" explaining such short ranges.
Plus, most of the fights at long range were the affairs of a few vessels only, so it is highly probable that ECM is harder when the ship you are facing is as powerful as yours, or has better sensors...
But as soon as we have big fleets facing each other, we are back at knife-fighting ranges...

Well I don't disagree starfleet tends to fight at spitting ranges I'm still not convinced ECM is the culprit, at least moreso than decreasing enemy reaction time. Which inferences are there specificly for reducing weapons range?

And while I don't believe the entire Rebel fleet was engaging the SSD before Akbar's order, I don't believe two Excelsiors and 1 Ambassador are up to the task of taking out the SSD...

I guess it depends on what your view of the SSD class. To me it was a white elephant project not worth the equivilent mass of ISD's you could have built. It may be just me but for such a super ship she didn't really throw her weight around before being wiped out by the Rebel fleet, relativly still compared to how agile Federation ships can fly about, after a minute or so of concertrated firepower.

[Praeothmin]

What is ECM, except a Jamming Signal of some sort?

We've seen this many times before in ST, in TNG, in DS9, in Voy, in Ent...

Possibly to simialrly minimize reaction time, as well as maximum range being relativly small compared to sublight drives which can flitter about fairly easily across a star system.

Well then, I fail to see why this cannot apply to the SSD as well.
You see, if it starts saturating an area with fire at close range, then the targets have less time to react and evade fire, just as it is for ST.
And while we're on the matter of evasion, while some ST ships do maneuver very well, Excelsiors never demonstrated the maneuverability of Mirandas or even Nebulas...
If we look at all the battles in DS9, what we mainly see are ships going in straight lines firing at each other.
Not much evading there...

Which inferences are there specificly for reducing weapons range?

The fact that most of the fights take place at knife-fighting range...
The fact that we know ships in ST can jam sensors and communications, so jamming sensors will affect their targetting ability...

And again, any advantage ST can obtain from fighting at close range is the same for SW.
Even though I agree SW vessels are less maneuverable than ST ships, the Excelsiors and Ambassador classes are not in the Defiant's, or even the Miranda class, in terms of maneuverability...

This is the ROF of an ISD in ANH, when it attacks the Tantive IV (look closely at 1:59 and up).
If an SSD only has 10 times the number of weapons, then it can fire ten times as many shots in the same period...
More than enough to saturate the ST ships area with fire...
And if the ships show this maneuverability, then the Fed ships are done...

To me it was a white elephant project not worth the equivilent mass of ISD's you could have built. It may be just me but for such a super ship she didn't really throw her weight around before being wiped out by the Rebel fleet, relativly still compared to how agile Federation ships can fly about, after a minute or so of concertrated firepower

While it may very well be a white elephant, and I'm sure its mass in ISD would have been better (I share the same opinion about the DS), it still doesn't make it so weak as to be beaten by 2 Excelsiors and 1 Ambassador, especially since most Federation ships do not maneuver like Defiants or Mirandas...

[Admiral Breetai]

ECM in trek likely is not nearly the same thing as it is in Wars especially considering trek ships have some of the more insane sensor feats such as monitoring solar systems in real time and being able to detect certain small bio sings on planets from orbit or just entering the system

if its jamming tech its likely an entirely separate caliber

as to Dominion war fleet engagements The Cardassians blow..they really are a pathetic race Fed fighters where blasting their cap ships to pieces..and dominion weaponry pissed on shielding and ripped through pretty much everything until they adapted (if they did unless they just built tougher ships) whether you fought them up close or at a range you where going to take bumps...better to get up close and personal where you can use your versatility while wiping away the scrubs..i guess was the thinking

honestly obvious PIS is obvious..writers messed up

[Praeothmin]

Admiral Breetai, while I do agree Sensors in ST are better than in SW, in TCW we've seen a few sensor sweeps that were almost as good as in ST, and even in ST, we've seen bad Sensor moments, especially Tricorders.
I remember in DS9 when Kira, using a Tricorder, wasn't even able to find the person she was looking for, even though he was hiding in the same house Kira was searching, Tricorder in hand...

Plus, in TCW, the bad guy detected Anakin's cloaked ship using the ship's magnetic signature, something we've never heard tried in ST...
So while in general ST Sensors are better, they are not invulnerable, and can be jammed by sources sufficiently powerful, such as a ship with 100 times their volume, for example...

[sonofccn]

Well then, I fail to see why this cannot apply to the SSD as well.
You see, if it starts saturating an area with fire at close range, then the targets have less time to react and evade fire, just as it is for ST.

That's seems reasonable which is likely why its was considered a "bold move" when Riker suggested it since it cuts both ways.

And while we're on the matter of evasion, while some ST ships do maneuver very well, Excelsiors never demonstrated the maneuverability of Mirandas or even Nebulas...
If we look at all the battles in DS9, what we mainly see are ships going in straight lines firing at each other.
Not much evading there...

I won't pretend ST ships are always jinking around like a jet fighter but you surely are not claiming Excelsiors are incapable of manuvers, after all the old NX class certainly was capable of more extensive flight patterns than the Rebel fleet the SSD failed to put a dent in.

The fact that most of the fights take place at knife-fighting range...

Forgive me but that sounds like circular logic. X happens because of Y and Y is correct because X happens. We know they fight at knife ranges some of the time and we know they have messed with opposing starship's sensors. However to link these to phenomon strikes me as premature, strikes me at least that if this was the case one would expect it to have been mentioned. Talk of improving sensor systems to combat Dominoin jamming, complaints it was so thick you couldn't see past the mark I eyeball range. I guess what I'm trying to say is obviously something convinced you of this so...give me the sales pitch. Lay it all out, the body of evidence in support of your theroy.

This is the ROF of an ISD in ANH, when it attacks the Tantive IV (look closely at 1:59 and up).
If an SSD only has 10 times the number of weapons, then it can fire ten times as many shots in the same period...

I counted, and please correct me if I'm wrong, about maybe three or four strikes on the Tantive IV or whatever its called with the crippling blow seeming to happen more by sheer luck than markmenship. Against a target at spitball range not manuvering in the slightest. Even the slow lumbering gait of a starfleet battlegroup would have posed a more difficult target if only because their relation to the star destroyer would be constantly changing.

This is a Dominon War era refit Excelsior. Notice the way it spins and alters its heading to intercept the Defiant between 0:37- and 0:38? I'd wager thats slightly more agile than the Rebel ships which engaged the SSD. Than from 00:57-1:01 it opens fire with visually firing two seperate beams between the 57 second mark and 59 with atleast a third "shake" when we cut back to the Defiant's bridge between 1:00-1:01. Later, once the battle starts in earnst, from 1:51-1:57 I counted about six or seven phaser strikes on the Defiant which I don't think is that much of a slouch and clearly while old the refits still have some teeth left in them.

More than enough to saturate the ST ships area with fire...

Saturate the area yes, the question is can the SSD hit the three enemy vessels enough times to bring their shields down and blast them to cinders before its own shields down. Those bolts weren't knocking around the rebel blockaid runner or seeming to do mammoth damage until it struck the segment which exploded and I'd be willing to bet dollars to donoughts even an old Ambassador class it tougher than the Tantive.

And if the ships show this maneuverability, then the Fed ships are done...

Actually while they did stupidly run into the enemy formation like knights of old once they mixed up while hardly flittering about like bats out of hell they did perform some manuvers. The 1:41 mark as the two fleet merge a good looking place to start.

While it may very well be a white elephant, and I'm sure its mass in ISD would have been better (I share the same opinion about the DS), it still doesn't make it so weak as to be beaten by 2 Excelsiors and 1 Ambassador, especially since most Federation ships do not maneuver like Defiants or Mirandas...

In and of itself you are correct but we have seen the SSD class in combat and it neither owned a flotilla of enemy ships with manuverbility no better and likely far worse than what this task force can pull nor tanked an obscene amount of damage before it was wiped out. In essence what we are asking each other is can the SSD pump out enough damage onto the Trek ships to pulverize them before they turn it into the largest piece of slag in the galaxy and I have seen nothing to suggest an overwhelming margin of error in the SSD's favor.

Just to restate my position I believe the fight could go either way and will heavily depend on what the indiviudal crews do.

[Praeothmin]

I won't pretend ST ships are always jinking around like a jet fighter but you surely are not claiming Excelsiors are incapable of manuvers

Of course not, but Excelsiors are not Mirandas either.
The Excelsior you linke to is the Lakota, in and of itself an exception, a ship almost as powerful as a Defiant, and refit with all the latest treknology possible.
If you make the fight 2 Lakotas with the Ambassador, than yes, I favor the ST ships as well...

Forgive me but that sounds like circular logic.

You're right, so let me try to explain myself better:
We know most of the battles in ST (say 90%) happen a spitball distance, the same kind of distances we see in SW.
We need to find a reason for this.

I feel it's hypocritical to say ST fights at spitball ranges only to diminish enemy reaction time, and refuse that the same can be said for SW...
While both universes' ships maneuver differently, both their targetting sensors do so as well.
Remember how a lot of Trekkies swear by ST's infaillible targetting sensors?
Well, those excellent sensors (which still miss ships going in straight lines sometimes) are facing maneuverable ships.
In SW, the ships are less maneuverable, yes, but the targetting is also crappy, so even a beached whale, if given time, will be able to evade fire if it's fired upon from a long distance (remember the Mon Calamari ship doing a 180 to evade the DS II's shield?).
So, if ST ships fire a spitball distance only because they want to minimize enemy reaction, then we should also assume the same for SW.

Now, it's even worse if we assume ST has no ECM, because we know SW does (the first DS's magnetic shielding, the Empire in RotJ was jamming scanners, TCW jamming, etc, etc...), which would then impede ST since it never faced an enemy with ECM.
Except we know ST knows about jamming as well, because they also use it many times...

And so, we also get to this gem: when fighting in a tight battle formation, where the enemy cannot evade for fear of colliding with an ally like in most DS9 fleet battles, why the hell shoot at spitball distance?
The intelligent thing would be to unload everything you've got at the center of the formation, and relish in the havoc and destruction you are causing...
But they don't...
Why not?
We're not told explicitely, but then we know of something which could do this, and which ST knows and uses: Jamming, i.e., ECM...

And I find it hilarious that a lot of Trekkies are also quite willing to elaborate strategies for ST using one shot weapons, or technology we know ST uses, but then refuse the possibility of ECM warfare in ST when we know they have the capability, and used such a thing many times (the Feds, or their enemies)...

I counted, and please correct me if I'm wrong, about maybe three or four strikes on the Tantive IV or whatever its called with the crippling blow seeming to happen more by sheer luck than markmenship. Against a target at spitball range not manuvering in the slightest. Even the slow lumbering gait of a starfleet battlegroup would have posed a more difficult target if only because their relation to the star destroyer would be constantly changing

Agreed, the ST ships will be maneuvering, but the maneuvering may look something like this...
Notice how the Klingon BoP at 0.19 are also missing Dominion ships within spitball distance while going in a relatively straight line (out of a really shallow turn)?

This is also why I mentioned the fire saturation of the ST ship area.
Add the flack capability of SW weapons, and you may actually get hits on the ST ships...

Saturate the area yes, the question is can the SSD hit the three enemy vessels enough times to bring their shields down and blast them to cinders before its own shields down.

Well, we are now venturing in the field of comparing Firepower, which I believe is on a similar level, so yes, if there are enough hits, then the old Excelsiors go down quickly enough...

Those bolts weren't knocking around the rebel blockaid runner or seeming to do mammoth damage until it struck the segment which exploded and I'd be willing to bet dollars to donoughts even an old Ambassador class it tougher than the Tantive.

Please keep in mind the ISD wanted to capture the Tantive IV, not destroy it...
Remember in ST III when the Klingon ship fires at the Grissom in order to capture it, but they use to much firepower, and destroy it instead?
Well, if you want to make sure you don't destroy the ship you want to capture, you hit it often, but using very low powered shots, so while it takes longer to get the ship, you're sure you don't destroy it...

The 1:41 mark as the two fleet merge a good looking place to start.

Yes, but once again, they are not Defiant-type maneuvers, which would be needed to evade everything, or evade area fire saturation...

it neither owned a flotilla of enemy ships

But we are not talking about a flotilla, we are talking about 3 ships...

[sonofccn]

Of course not, but Excelsiors are not Mirandas either.
The Excelsior you linke to is the Lakota, in and of itself an exception, a ship almost as powerful as a Defiant, and refit with all the latest treknology possible.
If you make the fight 2 Lakotas with the Ambassador, than yes, I favor the ST ships as well...

The opening post stated post dominion war with all their upgrades I assumed that meant the Lakota subclass.

We know most of the battles in ST (say 90%) happen a spitball distance, the same kind of distances we see in SW.

I would agree the majority of space battles we observe, for lack of a better term, are short ranged.

I feel it's hypocritical to say ST fights at spitball ranges only to diminish enemy reaction time, and refuse that the same can be said for SW...

Well the differnce is SW doesn't really have a list of long range examples, you have to dig into lower cannon/expanded universe to come up with any.

Now, it's even worse if we assume ST has no ECM, because we know SW does (the first DS's magnetic shielding, the Empire in RotJ was jamming scanners, TCW jamming, etc, etc...), which would then impede ST since it never faced an enemy with ECM.

Which, as a seperate tanget, requires us to make assumptions on if Wars ECM would interfere with Trek sensors and if so to what extent. Afterall Captain Whathisname could simply sit back ten or so thousand kilometers and order quantum torpedoes fired dead center of the fuzzy distortoin on the sensors.

And so, we also get to this gem: when fighting in a tight battle formation, where the enemy cannot evade for fear of colliding with an ally like in most DS9 fleet battles, why the hell shoot at spitball distance?

Why form up tight formations to begin with? At the end of the day most franchises military acumen leaves much to be desired.

The intelligent thing would be to unload everything you've got at the center of the formation, and relish in the havoc and destruction you are causing...
But they don't...
Why not?
We're not told explicitely, but then we know of something which could do this, and which ST knows and uses: Jamming, i.e., ECM...

Or conversly one could argue that the Dominion/Cardie ships could simply have dispersed before any signifigant damage was done or Starfleet wanted to get up close and personal so they could fly about around the enemy ships and increase the enemy's misses compared to exchanging sniper fire. Remember if you can pump death and destruction into the middle of hte enemy formation they can do likewise to you.

And I find it hilarious that a lot of Trekkies are also quite willing to elaborate strategies for ST using one shot weapons, or technology we know ST uses, but then refuse the possibility of ECM warfare in ST when we know they have the capability, and used such a thing many times (the Feds, or their enemies)...

Its an interesting idea but I'm afraid I'm still on the undecided aisle. Frankly as mentioned above I think it opens up more cans of worms than its worth. As to how it relates to the battle in question,since you seem to arguing for netuarlity between the two parties instead of favoring one or the other in terms of ECM, I think its irrevelent. The federation ships are almost certainly going to open up at knife range as they typically do as it isn't likely they are instantly going to know the SSD has limited range and once any of htem do pull back and realize it the SSD could always pull out a small hyperjump and scare the blazes out of the Trek crew.

Agreed, the ST ships will be maneuvering, but the maneuvering may look something like this...
Notice how the Klingon BoP at 0.19 are also missing Dominion ships within spitball distance while going in a relatively straight line (out of a really shallow turn)?

Well that is still more of a challenge than the Tantive presented. Again I'm not claiming the ships won't be hit, just that the SSD will have a lower hit ratio than the ISD had against the Tantive.

Please keep in mind the ISD wanted to capture the Tantive IV, not destroy it...
Remember in ST III when the Klingon ship fires at the Grissom in order to capture it, but they use to much firepower, and destroy it instead?
Well, if you want to make sure you don't destroy the ship you want to capture, you hit it often, but using very low powered shots, so while it takes longer to get the ship, you're sure you don't destroy it...

Possible I admit.

Yes, but once again, they are not Defiant-type maneuvers, which would be needed to evade everything, or evade area fire saturation...

Well obviously you can't expect Defiant level manuvers from an old warhorse.:) Seriously through I'm only expecting them to evade more shots than the Tantive IV did.

But we are not talking about a flotilla, we are talking about 3 ships...

[/quote]But it didn't quickly smash apart three ships or really even one ship that I remember even with a full fleet support. If it was the dreadnought your suggesting capable of overwhelming in very short order the three Trek ships I would think it would have done far more damage than it did.

[Lucky]

You're right, so let me try to explain myself better:
We know most of the battles in ST (say 90%) happen a spitball distance, the same kind of distances we see in SW.
We need to find a reason for this.

I feel it's hypocritical to say ST fights at spitball ranges only to diminish enemy reaction time, and refuse that the same can be said for SW...
While both universes' ships maneuver differently, both their targetting sensors do so as well.
Remember how a lot of Trekkies swear by ST's infaillible targetting sensors?
Well, those excellent sensors (which still miss ships going in straight lines sometimes) are facing maneuverable ships.
In SW, the ships are less maneuverable, yes, but the targetting is also crappy, so even a beached whale, if given time, will be able to evade fire if it's fired upon from a long distance (remember the Mon Calamari ship doing a 180 to evade the DS II's shield?).
So, if ST ships fire a spitball distance only because they want to minimize enemy reaction, then we should also assume the same for SW.

Now, it's even worse if we assume ST has no ECM, because we know SW does (the first DS's magnetic shielding, the Empire in RotJ was jamming scanners, TCW jamming, etc, etc...), which would then impede ST since it never faced an enemy with ECM.
Except we know ST knows about jamming as well, because they also use it many times...

And so, we also get to this gem: when fighting in a tight battle formation, where the enemy cannot evade for fear of colliding with an ally like in most DS9 fleet battles, why the hell shoot at spitball distance?
The intelligent thing would be to unload everything you've got at the center of the formation, and relish in the havoc and destruction you are causing...
But they don't...
Why not?
We're not told explicitely, but then we know of something which could do this, and which ST knows and uses: Jamming, i.e., ECM...

And I find it hilarious that a lot of Trekkies are also quite willing to elaborate strategies for ST using one shot weapons, or technology we know ST uses, but then refuse the possibility of ECM warfare in ST when we know they have the capability, and used such a thing many times (the Feds, or their enemies)...

You do realize that EMC in Star Wars is just a matter of throwing some lit flares out an airlock, and that Star Wars cloaks do not hide gravitational or electromagnetic signatures? As I recall Trek powers don't even consider that sort of thing a cloaking device.

[Praeothmin]

You do realize that EMC in Star Wars is just a matter of throwing some lit flares out an airlock, and that Star Wars cloaks do not hide gravitational or electromagnetic signatures? As I recall Trek powers don't even consider that sort of thing a cloaking device.

What are you talking about?