A Defiant Class Starship vs a Corellian Gunship

[User1469]

I like it better than the Vette. It's a cool little ship.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Since firepower is already settled, with the Corellian Gunship being larger, and since Star Wars ships can take more turbolasers bolts than Star Trek ships can take their respective weapons, and since the Corellian gunships have more of said weapons than a defiant does, this is quite a forgone conclusion.

In the spacebattles thread, I mistakened the low megatons for the Corellian gunship and therefore was undecided on the outcome. Since the Corellian gunship gets the higher firepower (which then gives it far higher shielding; as said earlier Star Wars ships can take more turbolasers than Star Trek ships take photon torpedos), and the Corellian gunship has more weapons on it, this thread is somewhat one sided.

Some may point to the Defiant's supposedly higher maneuverability, but Corellian gunships can take out starfighters, so that's moot.

[Admiral Breetai]

if both sides can spam fire it comes down to who can take more abuse and who can run around the other guy

gimme speed for the other side

[sonofccn]

and since Star Wars ships can take more turbolasers bolts than Star Trek ships can take their respective weapons

dedicated Heavy warships are suggestive of tanking heavy damage but this is not a certainity across all ship classes. The Executor had a glass jaw for instances so do you have any evidence this gunboat can take it as well as dish it out?

since the Corellian gunships have more of said weapons than a defiant does,

Are you sure? the Wookiepedia gives eight double turbolasers and 4 torpedo tubes. According to Memory Alpha, just as good as source as Wookiepedia, the Defiant class has 4 phaser cannons, three phaser arrays, four forward torpedo tubes and two aft ones.

Here is an idea of the Defiant's rate of fire. (@1:00 mark) and another @ 1:47 mark. Subpar accuracy with those phase bolts admittedly but a lot of them and better than Wars level of accuracy.

this is quite a forgone conclusion

I agree. The Defiant wins hands down. Better accuracy, better range, better manuverbility and likely far tougher. The Defiant handled itself fairly well against an old vessel far outside its weight class.

Some may point to the Defiant's supposedly higher maneuverability, but Corellian gunships can take out starfighters, so that's moot.

And some may point out that laser cannons designed to shoot down fighters are not turbolasers nor do they require nearly as much strenght to swatt down Imperial strike craft. Hell a kid with a pellet gun could pose a risk to a TIE :)

[Admiral Breetai]

Garek was pretty much sold on a defiant being able to life wipe a planet

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

To be fair the anti-fighter weapons on a SW ship cannot be very good as we see material claiming some ships have loads of them but if they were accurate then a fighter pilots life would be a very short one in fact fighters would be obsolete.

[Nowhereman10]

Mid Range Megatons for the Corellian Gunship (50)
Low Range Megatons for the Defiant Class. (20)

Hold on here. You say no calcs, but how is it that you arrive at 50 megatons for the DP20 and only 20 for the Defiant? That's a wee bit lop-sided here, and for no good reason.

[Admiral Breetai]

to be fair the little D makes up for the fire power gap by essentially being the Rocky Balboa of starships

I mean those suckers could take a pounding and then dish it out

[Nowhereman10]

Here is an idea of the Defiant's rate of fire. (@1:00 mark) and another @ 1:47 mark. Subpar accuracy with those phase bolts admittedly but a lot of them and better than Wars level of accuracy.

It should be remembered that in context of the first example, from "The Search" the Defiant got caught with it's proverbial pants down and still managed to fight back and deal a bloody nose to the enemy.

In the second example, from "Paradise Lost", the Defiant was fighting with restrictions and attempting to avoid destroying the Lakota.

Garek was pretty much sold on a defiant being able to life wipe a planet

Given the size of the explosions seen in "For the Uniform" from just two quantum torpedoes, Garek's line of "We have enough firepower on this ship to turn that planet into a smoking cinder" seems pretty dead on accurate to me.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

dedicated Heavy warships are suggestive of tanking heavy damage but this is not a certainity across all ship classes. The Executor had a glass jaw for instances so do you have any evidence this gunboat can take it as well as dish it out?

Look at the Battle of Coruscant and the Battle of Endor. We see ships lining up and firing at each other, in the latter for about half an hour, and yet they're still mostly there. However, in Star Trek battles, things are more fast paced. A single photon torpedo volley can take out a ship; whether this is due to strong torpedos or weak shields is not relevant to this debate, since firepower is settled in the OP.

Basically:

Corellian vessel can take 10X mid megaton shots
The Defiant can take X low megaton shots

This is supported by the fact that Star Wars ships more closely resemble navy ships than Star Trek ships do in both design and function.

Are you sure? the Wookiepedia gives eight double turbolasers and 4 torpedo tubes. According to Memory Alpha, just as good as source as Wookiepedia, the Defiant class has 4 phaser cannons, three phaser arrays, four forward torpedo tubes and two aft ones.

Here is an idea of the Defiant's rate of fire. (@1:00 mark) and another @ 1:47 mark. Subpar accuracy with those phase bolts admittedly but a lot of them and better than Wars level of accuracy.

More than that. 18 total weapons systems. The Defiant has 13.
I agree. The Defiant wins hands down. [/quote]

Wrong. Via the OP, the Corellian gunship gets probably 10X the firepower per shot. It has more of these shots. These shots have less ammo restrictions; the heavy weapons of the Defiant, the photon torpedos, will eventually run out, but turbolasers don't seem to do so. Star Wars ships can take more hits of their respective weapons. Therefore, the Corellian gunship will put out more firepower at a higher rate while taking more of it. Ever heard of square law of attrition?

Better accuracy,

Corellian gunships can take out starfighters. In the dominion war, dominion ships were missing slow moving fighters at quite literally point blank range.

better range,

That depends on the showings you use. However, both sides would in theory have basically unlimited range for their respective missile weapons. Although the defiant has more of them, by OP fiat the Corellian gunship's is more powerful and has stronger weapons with higher yields, which balances the total yield potential of the missile loads in the favor of the Corellian gunship. For LoS weapons such as turbolasers and phasers, both would have to get within a relatively close distance in space terms. The defiant has not shown phaser ranges of more than a few kms, while Star Wars turbolasers have effective ranges in the thousands of kms.

better manuverbility

This might be true, but the Corellian gunship has taken out even faster and more maneuverable, not to mention smaller, starfighters in vast quantities.

and likely far tougher

By OP fiat and the space battle styles of the opposing factions, this is blatantly false.

Let's say that, by "mid" megatons, that's 500 megatons, and by low, it's 100.

If they could tank equal shots, then the Corellian gunship has a 5 to one toughness bonus.

However, in Star Wars ships can tank more shots; the Battle of Endor would have been over in a matter of minutes if it were Star Trek. Also, Star Wars unshielded hulls can tank more than Star Trek unshielded hulls can.

. The Defiant handled itself fairly well against an old vessel far outside its weight class.
And some may point out that laser cannons designed to shoot down fighters are not turbolasers nor do they require nearly as much strenght to swatt down Imperial strike craft. Hell a kid with a pellet gun could pose a risk to a TIE :)

You're exaggerating. :)

[Admiral Breetai]

Look at the Battle of Coruscant and the Battle of Endor. We see ships lining up and firing at each other, in the latter for about half an hour, and yet they're still mostly there. However, in Star Trek battles, things are more fast paced. A single photon torpedo volley can take out a ship; whether this is due to strong torpedos or weak shields is not relevant to this debate, since firepower is settled in the OP

because photon torpedoes are more powerful then friggen TL's and that's not always the case at all..the Defiant ate numerous plasma torps before being blasted apart after it got energy drained for example

This is supported by the fact that Star Wars ships more closely resemble navy ships than Star Trek ships do in both design and function.

completely irrelevant

Wrong. Via the OP, the Corellian gunship gets probably 10X the firepower per shot. It has more of these shots. These shots have less ammo restrictions; the heavy weapons of the Defiant, the photon torpedos, will eventually run out, but turbolasers don't seem to do so. Star Wars ships can take more hits of their respective weapons. Therefore, the Corellian gunship will put out more firepower at a higher rate while taking more of it. Ever heard of square law of attrition?

and unless the OP downgraded the tanking power of the little D and is ordering its damage soak feats to be dismissed it can run circles around the enemy..and take more abuse

[

Corellian gunships can take out starfighters. In the dominion war, dominion ships were missing slow moving fighters at quite literally point blank range.

right because Sw fighters are faster then damn fed ships..yes totally..lol

]This might be true, but the Corellian gunship has taken out even faster and more maneuverable, not to mention smaller, starfighters in vast quantities.

no it hasn't

However, in Star Wars ships can tank more shots; the Battle of Endor would have been over in a matter of minutes if it were Star Trek. Also, Star Wars unshielded hulls can tank more than Star Trek unshielded hulls can.

completely wrong here

You're exaggerating. :)

no he's not they'd of taken out the lakota and it was an excelsior on steroids..an already tough and formidable vessel with upgraded weaponry and shields

[sonofccn]

Look at the Battle of Coruscant and the Battle of Endor. We see ships lining up and firing at each other, in the latter for about half an hour, and yet they're still mostly there

Two things. 1. Where is the time coming from the battle of Endor. 2. Those would appear to be the heavy warships I spoke of earlier. ISD and VSD and the numbers who can slug with them toe to toe.

A single photon torpedo volley can take out a ship; whether this is due to strong torpedos or weak shields is not relevant to this debate, since firepower is settled in the OP.

Which is the only thing which gives Wars a slight chance to hold its own. If Fed ships were concistently shown as being able to tank respective rival fire, not that their are not some counter examples such as the Defiant or Enterprise-E shown to take a beating, the fight between the two universes would be a walk over in Trek's favor.

Basically:

Corellian vessel can take 10X mid megaton shots
The Defiant can take X low megaton shots

Here's the thing. Basically I'm asking you to provide evidence for your assertion. The Wookiepedia artical mentions nothing about this thing being remarkably strong, just that it packs decent firepower for its size. Now I presume this gunship exists in some EU novel, surely you can find evidence to back up your assertion.

This is supported by the fact that Star Wars ships more closely resemble navy ships than Star Trek ships do in both design and function.

Except we're in space not in the water so what resemble either one may or may not have is besides the point of who would win.

More than that. 18 total weapons systems. The Defiant has 13.

6 of which are laser cannons which won't scratch the Defiant's paint. Thats like holding up a battleship's anti-air fifty caliber next to its 16 inch guns.

Wrong. Via the OP, the Corellian gunship gets probably 10X the firepower per shot.

Assuming each double turret ditches out 50 megs and each concussion missile is 50 megs we get 600 for single all out salvo. For the Defiant assuming each weapon is 20 we about 220. Roughly 3x nowhere near ten.

It has more of these shots. These shots have less ammo restrictions; the heavy weapons of the Defiant, the photon torpedos, will eventually run out, but turbolasers don't seem to do so.

Actually do you have any evidence to support this assertion? Considering ROTS (@ 5:00) showed us physical canisters being fed into cannons it does ask the question of what a smaller craft's endurance for combat is. After all it can't hold as many shells as say a VSD could.

Therefore, the Corellian gunship will put out more firepower at a higher rate while taking more of it.

Actually if you have an example of its rate of fire that would be swell because at the moment with my example versus no example the Defiant shoots faster and not to repeat myself but you still need to provide actual evidence for your statment that a Corellian gunship can actually take a great level of damage.

Corellian gunships can take out starfighters. In the dominion war, dominion ships were missing slow moving fighters at quite literally point blank range.

Do you have a clip of Dominon ships missing Federation fighters? Because the few times I remember them they were attacking Cardasion ships and weren't exactly doing it bloodlessly. Also, just for kicks, an example of how well this gunships shoots down fighters would be apreciated.

However, both sides would in theory have basically unlimited range for their respective missile weapons.

In theory you can shoot across the galaxy if you have the time and the math. Obviously that has no merit for what we are talking about.

For LoS weapons such as turbolasers and phasers, both would have to get within a relatively close distance in space terms. The defiant has not shown phaser ranges of more than a few kms, while Star Wars turbolasers have effective ranges in the thousands of kms.

Lets start from the top. This (@2:15)is Imperial/Republic accuracy. Compare that to my Defiant clip against the refurbished captiol ship. Half of those bolts struck their target compared to like three for the ISD. At a thousand meters. So if you have any evidence supporting range in the thousands of Kms please provide them.

As to the Defiant do I really need to pull up the Changling (90,000) the wounded (200,000)? Or how about Equinox?

[Equinox - Bridge]

GILMORE: We're receiving a subspace transmission.
RANSOM: From who?
GILMORE: I can't tell.
RANSOM: I don't see a ship out there. Open a channel.
E-EMH: Doctor to Equinox. Respond.
RANSOM: We can hear you.
E-EMH: Voyager's found you. They've entered orbit. They polarised their hull to mask their approach. I believe they've planned an ambush on the away team. Janeway's been tracking the Equinox for a couple
RANSOM: Get him back.
GILMORE: I can't.
RANSOM: Ransom to away team. Noah, prepare to beam back to the ship.
GILMORE: They're not down there.
RANSOM: All hands to battle stations!

[Bridge]

PARIS: Thirty thousand kilometres and closing.
JANEWAY: Target their power core.

[Equinox Bridge]

GILMORE: Direct hit. Minor damage.
RANSOM: Return fire.

30 thousand KMs and targeting a specific system rather than filling the volume of space with plasma and hoping for a hit.

This might be true, but the Corellian gunship has taken out even faster and more maneuverable, not to mention smaller, starfighters in vast quantities.

yes fighers who carry kiloton rockets and fire low gigajoule pulses which can fairly effecitvly destroy each other. We'll ignore the TIE who couldn't even destroy R2-D2 for the moment. No threat to the Defiant.

By OP fiat and the space battle styles of the opposing factions, this is blatantly false.

Let me put this in simple terms. The Defiant a "destroyer" squared off with an old but retrofitted "battleship" and came out on top. That is some serious in universe endurance. In comparison you have submitted nothing for your gunship. Hell it could be like the PT gunboats from WWII which were never meant to take returning fire relying on speed and small size to survive.

If they could tank equal shots, then the Corellian gunship has a 5 to one toughness bonus.

And if one is a glass cannon and the other a helluva tough starship the Defiant has the toughness bonus. Now quite stalling and provide supporting evidence for each of your many, many,many claims.

PS. Forgot the time stamp for ROTS

[2046]

Mid Range Megatons for the Corellian Gunship (50)
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/DP20_frigate
Low Range Megatons for the Defiant Class. (20)
Standard Defiant only. No cloak.
Generic Captains for each. No fleeing to warp or hyperspace, no transporters.

Battle takes place in orbit around a small planet.

Who wins?

Btw no argueing firepower calcs.

Since the gunship's been inflated and the Defiant deflated with additional bits of tech tied behind her back, then I have to point to the fact that you have not adjusted their defense technology accordingly. Ergo, even the Gimp Defiant will still have the advantage, starting with weapon range.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Even accepting the rather retarded firepower levels it is still a stomp for the defiant.

The gun ships 50 megatons is spread out between multiple guns around the hull into 8 x Double turbolaser cannons and 6 x Quad laser cannons. So if we devide it up equally it is a average of 3.5 MT per weapon with 15% to 50% able to be brought to bear on the Defiant at any one time going by the image on whooptedopedia (Is it just me who noticed that the design of the gunship and how its weapons are spread out means its max available firepower from all its weapons cannot ever be applied?).



And as we know most of the Defiants firepower is not spread out it is virtually all directed forwards from its pulse phasers and torp launchers, it has some beam weaponry and aft torp launchers and while they are powerful it is having shit to shoot in front of it that the defiant loves and rapes.

So weapons range, armour, manouverability and speed all go to the defiant and even the gimped firepower levels do not help much as the gunship has it spread out through all its weapons that cannot all hit the defiant at the same time while the defiant does not really have that problem.

[Picard]

And Defiant can fire faster than gunship. I made estimates on SpaceBattles thread.