Ultritium

[Lucky]

I didn't really have it in mind.

There may be some difference between industrial-grade and military-grade ultritium - but it shouldn't be more than an order of magnitude. We still have to work hard to maximize the total mass of ultritium in "A Time to Stand" and minimize it in "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night," since the first explosion is supposed to produce destructive effects in a sphere 40,000 times the radius as the second explosion (1.6 billion times the surface area, which is the relevant effect for determining intensity), and with respect to harder targets (ships vs. people).

Why should we assume the difference is only an order of magnitude? We already know they use the stuff in place of anti-matter, right?

[Mr. Oragahn]

And why assume that they did it for the yield, when it's most logically the least of the likely options?
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 692#p34692

[Mike DiCenso]

Why wouldn't it be? A tiny bit of the explosive that fit in a little ear ring did what a kilo of most modern explosives do yeild-wise.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

Why wouldn't it be? A tiny bit of the explosive that fit in a little ear ring did what a kilo of most modern explosives do yeild-wise.
-Mike

Not sure how that validates the idea that ultritium could turn out to be as dangerous as needed for anyone who thinks that it is the ultritium-filled jars that threatened the Jemmie bug.
Even if you get several megajoules out of a very few grams instead of one kilogram (still under a factor of 1000), you're still falling extremely short of the kind of yields you need for the theory that the asteroid was mainly blasted by the ultritium jars. And the 800 km range wouldn't even be worth considering there.
Plus it completely fails to acknowledge visual evidence that the asteroid didn't blow up the moment the jars exploded.
Same with several gigajoules per gram. It's still too low. You want something as potent as antimatter, which it won't be.

Still, may you give me more information about that ear ring incident? What were the effects?

[Mike DiCenso]

The explosive earring is from DS9's "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night". If you read JMS' post earlier in this thread, you'll recall that was a 20 meter blast radius for the ultritium resin inside it. This is actually far nastier than I'd conservatively calculated it, since it would be much more powerful than a mere kg of chemical explosive. It would closer to to a couple hundred kg of real-life modern explosives. We're talking 1-2 GJ for a tiny amount of resin that fits in an earring less than a total cubic centimeter in volume.

Now, take this back to the "A Time to Stand" example. Suppose, just suppose that 90 isotons in this case is not a measure of yeild, but a measure of the mass of the explosives. We know that the prefix "iso" in Trek is used interchangably with both mass and yeild, so why not in this case have as mass? It makes more sense as 1-2 GJ per a gram would give some pretty scary yeilds at that scale. Something at least on the order of 21.5 megatons, if we assume one gram = 1 GJ. But that may be highly conservative since it's never actually stated that the resin made up the whole earring (remember there has to be a detonator and transmitter for the earring to work as a bomb, too). It could easily be only a milligram. It which case, up the yeild by at least ten orders of magnitude, and soon we have up to 21.5 gigatons, which fits better with what we see in the episode as far as yeilds. The multiple explosions is merely the large-scale chain-reaction of the initial detonation of all those barrels going off.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

The explosive earring is from DS9's "Wrongs Darker than Death or Night". If you read JMS' post earlier in this thread, you'll recall that was a 20 meter blast radius for the ultritium resin inside it. This is actually far nastier than I'd conservatively calculated it, since it would be much more powerful than a mere kg of chemical explosive. It would closer to to a couple hundred kg of real-life modern explosives. We're talking 1-2 GJ for a tiny amount of resin that fits in an earring less than a total cubic centimeter in volume.

Still not enough. As I said, you have to look for something as good as antimatter to begin approaching a substance that would threaten a warship over a large radius. Needless to say that to threaten a Jem'Hadar ship over 700~800 km would take an absurd initial level of energy, considering the ship's shields can already tank terajoules if not more.

Now, take this back to the "A Time to Stand" example. Suppose, just suppose that 90 isotons in this case is not a measure of yeild, but a measure of the mass of the explosives. We know that the prefix "iso" in Trek is used interchangably with both mass and yeild, so why not in this case have as mass? It makes more sense as 1-2 GJ per a gram would give some pretty scary yeilds at that scale. Something at least on the order of 21.5 megatons, if we assume one gram = 1 GJ. But that may be highly conservative since it's never actually stated that the resin made up the whole earring (remember there has to be a detonator and transmitter for the earring to work as a bomb, too). It could easily be only a milligram. It which case, up the yeild by at least ten orders of magnitude, and soon we have up to 21.5 gigatons, which fits better with what we see in the episode as far as yeilds. The multiple explosions is merely the large-scale chain-reaction of the initial detonation of all those barrels going off.
-Mike

Not only I can't be comfortable enough with the isoton unit considering how it's so non descriptive and entirely made up, inconsistent, but all of this still fails on the simple fact that the initial explosion was nowhere close to even megatons : yes, 21.5 GT would actually fit even less with what we see.
Regarding the final explosion, can we even be sure that the asteroid was several hundred kilometers behind them?
It's not like Dominion shield generators are incapable of completely blasting the asteroid they're built in, as we saw during the attack on that other planet, planet blah blah.

[Lucky]

And why assume that they did it for the yield, when it's most logically the least of the likely options?
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 692#p34692

It certainly looks like the minimum safe distance was the distance at which the ship would not be destroyed by the blast.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 39&page=23

This is like the Voyager episode "Drive"

PARIS: Here? We'll never survive the blast. Neither will anyone else within a million kilometres.


[Mess hall]

(Assan zips through the finish line)
JANEWAY: Damn.
O'ZAAL: I'm sorry your team didn't win, Captain.
JANEWAY: Janeway to the Bridge. Report.
TUVOK: That was a shock wave from an antimatter explosion approximately one point two million kilometres from here.
JANEWAY: Excuse me.

The used some sort of Nebula to contain the blast, but everything with in 1,000,000 kilometers destroyed from the Delta Flyer's warp core a lot of energy being generated.

Then there's the ounce of antimatter to blow off half of a planet's atmosphere from "Obsession".

Then there is the shuttle load of antimatter to blow up the space-ameba in "Immunity Syndrome".

[Mr. Oragahn]

And why assume that they did it for the yield, when it's most logically the least of the likely options?
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... 692#p34692

It certainly looks like the minimum safe distance was the distance at which the ship would not be destroyed by the blast.
http://ds9.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 39&page=23

As expected, we even see that the ship got seriously damaged without even getting anything like 100 km away from the asteroid.

This is like the Voyager episode "Drive"
...
Then there is the shuttle load of antimatter to blow up the space-ameba in "Immunity Syndrome".

There's plenty of stupid in Trek, but one shouldn't use another episode, especially when it involves another element (here, another explosive material) to support a point.
One could also point at the much more realistic numerous explosions of ships and their loads of antimatter, which generally tend to vaporize a good chunk of it and send large debris into the void.

Unfortunately, Trek isn't Doctor Who, which can, most of the time, allow itself to crap on science.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

Then there is the shuttle load of antimatter to blow up the space-ameba in "Immunity Syndrome".

It was a probe they used as a delivery device.


Spock was in the shuttle.

[Lucky]

As expected, we even see that the ship got seriously damaged without even getting anything like 100 km away from the asteroid.

What makes you think they didn't get even 100 km from the explosion?

There's plenty of stupid in Trek, but one shouldn't use another episode, especially when it involves another element (here, another explosive material) to support a point.
One could also point at the much more realistic numerous explosions of ships and their loads of antimatter, which generally tend to vaporize a good chunk of it and send large debris into the void.

What explosive are you talking about?

[Mr. Oragahn]

As expected, we even see that the ship got seriously damaged without even getting anything like 100 km away from the asteroid.

What makes you think they didn't get even 100 km from the explosion?

The fact that the base wasn't big and that we see the ship not being very far from the rock when it goes up.

There's plenty of stupid in Trek, but one shouldn't use another episode, especially when it involves another element (here, another explosive material) to support a point.
One could also point at the much more realistic numerous explosions of ships and their loads of antimatter, which generally tend to vaporize a good chunk of it and send large debris into the void.

What explosive are you talking about?

That substance someone else here mentions.

[Lucky]

The fact that the base wasn't big and that we see the ship not being very far from the rock when it goes up.

How do you define big? The base was at least able to internally house multiple Jem'Hadar "fighters". It had to be kilometers long at least.

The characters believed they needed to be 800 to 900 kilometers from the blast because they are using X amount of explosive, but you claim the blast was nowhere near what they expected, and not a single character is seemingly aware of this fact. On top of that, the characters are in a ship that can easily reach high percentages of the speed of light quickly, and without seemingly suffering from time dilation problems. You don't see a problem with your analysis?

That substance someone else here mentions.

You mean Veridium? I'm not aware of any source that says it is explosive.

Drive
PARIS: Fuel converter rigged. Eject. What does he mean by rigged? 

TORRES: The converter's leaking veridium isotopes. 

PARIS: Why didn't the computer warn us?

TORRES: The online sensors have been tampered with. 

PARIS: Can you contain the leak? 

TORRES: Too late. The veridium is already reacting with the warp plasma. 

PARIS: That'll cause a warp core breach.

Riddles
JANEWAY: Commander Chakotay says you've found something. 

NAROQ: That, Captain, is an understatement. Listen. 

JANEWAY: What is it? 

NAROQ: The sound of history being made. 

JANEWAY: Less poetry, Mister Naroq, more facts. 

NAROQ: The sound you're hearing indicates the presence of veridium isotopes. 

SEVEN: Residual particles from the Ba'Neth's cloaking field. 

JANEWAY: You've detected these isotopes before? 
NAROQ: Yes, but only after they've decayed. You see, veridium has a very brief half-life, less than seventy hours. The previous sites I've studied have been months, sometimes years old. 

JANEWAY: But these isotopes are still active.

Tsunkatse
SEVEN: In that case, perhaps you'd care to join us. 

EMH: To study the micro-nebula? 

SEVEN: You can assist us with our analysis of veridium oxide particulates. 

EMH: On second thought, you and Tuvok have a good time.


Star Trek VI
(McCoy falls exhausted to the ground)

McCOY: Leave me! I'm finished.

KIRK: No! ...Bones, I'm wearing a viridium patch on my back. Spock slapped it there just before we went on Gorkon's ship.

McCOY: Why, that cunning little Vulcan.

MARTIA: Come on! We're in the clear.

KIRK: Now that we're out of the shield they'll be able to locate us two sectors away.

McCOY: If they're even looking for us.

The point is that anti-matter reactions somehow seemingly have obscene yields compared to what they seemingly should be, and there is a lot of weird stuff in Star Trek that does things it likely should not like Metreon gas. Star Trek has always had a similar feel to classic Doctor Who when it's at it's best.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The fact that the base wasn't big and that we see the ship not being very far from the rock when it goes up.

How do you define big? The base was at least able to internally house multiple Jem'Hadar "fighters". It had to be kilometers long at least.

And yet was still taking a considerable amount of the screen when it blew up. I pretty much doubt the asteroid itself was more than 10 kilometers wide, which is already a stretch.
The building on its surface had raws of windows which already give a good idea of how not so tall it was.
You can also see how small it is when a Jem'hadar ship flies under the shield. That shield is an ovoid that is erected rather close to the asteroid.

The characters believed they needed to be 800 to 900 kilometers from the blast because they are using X amount of explosive, but you claim the blast was nowhere near what they expected, and not a single character is seemingly aware of this fact.

If I remember correctly, the plan did go on as smoothly as initially planned.
I rationalized the difference between what was expected and what happened with the idea that it was a worst case scenario, and that we have to understand that Sisko considered to strong possibility of a chain reaction going on.

On top of that, the characters are in a ship that can easily reach high percentages of the speed of light quickly, and without seemingly suffering from time dilation problems. You don't see a problem with your analysis?

It's a problem if they had the possibility to go FTL or at least use warp at STL to quickly reach high percentages of c, but then I'm not the one who wrote that episode.
Perhaps activating such systems is considered unsafe when flying close to explosive things.

That substance someone else here mentions.

You mean Veridium? I'm not aware of any source that says it is explosive.

[...]

The point is that anti-matter reactions somehow seemingly have obscene yields compared to what they seemingly should be, and there is a lot of weird stuff in Star Trek that does things it likely should not like Metreon gas. Star Trek has always had a similar feel to classic Doctor Who when it's at it's best.

Antimatter is, most of the time, shown to have normal explosion yields. Be it from torps or capital ships having their cores blow up.
Well, at least as far as I've read on Internet.

[Lucky]

And yet was still taking a considerable amount of the screen when it blew up. I pretty much doubt the asteroid itself was more than 10 kilometers wide, which is already a stretch.
The building on its surface had raws of windows which already give a good idea of how not so tall it was.
You can also see how small it is when a Jem'hadar ship flies under the shield. That shield is an ovoid that is erected rather close to the asteroid.

What evidence is there the scene was to scale. I can easily find scenes where things are farther then they appear to be in DS9. It's a notable problem DS9 had.

What evidence is there that those windows are the size you think they are, or that they are even windows?

If I remember correctly, the plan did go on as smoothly as initially planned.
I rationalized the difference between what was expected and what happened with the idea that it was a worst case scenario, and that we have to understand that Sisko considered to strong possibility of a chain reaction going on.

The problem is the characters do nothing to support this theory. They never do or say anything to show that the explosion was anything other then the insanely large boom they planned on.

It's a problem if they had the possibility to go FTL or at least use warp at STL to quickly reach high percentages of c, but then I'm not the one who wrote that episode.
Perhaps activating such systems is considered unsafe when flying close to explosive things.

The problem is that reaching relativistic speeds is repeatedly shown to be easy for the Federation.

The Phoenix(first contact) was able to easily reach 20,000 km/s before going to warp.

People joke about how they're not suppose to go 70% the speed of light in Titan's atmosphere like they were talking worrying about getting a speeding ticket(Chain of Command).

It seems like Deep Space nine with only the six thrusters might have been able to get far enough from the blast with ease(Emissary)

The scene as shown doesn't make sense.

Antimatter is, most of the time, shown to have normal explosion yields. Be it from torps or capital ships having their cores blow up.
Well, at least as far as I've read on Internet.

Warpcores are stated to commonly implode, and are just strange to the point that they may not actually be matt/anti-matter reactors. Some quotes point to the Dilithium actually being the power source somehow. After researching the topic, I'm doubting that anything that would come out of a warpcore would be normal matter/anti-matter.

[Praeothmin]

Some quotes point to the Dilithium actually being the power source somehow.

I've always hed the belief that the Dilithium crystals weren't just power regulators, but some types of power amplifiers as well...