Notes on Star Trek space combat

[2046]

Here, I decreased the shield height by 20% and here is the result, if I were to decrease the overall size by 20% many more problem areas would crop up. Those are the aft and ventral sides of the nacelle pylons.

I strongly approve of your posts in this thread, but would caution about relying too much on potentially inaccurate models when arguing fine points with models. I've seen many a gorgeous model which sucked for analysis purposes because a dimension or curve or thickness or what-have-you was way off when you got down to the nitty-gritty.

[Mike DiCenso]

The CGI models look close enough for government work. But the shield bubble issue with regards to the graphic 3-D software 359 is using has some clear limitations when constructing the bubble. And I agree wholeheartedly with Robert; it's very refreshing having someone debate and bring real evidence to the table or try and use real experimentation to actually figure out what is going on.

As for the shield in "The Hunted", it could be just the forward most part of the shield is flaring, but in the absence of other data and the variable nature of shields, it's tough to say. The camera in the scene is just off to the E-D's starboard side, but not by much and it is not positioned too high to throw off the perspective with regards to the shield height.

Also, while Sovereign-class E-E displays all possible shield variations across three movies; full large-scale bubble shield in ST:FC; semi-conformal in ST:INS; and hull-hugging conformal in ST:NEM. ButI don't think up to DS9's third season we see a Galaxy or other starship with conformal shields.

Also I would ask 359 if he could try and plot the JH attack ship's flight path as that hard bank it does under the stardrive keel suggests it would have possibly missed a minimum aspect shield.
-Mike

[359]

2046, I appreciate the comment, and the advice. I have come across several models like that in the past. And I will bear that in mind when/if I try this again. Looking over the Galaxy class model I noticed the pylons are at a slightly sharper angle than they should be, so there is one problem which leads to more. But for the purposes of this analysis it is close enough to work with a reasonable margin of error.


As for "The Hunted" my questioning was based on how the visible shields did not seem to entirely encompass the saucer's sides, but a few frames after your image we see that they do. I have spent a good deal of time getting the shields to be closer to the hull in the past (I like it better than both conforming shields and bulky shields), and with a perfect ellipsoid what you saw is the best I have come up with. I have done better with an imperfect ellipsoid. Anyway the position of the Jem'Hadar ship, between the starboard nacelle and saucer, places it within anything but conforming shields.


Mike DiCenso, using the same method I can plot various points in the clip, and then render any time from any angle, video as well. But I do not have access to a frame-by-frame of the event, only screen caps from hitting start and stop quickly on the YouTube clip. So I will need to let Blender interpolate the motion a bit, and the timing likely will not be in sync with the episode. But it can be done. What would you like to see from it?

[Picard]

I don't think the all-caps are necessary, it could be easily misunderstood as 'The ramming ship will detonate the warp core and torpedoes of the ship which is hit.' which may be true as well.

May problem was:

1) Jason's utter inability to learn english. Seriously, it would be FAR better if he was simply to type in his native language and use Google Translate. And if English IS his first language, then... well, then it's simply tragic. As it is, it is hard enough to even understand what he is talking about, and when you realize you just unnerved yourself translating senseless gibberish into more of sensless gibberish...

2) That is not what he said. He said, to translate:

"On minor problem it took two Jem Harder bug ships destroy Klingon big warships when drive death. So that hardly suggestion Klingon hard warp-core problem more bug ship tough little ships."

=

"There is one minor problem: it took two Jem'Hadar bug ships to destroy Klingon big warships with kamikaze attacks. Thus it is hardly implication of Klingons having problems with their warp cores, but more of implication of Jem'Hadar ships being tough little bastards."

In short, he thought that I was saying that ramming will somehow detonate warp core of Klingon ship but not of battlebug ramming it and that Klingons have problems with their warp cores, whereas I have not specified which warp core will detonate at all, as it is logical that battlebug's warp core will detonate first, and Klingon ship's warp core only when shields are penetrated; and how he gets "Klingon warp cores have flaws" from what I wrote is completely beyond my understanding.

[359]

I finished the scene and can add a tracer for the fighter's movements. There is a little 'bump' near the end, I suspect the interpolation is to blame. Unfortunately I have no method of showing the rendered video sequence. But I can give the flight path (bright green).

[Picard]

Sovereign class torpedo launchers:
- quantum torpedo launcher - three-torpedo burst (ST:FC, ST:NEM)
- double photon torpedo launcher below deflector dish - two two-torpedo bursts or 1 torpedo / launcher / second (ST:NEM)
- twin torpedo launcher at bottom aft of the secondary hull (single-shot)
- twin torpedo launcher above main shuttlebay (single-shot)

Akira class torpedo launchers
- photon torpedo launcher above and in front of deflector dish (4-torpedo burst)
- photon torpedo launcher on front of weapons pod (3-torpedo burst)
- can be presumed to have torpedo launcher on aft of the weapons pod, but that was, to my knowledge, never seen

[Praeothmin]

The Akira-Class model does suggest over 15 launchers all over the ship.
The pod itself shows 4 top forward, what looks like 3 under forward, and 6 aft, three per side.
Plus the one under the suacer, and 2 per side on the dorsal side of the saucer...
The Akira was designed as a gunboat, even though it was never clearly demoinstrated as such...

[Picard]

I don't know how accurate this models are, but...



http://devils-inc.freehostingcloud.com/ ... Akira1.jpg

I've counted 7 visible torpedo launchers facing forward, and possibly one at each side of the saucer. But then these launchers must be single-shot.

It also seems to have 6 torpedo launchers facing back. But what with launcher I identified above deflector dish then? Because that one seemingly isn't on the model, and would bring number of launchers to 16.

[Praeothmin]

Look at your image carefully, specifically the saucer:
-On the Dorsal section, left and right, you will notice 2 apparent ports at the saucer's edge per side, not one...
-The Weapon pod shows what I describe, 3 launchers aft left, 3 launchers aft right, and 7 facing forward (4 top, 3 bottom), plus the one you identified below the saucer...

So that adds up to 2 + 2 + 3 + 3 + 4 + 3, for a total of :
[Minmax voice] 36 598 247 launchers [/Minmax voice]
[Forgath voice] That's 17, you nitwit! [/Forgath voice]

:)

[Picard]

Looking at screenshots of Enterprise E, I have found following tubes:

FRONT
- 4 tubes in "turret", used to launch quantum torpedoes
- 2 tubes just below deflector dish
- 2 tubes below these two, bit further aft on secondary hull

AFT
- 2 tubes on lower aft part of engineering section
- 3 tubes aft of bridge
- 3 tubes on far aft of secondary hull

(aft tubes I couldn't find directly on screenshots, so I extrapolated from fighting scenes)

In total, 16 tubes.

[Picard]

And that launcher I found would be 4 tubes, but seeing how they don't exist on physical model, it's most likely VFX error.

[Picard]

Sovereign class torpedo tubes:
forward
saucer
4 in turret
engineering hull
2 below deflector dish
2 below these
aft
saucer
2 above shuttlebay (each can fire three-torpedo burst) or 3 with fast reload time
engineering hull
3 on the far aft of engineering hull
2 on the lower aft part of the engineering hull

Akira class torpedo tubes
forward
3 on forward part of the saucer
7 on weapons pod
aft
6 on the weapons pod
sides
2 at each side of saucer

[User8910]

Their plan is to prove they can beat the Odyssey in the battle, and then destroy her behavior in the extreme to prove their commitment.

[Mith]

I don't think the all-caps are necessary, it could be easily misunderstood as 'The ramming ship will detonate the warp core and torpedoes of the ship which is hit.' which may be true as well.

May problem was:

1) Jason's utter inability to learn english. Seriously, it would be FAR better if he was simply to type in his native language and use Google Translate. And if English IS his first language, then... well, then it's simply tragic. As it is, it is hard enough to even understand what he is talking about, and when you realize you just unnerved yourself translating senseless gibberish into more of sensless gibberish...

Nay my friend, that wouldn't be tragic.

It'd be heresy.

[Mr. Oragahn]

I don't think the all-caps are necessary, it could be easily misunderstood as 'The ramming ship will detonate the warp core and torpedoes of the ship which is hit.' which may be true as well.

May problem was:

1) Jason's utter inability to learn english. Seriously, it would be FAR better if he was simply to type in his native language and use Google Translate. And if English IS his first language, then... well, then it's simply tragic. As it is, it is hard enough to even understand what he is talking about, and when you realize you just unnerved yourself translating senseless gibberish into more of sensless gibberish...

I don't think calling his opinion gibberish just because you disagree you know. At least he doesn't suggest gigaton level phasers as the average.

2) That is not what he said. He said, to translate:

"On minor problem it took two Jem Harder bug ships destroy Klingon big warships when drive death. So that hardly suggestion Klingon hard warp-core problem more bug ship tough little ships."

=

"There is one minor problem: it took two Jem'Hadar bug ships to destroy Klingon big warships with kamikaze attacks. Thus it is hardly implication of Klingons having problems with their warp cores, but more of implication of Jem'Hadar ships being tough little bastards."

In short, he thought that I was saying that ramming will somehow detonate warp core of Klingon ship but not of battlebug ramming it and that Klingons have problems with their warp cores, whereas I have not specified which warp core will detonate at all, as it is logical that battlebug's warp core will detonate first, and Klingon ship's warp core only when shields are penetrated; and how he gets "Klingon warp cores have flaws" from what I wrote is completely beyond my understanding.

That, I remember suggesting the bugs had a capacity to act like hot knives through butter. I proposed evidence in that episode with a crashed bug that wedged itself into a small cliff. There was just no sign of blast, just the stone, the cliff, and a ship sticking out, upside down, like if half of it had phased into the rock.