L.A.S.E.R. VS Federation Vessels

[Lucky]

You know what is a no-limits fallacy?

You do realize you just claimed gravity is a no limits fallacy? A Laser will never be able to ignore gravity no matter how powerful the laser it will always be equally subject to gravity.

Everything just kind of goes around the ship

Or a context? Of course, it is entirely probable (actually, the only possible conclusion) that Federation ships can deflect lasers that are, going by power output, far more powerful than phasers or disruptors that would penetrate the shields, but it does not mean that they can deflect any laser weapons. Any laser weapons that could be practically put on a ship of a given size, maybe, and that is what Picard's comment should be taken to mean. Any laser weapons, period, no.

Given the navigational deflector has to move everything from space dust to photons out of the way of the ship while it is at warp, Jean Luc's statement should be taken literally.

Besides, you should not ignore the examples of gravity manipulation in Star Trek
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Star Trek powers make gravity dance for them.

Then you have the invisible ships in Tomorrow is Yesterday, First Contact, and Future's End.

Federation shields have a frequency, which basically mean that they are not always on; they are "pulsated", rapidly turned on and off, which is also what allows phasers (which are similarly pulsated) through. Shields can be configured to completely stop the incoming fire (which is what Borg do with their frequency adaptation; allow early casualties for far fewer casualties later on), and weapons can be configured to pass through the shields by adjusting pulsation. This also means that light will not be normally stopped or affected (maybe we should be getting a fainter image of the ship but that's it). But if I do remember it correctly, shields can be configured so as to distort ship's visual signature.

Frequency literally mean something happens in a rhythmic fashion Picard.

What the frequency is is stated in Best of Both Worlds.
TNG: Best of Both Worlds
SHELBY: Mister La Forge has a plan to modulate shield nutation. Hopefully, that'll hold them off for awhile.

[Lucky]

Just tossing something out, but it seems to me that a proper light-bending gravitational shield (unlike the Fed shields which, while having a graviton component, do not seem to bend light whatsoever) ought to be able to bend a laser effortlessly, and, short of space-warping energy densities, ought to work for most any pure laser weapon (unlike virtually anything we ever see called a laser).

This would effectively be a cloaking device, of course.

Enterprise: Broken Bow
REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist.

Sounds like Navigational deflector has to move everything out of the way of the ship. If it didn't move things like photon out of the ships way then the ship would basically destroyed by sandblasting.
Enterprise: Fallen Hero
ARCHER: Aft torpedoes. Return fire. 

REED: No effect. They're using some kind of energy shielding. 

T'POL: Direct hit to Engineering, subsection 12. We've taken damage. 

ARCHER: Would the phase cannons be more effective? 

REED: Undoubtedly, but we can't fire them at warp.
This looks to show some weapons are utter useless against shields.

Faster then light in Earth's low atmosphere.
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I was simply describing a hypothetical sci-fi scenario of a 'gravity wall'.

That said, outbound frequency windows on Trek shields are not an actual thing, are they? We know the shields have frequencies of course but I don't think that it is a two-way street… the ship can put anything out past its own shields.

Otherwise it seems like as soon as you fire phasers you'd have told the enemy your shield frequency.

Best of Both World
SHELBY: Mister La Forge has a plan to modulate shield nutation. Hopefully, that'll hold them off for awhile. 

LAFORGE: At the same time, we'll be retuning phasers to higher EM base emitting frequencies to try to disrupt their subspace field.
Weapon frequency and shield frequency don't seem to need to match.

Turning your shields on in Star Trek makes you invisible to things like radar and the naked human eye, and cloaking devices just pug into the shield controls on Federation ships.

Nevermind, early morning brain. Transporters do require shield drop to work, implying both a wide frequency window requirement and an inability to open small holes (though they can beam through small holes as per "When the Bough Breaks" and Aldea's shield.

You're sure that Federation ships can't beam through their own shields?

[theta_pinch]

Yes it does. Captain Picard was NOT referring to the lasers of the ship that was targeting them with lasers; if he was he would have said "their lasers" rather than just "lasers." Worf also never said how powerful the lasers were yet Picard still said: "lasers won't even penetrate the navigational deflector." In the entire conversation lasers were always mentioned in a general sense rather than specifically the lasers of that ship.

Also in another episode Worf said that a ship had High Power X-Ray Lasers and didn't consider that a threat. Those were high power not the "weak" lasers in from "The Outrageous Okona."

You know what is a no-limits fallacy? Or a context? Of course, it is entirely probable (actually, the only possible conclusion) that Federation ships can deflect lasers that are, going by power output, far more powerful than phasers or disruptors that would penetrate the shields, but it does not mean that they can deflect any laser weapons. Any laser weapons that could be practically put on a ship of a given size, maybe, and that is what Picard's comment should be taken to mean. Any laser weapons, period, no.

The navigational deflector is known to distort space when in operation. No matter how energetic light is it will always be affected by gravity (distortions of space.) The very physics of the navigational deflector makes the all lasers are useless interpretation the only possible conclusion.

Just tossing something out, but it seems to me that a proper light-bending gravitational shield (unlike the Fed shields which, while having a graviton component, do not seem to bend light whatsoever) ought to be able to bend a laser effortlessly, and, short of space-warping energy densities, ought to work for most any pure laser weapon (unlike virtually anything we ever see called a laser).

This would effectively be a cloaking device, of course.

Except the shields have a frequency allowing certain wavelengths of light to pass through.

Federation shields have a frequency, which basically mean that they are not always on; they are "pulsated", rapidly turned on and off, which is also what allows phasers (which are similarly pulsated) through. Shields can be configured to completely stop the incoming fire (which is what Borg do with their frequency adaptation; allow early casualties for far fewer casualties later on), and weapons can be configured to pass through the shields by adjusting pulsation. This also means that light will not be normally stopped or affected (maybe we should be getting a fainter image of the ship but that's it). But if I do remember it correctly, shields can be configured so as to distort ship's visual signature.

[359]

You do realize you just claimed gravity is a no limits fallacy? A Laser will never be able to ignore gravity no matter how powerful the laser it will always be equally subject to gravity.

Gravity is a field, which affects things in a different way than light. Much as a black hole can prevent light from escaping. Tt is not a no limits fallacy to claim a gravity well can deflect all light, yet it is one to assume a basic energy field can deflect all light through brute force with a limited energy supply.

Given the navigational deflector has to move everything from space dust to photons out of the way of the ship while it is at warp, Jean Luc's statement should be taken literally.

Why not? The deflector can do these things and others, his statement only says that they can't penetrate even the navigational shielding with their weapons.

Enterprise: Fallen Hero
ARCHER: Aft torpedoes. Return fire. 

REED: No effect. They're using some kind of energy shielding. 

T'POL: Direct hit to Engineering, subsection 12. We've taken damage. 

ARCHER: Would the phase cannons be more effective? 

REED: Undoubtedly, but we can't fire them at warp.
This looks to show some weapons are utter useless against shields.

Since a spacial torpedo is simply an explosive, a nuclear missile according to TOS: "Balance of Terror", I don't see how this could be a lack of effectiveness against shields in general. It seems more likely that they did little to no damage because shielding tends to be much stronger than the hull they expected to hit. And simply the more powerful phase canons would have a better chance of damaging them.

Turning your shields on in Star Trek makes you invisible to things like radar and the naked human eye, and cloaking devices just pug into the shield controls on Federation ships.

In VOY: "Future's End" it wasn't simply turning on the shields that blocked radar or vision. Voyager's shields were specifically modulated to scatter radar while in orbit. The shuttle only masked its visual profile, changing the shape of what would be seen, if one were right on top of them one could still see a distorted shape of the shuttle, or at least that something obviously funny was going on.

You're sure that Federation ships can't beam through their own shields?

Sometimes, depending on plot requirements. But as a general rule they tend not to be able to. However in Voyager they do it more often, so maybe that weakness was overcome somewhere between then and mid TNG.

The navigational deflector is known to distort space when in operation. No matter how energetic light is it will always be affected by gravity (distortions of space.) The very physics of the navigational deflector makes the all lasers are useless interpretation the only possible conclusion.

While there have been instances of the deflector emitting stuff that should cause slight distortions that tends to be after significant modification and is generally less intense than is necessary to bend/deflect/distort light.

Except the shields have a frequency allowing certain wavelengths of light to pass through.

By the looks of things all light can pass through the shields, and the shields require specific modification to prevent light passage as of VOV: "Future's End".

[theta_pinch]

You do realize you just claimed gravity is a no limits fallacy? A Laser will never be able to ignore gravity no matter how powerful the laser it will always be equally subject to gravity.

Gravity is a field, which affects things in a different way than light. Much as a black hole can prevent light from escaping. Tt is not a no limits fallacy to claim a gravity well can deflect all light, yet it is one to assume a basic energy field can deflect all light through brute force with a limited energy supply.

Given the navigational deflector has to move everything from space dust to photons out of the way of the ship while it is at warp, Jean Luc's statement should be taken literally.

Why not? The deflector can do these things and others, his statement only says that they can't penetrate even the navigational shielding with their weapons.

Enterprise: Fallen Hero
ARCHER: Aft torpedoes. Return fire. 

REED: No effect. They're using some kind of energy shielding. 

T'POL: Direct hit to Engineering, subsection 12. We've taken damage. 

ARCHER: Would the phase cannons be more effective? 

REED: Undoubtedly, but we can't fire them at warp.
This looks to show some weapons are utter useless against shields.

Since a spacial torpedo is simply an explosive, a nuclear missile according to TOS: "Balance of Terror", I don't see how this could be a lack of effectiveness against shields in general. It seems more likely that they did little to no damage because shielding tends to be much stronger than the hull they expected to hit. And simply the more powerful phase canons would have a better chance of damaging them.

Turning your shields on in Star Trek makes you invisible to things like radar and the naked human eye, and cloaking devices just pug into the shield controls on Federation ships.

In VOY: "Future's End" it wasn't simply turning on the shields that blocked radar or vision. Voyager's shields were specifically modulated to scatter radar while in orbit. The shuttle only masked its visual profile, changing the shape of what would be seen, if one were right on top of them one could still see a distorted shape of the shuttle, or at least that something obviously funny was going on.

You're sure that Federation ships can't beam through their own shields?

Sometimes, depending on plot requirements. But as a general rule they tend not to be able to. However in Voyager they do it more often, so maybe that weakness was overcome somewhere between then and mid TNG.

The navigational deflector is known to distort space when in operation. No matter how energetic light is it will always be affected by gravity (distortions of space.) The very physics of the navigational deflector makes the all lasers are useless interpretation the only possible conclusion.

While there have been instances of the deflector emitting stuff that should cause slight distortions that tends to be after significant modification and is generally less intense than is necessary to bend/deflect/distort light.

No it projects a subspace field that distorts space; light will ALWAYS follow the curve of space no matter how slight it is. Since the navigational deflector distorts space light is forced to follow the curve of the distortion.

Except the shields have a frequency allowing certain wavelengths of light to pass through.

By the looks of things all light can pass through the shields, and the shields require specific modification to prevent light passage as of VOV: "Future's End".

[359]

No it projects a subspace field that distorts space; light will ALWAYS follow the curve of space no matter how slight it is. Since the navigational deflector distorts space light is forced to follow the curve of the distortion.

I don't recall anything sating the deflector projects a space-bending subspace field, that seems to be mostly the job of the warp engines. The deflector has two main jobs, projecting light shielding to protect the ship from space dust while at warp (and meteor showers while not at warp) VOY: "Year of Hell", and projecting a strong deflector beam to move larger objects out of the ship's path of transit. Of course the deflector has been used for a multitude of other applications, but those generally required some sort of modification.

[theta_pinch]

No it projects a subspace field that distorts space; light will ALWAYS follow the curve of space no matter how slight it is. Since the navigational deflector distorts space light is forced to follow the curve of the distortion.

I don't recall anything sating the deflector projects a space-bending subspace field, that seems to be mostly the job of the warp engines. The deflector has two main jobs, projecting light shielding to protect the ship from space dust while at warp (and meteor showers while not at warp) VOY: "Year of Hell", and projecting a strong deflector beam to move larger objects out of the ship's path of transit. Of course the deflector has been used for a multitude of other applications, but those generally required some sort of modification.

And both the deflector beam and shields are graviton based.

[theta_pinch]

No it projects a subspace field that distorts space; light will ALWAYS follow the curve of space no matter how slight it is. Since the navigational deflector distorts space light is forced to follow the curve of the distortion.

I don't recall anything sating the deflector projects a space-bending subspace field, that seems to be mostly the job of the warp engines. The deflector has two main jobs, projecting light shielding to protect the ship from space dust while at warp (and meteor showers while not at warp) VOY: "Year of Hell", and projecting a strong deflector beam to move larger objects out of the ship's path of transit. Of course the deflector has been used for a multitude of other applications, but those generally required some sort of modification.

It was stated in ds9 emissary that the shield emitters make a subspace field.

[359]

Okay, so it is subspace based, but there is nothing about being space-bending and especially not to the extent of significantly bending light. Otherwise we would never see the ship, nor would any weapons be able to hit them, gravity distortions would bend photon torpedoes just as much as lasers.

[theta_pinch]

Okay, so it is subspace based, but there is nothing about being space-bending and especially not to the extent of significantly bending light. Otherwise we would never see the ship, nor would any weapons be able to hit them, gravity distortions would bend photon torpedoes just as much as lasers.

Yes there is. For example the impulse engines use these things called spacetime driver coils which produce subspace fields suggesting that subspace fields do affect space. We can see the ship because the shields are pulsed hence the frequency which allows certain wavelengths of light pass through. The gravitational distortions do affect photon torpedoes but they are able to go against the curve of space time unlike light which always follows the geometry of spacetime.

[Picard]

You do realize you just claimed gravity is a no limits fallacy? A Laser will never be able to ignore gravity no matter how powerful the laser it will always be equally subject to gravity.

No, it will not. But if Trek shields were that impervious we would not be able to see ships at all. Plus light can nearly ignore weak enough gravity... what you are claiming here is that Trek shields are equivalent of a large black hole. Not to mention that they are not constantly on, they are switched on and off rapidly (whole frequency thing) so even if they are impervious to laser when on, they won't stop weapons fire completely.

Given the navigational deflector has to move everything from space dust to photons out of the way of the ship while it is at warp, Jean Luc's statement should be taken literally.

Again, redirecting 1^19 W does NOT mean that it will be able to redirect 10^39 W.

Frequency literally mean something happens in a rhythmic fashion Picard.

So you have just decided to "forget" all other aspects of shields which confirm that they are rapidly pulsed rather than always on? Such as inability to completely stop weapons fire unless specifically matched to it in terms of frequency and being transparent to all, rather than some, colors?

The navigational deflector is known to distort space when in operation. No matter how energetic light is it will always be affected by gravity (distortions of space.) The very physics of the navigational deflector makes the all lasers are useless interpretation the only possible conclusion.

It is going to be affected, sure, but is it going to be enough?

[theta_pinch]

The navigational deflector is known to distort space when in operation. No matter how energetic light is it will always be affected by gravity (distortions of space.) The very physics of the navigational deflector makes the all lasers are useless interpretation the only possible conclusion.

It is going to be affected, sure, but is it going to be enough?[/quote]

Yes it is going to be enough as evidenced by the navigational deflector deflecting dust grains to boulder sized pieces of rock at relativistic speeds. IT takes a far greater distortion of space to affect matter than energy.

[theta_pinch]

Okay, so it is subspace based, but there is nothing about being space-bending and especially not to the extent of significantly bending light. Otherwise we would never see the ship, nor would any weapons be able to hit them, gravity distortions would bend photon torpedoes just as much as lasers.

In fact there is something about space-bending.

STAR TREK ENTERPRISE: COLD FRONT

TUCKER: The gravimetric field displacement manifold, commonly known as the warp reactor. Just think of it as a great big engine but instead of using electricity or chemical fuel it runs on antimatter. See this swirling light? When matter and antimatter collide it creates a whole lot of energy. We channel that energy through those conduits over there. They lead to the two large glowing cylinders you may have seen on the outside of the ship.
SONSORRA: The nacelles.
TUCKER: That's right.
SONSORRA: Which contain warp coils that create the subspace displacement field.

It's uses the term gravimetric meaning that it warps space. And the coils produce a subspace field. Hence proof that subspace fields warp space.

[Lucky]

No, it will not. But if Trek shields were that impervious we would not be able to see ships at all.

Since when do the visuals of ships show us what is actually going on? They range from a flawed generalization to useless eye candy.

Plus light can nearly ignore weak enough gravity... what you are claiming here is that Trek shields are equivalent of a large black hole.

Shame on me for actually going by what is repeatedly stated and and shown on screen.

KIM: I'm reading power fluctuations in the deflector array.

CHAKOTAY: Cause?

KIM: It looks like the Borg have accessed deflector control. They're trying to realign the emitters.

CHAKOTAY: Shut them out.

KIM: They've bypassed security protocols.

TORRES: We're emitting a resonant gravitation beam. It's creating another singularity.

CHAKOTAY: Reverse course.

PARIS: We're fighting intense gravimetric distortion. I can't break free!

CHAKOTAY: Bridge to Cargo Bay Two. Stop what you're doing, or I'll depressurise that deck and blow you out into space. This is your final warning. Do it! 

TUVOK: Decompression cycle complete.

KIM: I still don't have deflector control.

TUVOK: Commander, a single Borg has survived.

PARIS: We're being pulled in!

CHAKOTAY: Report.

TUVOK: We appear to have crossed an interdimensional rift.

By your reasoning a ships should not be able to use its warp drive on a planet without causing a major Catastrophic event, and yet Kirk uses the warp drive in Earth's lower atmosphere safely in Star Trek 4.

Just nod your head and except the fact that the characters know more about what their technologies can do then we do.

Not to mention that they are not constantly on, they are switched on and off rapidly (whole frequency thing) so even if they are impervious to laser when on, they won't stop weapons fire completely.

You're not telling the truth for some reason though I'm not saying you are lying.

There is nothing that says the shields turn on and off, and what the shield frequency represents is explained on screen.

SHELBY: Mister La Forge has a plan to modulate shield nutation. Hopefully, that'll hold them off for awhile.

The frequency refers to the shield nutation.

Again, redirecting 1^19 W does NOT mean that it will be able to redirect 10^39 W.

You're arguing that Einstein's General Theory of Relativity is wrong? The strength of the beam of light is irrelevant when talking about a strong enough gravitational field bending the path a beam of light follows.

So you have just decided to "forget" all other aspects of shields which confirm that they are rapidly pulsed rather than always on? Such as inability to completely stop weapons fire unless specifically matched to it in terms of frequency and being transparent to all, rather than some, colors?

I've already provided the evidence you are wrong, or do you know more about Starfleet's technology then Starfleet engineers and science officers?

You are claiming that everyone is too stupid to exploit obvious weaknesses in their shields.

The closest you'll get is a quote by O'Brian that the Phoenix drops it's shields every 5.4 minutes when using a high energy sensor system. The fact that Riker and Picard did not know about this weakness tells us that it is rare, and that it does not apply to the Enterprise-D or any other ship they served on.

[Lucky]

Gravity is a field, which affects things in a different way than light. Much as a black hole can prevent light from escaping. Tt is not a no limits fallacy to claim a gravity well can deflect all light, yet it is one to assume a basic energy field can deflect all light through brute force with a limited energy supply.

You seem to have misunderstood what I was trying to say.

Gravity will always alter the path a photon takes no matter how much energy you pump into the photon. It is a proven fact. A black hole (which can easily be created with a navigational deflector or a warp drive) is simply an extreme example altering the path of a photon.

They use gravity for petty much everything from defense to sub-light propulsion to faster then light propulsion.

Why not? The deflector can do these things and others, his statement only says that they can't penetrate even the navigational shielding with their weapons.

No, the quote states all laser are useless against the Enterprise-D's navigational deflector.

WORF: We have an unidentified at twelve mark four. No response to our enquiries. 

PICARD: Extend hailing frequencies, all languages, all channels. 

WORF: Extending. 

DATA: Sensors show it to be an interplanetary vessel, sir. Class seven, crew complement twenty six. 

WORF: Still no response. Captain, they are now locking lasers on us. 

RIKER: Lasers? 

WORF: Yes, sir. 

PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that? 

RIKER; Regulations so call for a Yellow Alert. 

PICARD: A very old regulation. Well, make it so, Number One. And reduce speed. Drop main shields as well. 

RIKER: May I ask why, sir? 

PICARD: In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One.

The quote does imply that there was a time that Federation ships could be threatened by laser weapons in the past, and that some ships are still threatened by lasers, but the weakness no longer exists in the Galaxy class and possibly Federation ships in general.

Since a spacial torpedo is simply an explosive, a nuclear missile according to TOS: "Balance of Terror", I don't see how this could be a lack of effectiveness against shields in general. It seems more likely that they did little to no damage because shielding tends to be much stronger than the hull they expected to hit. And simply the more powerful phase canons would have a better chance of damaging them.

It's always the same claim, the character didn't mean what he said. It's always the same song and dance. Different weapons have different effects/interactions with shields in Star Trek, but this is always ignored, and the guy ignoring this always makes the assumption the character is wrong, and that if the yield was just increased it would be a treat even though this is never implied.

There are two examples of Lasers not being a threat to a Galaxy Class
The Outrageous Okona
Suddenly Human

There are two examples of Merculite rockets not being a threat to shielded ships
Heart of Glory
Suddenly Human

One example of neutral particle weapons not being a threat
Suddenly Human

There is a repeated plot point that polaron can easily pass through Federation shields until the problem is fixed some time during DS9.

Breen energy damping weapon ignores shield

Phasers shoot seemingly anything the plot demands. Harmless energy to feed a space jellyfish, nanotechnology, antimatter, drugs, etc

It's a complex game of rock, paper, scissors.

In VOY: "Future's End" it wasn't simply turning on the shields that blocked radar or vision. Voyager's shields were specifically modulated to scatter radar while in orbit. The shuttle only masked its visual profile, changing the shape of what would be seen, if one were right on top of them one could still see a distorted shape of the shuttle, or at least that something obviously funny was going on.

Spock states that turning on the shields will hide the ship from 60s or 70 era radar.

Every time the UFP gets a cloak they just plug it into the shields.

The shuttle was bending light and other forms em around itself in order to look like a jet.

Voyager was doing what Spock stated turning on the shields would do. Jainway being overly cautious makes some sense give Trek Earth is far more advanced then real Earth, and I see nothing Jainway says contradicting Spock.

The Enterprise-D was implied to be invisible above in First Contact.