A Federation Force User

[Who is like God arbour]

The existence of a correlation is sufficient reason to look for causation, but it is not sufficient to infer/assume causation. It certainly isn't sufficient to infer which element is the cause and which is the effect.

If you have to decide between only two alternatives: there is a causation or there is no causation, what would you choose? You have to decide. Further actions depends on your choice and life depends on that action. You can't let that question unanswered. You have to decide. What is the more logical answer in such a situation?

[Ted C]

The existence of a correlation is sufficient reason to look for causation, but it is not sufficient to infer/assume causation. It certainly isn't sufficient to infer which element is the cause and which is the effect.

If you have to decide between only two alternatives: there is a causation or there is no causation, what would you choose? You have to decide. Further actions depends on your choice and life depends on that action. You can't let that question unanswered. You have to decide. What is the more logical answer in such a situation?

I see no reason to play this game with you. It's impossible to accurately determine whether there is a cause-effect relationship between midichlorians and force sensitivity. It's entirely possible that both are effects of another unidentified cause, for instance.

As I said, correlation is a reason to look for causation, not to make assumptions about what's causing what.

[Mike DiCenso]

Makes me kind of wonder why no one in the SW galaxy ever thought of using genetic engineering or other medical techniques to enhance the number of midichlorians in a person's body.

Quite frankly, we don't know if people have high Force sensitivity because they have lots of midichlorians or people have lots of midichlorians because they're highly Force sensitive.

All we really have is a correlation, not causation.

A very strong correlation made between the numbers of midichlorians in a person's body, and their respective Force-talent potential TPM according to Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi's statements. Palpatine's statements to Anakin in ROTS only reinforces this by describing Darth Plagueis' ability to manipulate the midichlorians via the Force to create life. There is a very strong relationship.

The fact is, if there is a relationship, and it is based on numbers of midichlorians in a person, then it only makes some sense that someone, somewhere at some point in time experimented to see if they could culture midichlorians and insert them into a person to see if their Force potential would grow with it.

The apparent fact that no one so far in the movies or EU have mentioned this possibility is a rather interesting thing.
-Mike

[Who is like God arbour]

If you have to decide between only two alternatives: there is a causation or there is no causation, what would you choose? You have to decide. Further actions depends on your choice and life depends on that action. You can't let that question unanswered. You have to decide. What is the more logical answer in such a situation?

I see no reason to play this game with you.

Aren't you able to come to a decision, if you have not all necessary informations?
That's life. Sometimes you have to decide without having all necessary informations. To be honest, you will never have a 100 percent certainty because such a certainty is impossible.
Often, you simply have to choose, what is more plausible because the alternative, to not choose is not an option, respective even less plausible.
Yes, that means, that your choice can turn out to be wrong ex post. But if you have all available date correctly considered and couldn't have come to another decision, you have made no mistake.
That's also a question of logic: what is the correct decision if one has not all relevant informations, especially if it is not even known, if there are more informations at all.

It's impossible to accurately determine whether there is a cause-effect relationship between midichlorians and force sensitivity. It's entirely possible that both are effects of another unidentified cause, for instance.

As I have said already, you are correct: It's possible that both are effects of another unidentified cause. But there is still Occam's razor. What is, according to that principle, the best explanation?

[Ted C]

All we really have is a correlation, not causation.

A very strong correlation made between the numbers of midichlorians in a person's body, and their respective Force-talent potential TPM according to Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi's statements. Palpatine's statements to Anakin in ROTS only reinforces this by describing Darth Plagueis' ability to manipulate the midichlorians via the Force to create life. There is a very strong relationship.

No one's disputing the existence of a strong correlation. What we don't know is whether one causes the other.

The fact is, if there is a relationship, and it is based on numbers of midichlorians in a person, then it only makes some sense that someone, somewhere at some point in time experimented to see if they could culture midichlorians and insert them into a person to see if their Force potential would grow with it.

We don't know if it's been tried, but it's entirely possible that someone did try, and it just didn't work.

The apparent fact that no one so far in the movies or EU have mentioned this possibility is a rather interesting thing.
-Mike

They may have never mentioned it because -- for them -- the answer is common knowledge. The Jedi Order has been around for millenia; as you say, they probably tried increasing someone's Force sensitivity by artificially upping their midichlorian count ages ago, and it didn't work.

I'm personally inclined to think that a high midichlorian count is a result of Force sensitivity, not the cause.

[Ted C]

I see no reason to play this game with you.

Aren't you able to come to a decision, if you have not all necessary informations?

I could make an educated guess, but that's all it would be. My "decision" would not affect the reality. I can speculate all day about the relationship between Force sensitivity and midichlorians, but the fact remains that we don't have all the information about it.

We know there's a correlation: that's all. I suspect that Force sensitivity causes a high midichlorian count, but I don't actually know it does.

As I have said already, you are correct: It's possible that both are effects of another unidentified cause. But there is still Occam's razor. What is, according to that principle, the best explanation?

Parsimony doesn't give us the answer (EDIT: although I'll grant that a third, unknown factor should be discounted for now). There's good reason to suspect a cause-effect relationship, but there's no way to tell which way it goes.

[Mr. Oragahn]

They may have never mentioned it because -- for them -- the answer is common knowledge. The Jedi Order has been around for millenia; as you say, they probably tried increasing someone's Force sensitivity by artificially upping their midichlorian count ages ago, and it didn't work.

Or maybe it's simply totaly forbidden, or even unthinkable of.

I'm personally inclined to think that a high midichlorian count is a result of Force sensitivity, not the cause.

That's the opposition between the old school, and the new school.

The old school sees the midis as nothing more than a side effect, a biologicial manifestation, like some chemical concentration of elements in a sample that works as the testimoni of the presence of some other element. Mostly a harmless consequence.

The other side sees the midis are a much necessary step for a living being to control the Force.

The fact is, whatever the Force is in the Star Wars galaxy, there are lifeforms directly tied to it which don't exist in, well, us... well assuming that the midichlorians are an alien form of organism. Maybe it's just SW's medical term for mitochondria?

If Darth Plagueis used the midichlorians to gain greater powers and even create life, wouldn't this actually prove that the midichlorians are a much necessary key to unlocking Force sentivity and accessing Force powers?

[Ted C]

They may have never mentioned it because -- for them -- the answer is common knowledge

Or maybe it's simply totaly forbidden, or even unthinkable of.

True, there may be some dogmatic reason they refuse to even try.

The old school sees the midis as nothing more than a side effect, a biologicial manifestation, like some chemical concentration of elements in a sample that works as the testimoni of the presence of some other element. Mostly a harmless consequence.

The other side sees the midis are a much necessary step for a living being to control the Force.

The fact is, whatever the Force is in the Star Wars galaxy, there are lifeforms directly tied to it which don't exist in, well, us... well assuming that the midichlorians are an alien form of organism. Maybe it's just SW's medical term for mitochondria?

If Darth Plagueis used the midichlorians to gain greater powers and even create life, wouldn't this actually prove that the midichlorians are a much necessary key to unlocking Force sentivity and accessing Force powers?

Maybe, although the only people who actually credit the midichlorians with such influence are Qui-Gonn Jinn and Palpatine, and I can't say I consider either of them to be reliable sources. The other Jedi on the Council seem to think Qui-Gonn is a bit of a quack, and there's not telling what Palpatine might say to get his way (although I'll admit he does have a track record of carefully doling out selected portions of the truth more than outright lying).

Anyway, as I've said, midichlorians may well be the key to controlling the Force, but there's no way to really be sure. The best way to tell might be to try reducing someone's midichlorian count to see if that takes away Force powers.

But when you get right down to it, it's a question that we, as fans, can't possibly answer, and I doubt that Lucasfilm, Ltd is going to provide that answer, either.

[Who is like God arbour]

From Star Wars - Episode II - Attack of the Clones:

• »You’ll find that they are totally obedient,« Lama Su was saying, seemingly oblivious to the Jedi’s discomfort.
  »We modified their genetic structure to make them less independent than the original, of course.«
  »Who was the original?«
  »A bounty hunter named Jango Fett,« Lama Su offered without any hesitation.
  »We felt that a Jedi would be the perfect choice, but Sifo-Dyas handpicked Jango himself.«
  The notion that a Jedi might have been used nearly floored Obi-Wan. An army of clones strong in the Force?

As it seems, they have the technology to clone an jedi with its abilities. And, as we have seen, such abilities are hereditary.

[Praeothmin]

although the only people who actually credit the midichlorians with such influence are Qui-Gonn Jinn and Palpatine, and I can't say I consider either of them to be reliable sources. The other Jedi on the Council seem to think Qui-Gonn is a bit of a quack, and there's not telling what Palpatine might say to get his way (although I'll admit he does have a track record of carefully doling out selected portions of the truth more than outright lying).

The other Jedi on the council rather seem to think that Qui-Gonn is wrong to believe Anakin is the "One", but if they truly believed him a "Quack", as you say, then I very much doubt they would have promoted him to Jedi Master, and even less have assigned him a Padawan.

And throughout the Prequels, we are told repeadetly about how Anakin, because he has such a high concentration of Midichlorians ("Higher even that Master Yoda's..."), has the potential to become the most powerful force user there ever was.
Even against Dooku, we saw how powerful Anakin seemed to be, and many credit his inexperience to explain why Dooku lasted so long.

They may not be the cause of the force, but they clearly are the reason why people can use it, and the more you have, the more powerful you may become.

[Ted C]

The other Jedi on the council rather seem to think that Qui-Gonn is wrong to believe Anakin is the "One", but if they truly believed him a "Quack", as you say, then I very much doubt they would have promoted him to Jedi Master, and even less have assigned him a Padawan.

Unless I'm mistaken, they didn't promote him to Jedi Master. Qui-Gonn remained just a Jedi Knight because he didn't rigidly follow the Code. That was the impression I got, anyway, when Obi-Wan said "If you'd just follow the Code, you'd be on the Council". I say this because the rank of Master supposedly went along with being promoted to the Council, which was why Anakin was so outraged when they admitted him to the Council (in ROTS) but didn't give him the Master rank.

And I think that the looks Mace and the others gave each other when Qui-Gonn started talking about Anakin being "conceived by the midichlorians" summed up their opinion of that idea, and that was before they'd been introduced to Anakin.

And throughout the Prequels, we are told repeadetly about how Anakin, because he has such a high concentration of Midichlorians ("Higher even that Master Yoda's..."), has the potential to become the most powerful force user there ever was.

But this just goes back to the known correlation between midichlorian count and Force potential. We know a relationship exists, we just don't know what kind of relationship it is.

Even against Dooku, we saw how powerful Anakin seemed to be, and many credit his inexperience to explain why Dooku lasted so long.

Anakin's power potential is not in dispute, nor is the fact that his midichlorian count reflects that potential.

They may not be the cause of the force, but they clearly are the reason why people can use it, and the more you have, the more powerful you may become.

That's where I think you've gone over into speculation. We don't know if midichlorians are the reason people can use the force. Force potential may be the reason people have high midichlorian counts, not the reverse. We know Qui-Gonn believes midichlorians cause Force ability, but I got the impression that most Jedi don't agree with him on that.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Maybe, although the only people who actually credit the midichlorians with such influence are Qui-Gonn Jinn and Palpatine, and I can't say I consider either of them to be reliable sources. The other Jedi on the Council seem to think Qui-Gonn is a bit of a quack, and there's not telling what Palpatine might say to get his way (although I'll admit he does have a track record of carefully doling out selected portions of the truth more than outright lying).

Palpatine used more selected pieces of truth out of context than outright lies.

Anyway, as I've said, midichlorians may well be the key to controlling the Force, but there's no way to really be sure. The best way to tell might be to try reducing someone's midichlorian count to see if that takes away Force powers.

But when you get right down to it, it's a question that we, as fans, can't possibly answer, and I doubt that Lucasfilm, Ltd is going to provide that answer, either.

Interestingly, I can't say if it comes from the fans or not, and that's to tie with Lucas' own latest words when he talked about the midichlorians, but it really suggested that the amount of midichlorians played a great role in how one could be tuned to the Force, and as such, it was considered possible that Vader was only the shadow of himself as he lost a good amount of midis after being sawed and put into a mechanized suit. Still powerful, but not the so awesome tool of the Force.

I find it funny that Lucas never tried to bridge the immaculate birth of Anakin and Plagueis' ability to create life out of the blue by manipulating midichlorians. Would be funny that the whole Jedi prophecy would have been partially created by a Sith. The irony.

[Mr. Oragahn]

although the only people who actually credit the midichlorians with such influence are Qui-Gonn Jinn and Palpatine, and I can't say I consider either of them to be reliable sources. The other Jedi on the Council seem to think Qui-Gonn is a bit of a quack, and there's not telling what Palpatine might say to get his way (although I'll admit he does have a track record of carefully doling out selected portions of the truth more than outright lying).

The other Jedi on the council rather seem to think that Qui-Gonn is wrong to believe Anakin is the "One", but if they truly believed him a "Quack", as you say, then I very much doubt they would have promoted him to Jedi Master, and even less have assigned him a Padawan.

And throughout the Prequels, we are told repeadetly about how Anakin, because he has such a high concentration of Midichlorians ("Higher even that Master Yoda's..."), has the potential to become the most powerful force user there ever was.
Even against Dooku, we saw how powerful Anakin seemed to be, and many credit his inexperience to explain why Dooku lasted so long.

They may not be the cause of the force, but they clearly are the reason why people can use it, and the more you have, the more powerful you may become.

Not necessarily. The fact that Anakin was said to have the potential to become the most powerful Jedi could simply be based on the fact that he had a lot of midis, and that could be the sign he could become powerful. It does not preclude, from that point, the possibility that the midis are still only a side effect of one's sensitivity to the Force.

What really matters is what Plagueis did, and if there's anything in the novelization that goes deeper into this story, it would be useful.
Thus far, it's still extremely open ended.

What we know for "sure" is that some people consider that the midi-chlorians can create life.

Only Qui-Gon's definition of midichlorians makes it clear that the midis are more than just a side effect, but literally what establishes the connection between an individual and the Force:

ANAKIN : Master, sir...I've been wondering...what are midi-chlorians?
QUI-GON : Midi-chlorians are a microcopic lifeform that reside within all
living cells and communicates with the Force.
ANAKIN : They live inside of me?
QUI-GON : In your cells. We are symbionts with the midi-chlorians.
ANAKIN : Symbionts?
QUI-GON : Life forms living together for mutual advantage. Without the
midi-chlorians, life could not exist, and we would have no knowledge of the
Force. They continually speak to you, telling you the will of the Force.
ANAKIN : They do??
QUI-GON : When you learn to quiet your mind, you will hear them speaking to
you.
ANAKIN : I don't understand.
QUI-GON : With time and training, Annie...you will.

The strangest part about it is how in Star Wars' galaxy, apparently no life can exist without midis. I'd say it's more due to ignorance and possibly a lack of any sample that would prove the contrary.
I'd say it's because for some reason, all lifeforms are infected by midis, and pass on the midis.

I mean, that's one of the only logical conclusions you'd get if upon trillions of lifeforms, all of them had midis to some extent.

That said, concentration and quantity are two different things, but I suppose they use concentrations, full knowing that most individuals would have body masses between that of a dwarf and a tough giant human.

Anyway, something weird happened in SW galaxy.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Unless I'm mistaken, they didn't promote him to Jedi Master. Qui-Gonn remained just a Jedi Knight because he didn't rigidly follow the Code. That was the impression I got, anyway, when Obi-Wan said "If you'd just follow the Code, you'd be on the Council". I say this because the rank of Master supposedly went along with being promoted to the Council, which was why Anakin was so outraged when they admitted him to the Council (in ROTS) but didn't give him the Master rank.

Not all Masters end in the Council. However, all members of the Council (and the other subones, according to the EU) require Masters.

Anakin's promotion was more an operation ploy than a true recognition of his talent and wisdom.

[KILL YOUR PARENTS]

They may have never mentioned it because -- for them -- the answer is common knowledge. The Jedi Order has been around for millenia; as you say, they probably tried increasing someone's Force sensitivity by artificially upping their midichlorian count ages ago, and it didn't work.

Or maybe it's simply totaly forbidden, or even unthinkable of.

Forbidden rings somewhat hollow; if the Jedi had forbade it for whatever reason the Sith would probably have still tried it anyway and there was never any record of that.

Not all Masters end in the Council. However, all members of the Council (and the other subones, according to the EU) require Masters.

Anakin's promotion was more an operation ploy than a true recognition of his talent and wisdom.

Anakin was on the council only as Palpatines representative; he was not made a Master. Windu even outright states this:

MACE: You are on this Council, but we do not grant you the rank of Master.