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Mike DiCenso
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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 26, 2008 3:45 am

Praeothmin wrote:The ability to make droids doesn't mean the droids won't be better then you.

Look at the super computer, Deep Blue.
Capable of beating a Master Chess player, yet built by guys who wouldn't last 3 minutes against the same player.
A Droid, just like a computer, is the sum parts of many different specializations.
Being able to build one doesn't mean you created its programming, invented new parts for it or redefined what was already existing.
The fact that there are many Protocol Droids just like 3PO means that the parts are already available.
Yes, Anakin is a genius, because I don't know many 6 year olds who are able to build a computer from available parts.
But from what we've seen, Droids do seem more competent then humanoids in SW...
Just a quick correction: Anakin at the time of TPM is 9 years old, not 6.

I would say, based on what the novelizations have to say as well other EU sources that Threepio's parts were already manufactured at a factory somewhere, and that Anakin was just putting them together over a period of time, perhaps weeks or months. There's nothing to indicate that Anakin did any parts manufacturing, or any signifcant programing of Threepio at all.

It would be like in real-life with a talented 9 year old building his own computer from pre-manufactured parts that he obtained at a local computer store he just happened to work for.
-Mike

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:27 am

Praeothmin wrote:The ability to make droids doesn't mean the droids won't be better then you.

Look at the super computer, Deep Blue.
Capable of beating a Master Chess player, yet built by guys who wouldn't last 3 minutes against the same player.
A Droid, just like a computer, is the sum parts of many different specializations.
Being able to build one doesn't mean you created its programming, invented new parts for it or redefined what was already existing.
The fact that there are many Protocol Droids just like 3PO means that the parts are already available.
Yes, Anakin is a genius, because I don't know many 6 year olds who are able to build a computer from available parts.
But from what we've seen, Droids do seem more competent then humanoids in SW...
I was under the belief that droids in SW are fairly easy to assemble. They've been around for millenia, maybe more, according to superior canon, and literally ten thousands of years with lower canon.

That said, Anakin was also capable of assembling his own podracer, which was a collection of spare parts. There's not much official blueprint for those and you do have to think out of the box for that. Though globally, it's like making a hotrod PC somehow, to borrow Mike's comparison. Safe that it's powered by a fusion engine. :)
With internet and a bit of smart, it doesn't require lots of intelligence to pack extra cables, weld stuff and cram other prebuilt systems. It's just that most people don't bother. Those who do, however, end with alien cases.
The kid had talent, no question on that.

Damn, I realize I miss podracers.

Maybe they should make a spinoff about podraces. Seriously. Maybe a couple of centuries before TPM.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Thu Jun 26, 2008 10:32 pm

Speaking of droids. It just occured to me, has anyone ever attempted to estimate droid production rates by an analysis of the Geonosis factory that Anakin and Padame fight their way through in AoTC?
-Mike

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Post by ILikeDeathNote » Thu Jun 26, 2008 11:31 pm

Mr. Oragahn wrote: That said, Anakin was also capable of assembling his own podracer, which was a collection of spare parts. There's not much official blueprint for those and you do have to think out of the box for that. Though globally, it's like making a hotrod PC somehow, to borrow Mike's comparison. Safe that it's powered by a fusion engine. :)
I'd say it's more analogous to someone building a literal hotrod, or a plane from a set of plans.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Fri Jun 27, 2008 12:00 am

Not quite as Anakin didn't take some drawings and then retire to cut and bend metal in a machine shop somewhere. He still apparently got most of the podracer parts pre-made as salvage and assembled them. Which is very impressive, but still not on the level of making it truely from scratch.
-Mike

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Post by ILikeDeathNote » Fri Jun 27, 2008 8:05 am

Mike DiCenso wrote:Not quite as Anakin didn't take some drawings and then retire to cut and bend metal in a machine shop somewhere. He still apparently got most of the podracer parts pre-made as salvage and assembled them. Which is very impressive, but still not on the level of making it truely from scratch.
-Mike
Hmmm, then I suppose it's analogous to making a kitplane then.

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Sat Jun 28, 2008 4:28 am

A very high performance kitplane at that, actually.
-Mike

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Post by Praeothmin » Mon Jun 30, 2008 12:49 am

Anakin building his very own podracer without any blueprints is analogous to a nine year old rummaging for old automobile parts (not necessarily from the same brand of cars), assembling them toghether into a Racer (like the Fast and Furious type of race cars) that rivals, and exceeds, any other custom made racer.

That is incredible, and has nothing to do with kitplane assembling...

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Post by Mike DiCenso » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:34 am

Ah, but do we know with certainty that Anakin did not use blueprints or any kind of technical reference when putting together his pod racer?
-Mike

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Praeothmin
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Post by Praeothmin » Mon Jun 30, 2008 3:44 pm

Even if he did Mike, it's still exceptionnal.
Show me a 9 year old built a modern day race-car, even with blueprints, from parts he had to salvage and repair himself, and I'll show you someone who is considered as a Genius, even by our own geniuses...

But I think that the thread is derailing somewhat... :)

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Who is like God arbour
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Post by Who is like God arbour » Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:29 pm

To be honest, to me, much of Star Wars technology looks like it supports plug and play.

What exactly has Anakin done?

He has taken the engines of an old star fighter and has coupled them to the pod. Wow...

The only difficult part seems to me to get at such engines. But as the slave of a junk dealer that was not so difficult.

Do we have any evidence that he has worked at the engines or has done more than only couple them with the pod?

And if, how difficult was, what he has done really?

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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:20 pm

This is what the SW Databank has to say about Anakin's Podracer:
"Built in secret by the young slave Anakin Skywalker, this shiny blue and silver Podracer was boasted to be the fastest ever to compete in the Boonta Eve Classic. It wasn't idle puffery by its creator -- when thrown into the cutthroat racing competition, this Podracer's performance gave Anakin the edge he needed to win the race and his freedom. "

But even so, let's simplify this as W.I.L.G.A did.
He has taken the engines of an old star fighter and has coupled them to the pod. Wow...
Let's take an in depth look at what this entails:
-He has to make sure the engines work, meaning he needs to have knowledge of propulsion mechanics, Starfighter Engine Mechanics, electronics (for all those pesky controllers and such), etc...
-He had to couple them toghether, and then again to a cockpit he acquired, meaning once again he has to be very good in the aforementioned fields (even with a plan) to make sure every system would be compatible and work toghether, which means he probably had to improvise a bit too...
-He had to know enough about fuel to know the amount of it that was needed for the race, what was the proper mixture to get a good, working engine, and not a bomb...

Wow, it was indeed quite a simple endeavour that Anakin performed... ;)

Oh, let's try this:
We'll take a modern car, take out the engine, and find ourselves another engine from a different car.
Now, with a plan of the original car's engine installation, let's ask a 9 year old kid to replace that engine, all by himslef, but using, of course, the provided plan.
According to you W.I.L.G.A, that should be... child's play... :)

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Post by Who is like God arbour » Tue Jul 01, 2008 1:50 pm

That's why I have said, that the Star Wars technology seems to me plug-and-play capable.

We have seen it especially with the droids, where it was possible to plug the head of C3PO on the body of a battle droid.

I have no reason to assume, that it is otherwise with the fighter engines and the pod. It's not that difficult, if you only have to insert plug A in slot B three times.

I admit that it is probably a little bit more - but I don't see, that he has to be an engineer for fighter engines to use them unless he had to repair the engines. And that was not said. As far as I can remember, he merely has taken the two engines and has used them. I can't remember, that a repair was necessary.

And I don't see, why he has to know anything about fuel. Why couldn't he have taken simple the same fuel, all the other pod racer are using too - or the fuel for the star fighter?

What you don't see, is that a modern car has not such a plug-and-play-design and that's why your analogy is stupid. If Anakin would have build such a pod racer with the engines of a fighter from today, I would admit, that he has to be a genius.

That already alone because the engines of fighters from today are extremely maintenance intensive even if they are not strained.

But Star Wars technology does not seem to be so maintenance intensive. There, a fighter is able to land and sink in a swamp and is, without any extensive maintenance and repair measures, ready to fly again.

Their technology is more robust and modular than ours.

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Post by Praeothmin » Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:27 pm

W.I.L.G.A wrote:That's why I have said, that the Star Wars technology seems to me plug-and-play capable.

We have seen it especially with the droids, where it was possible to plug the head of C3PO on the body of a battle droid.
Which could be compared to connecting two different computers with a serial cable: you just need to know which type of cable to use.
I have no reason to assume, that it is otherwise with the fighter engines and the pod. It's not that difficult, if you only have to insert plug A in slot B three times.
And I, seeing as how the Millenium Falcon needed repairs a lot of the time, seeing as how the rebels had extensive pit crews in ANH and TESB, have no reason to assume that it is not...
I admit that it is probably a little bit more - but I don't see, that he has to be an engineer for fighter engines to use them unless he had to repair the engines. And that was not said. As far as I can remember, he merely has taken the two engines and has used them. I can't remember, that a repair was necessary.
And yet he mentions that he needed to salvage a few parts, and we also see him working on the PodRacer with some help from Qui-Gonn, Padme, tweaking his racer.
Here's the Wiktionary definition of "salvage":
salvage (plural salvages)

1-the rescue of a ship, its crew or its cargo from a hazardous situation
2-the ship, crew or cargo so rescued
3-the compensation paid to the rescuers
4-the similar rescue of property liable to loss; the property so rescued
5-anything that has been put to good use that would otherwise have been wasted
6-damaged
The last two definitions would apply in this situation.
So, if Anakin had to salvage parts, or even the two whole engines (yeah, it sure is believable that a slave boy had enough cred laying around to buy two fully functional Fighter engines, that needed no repairs whatsoever... Yeah, I believe that...), then there's a very high probability that they were not in pristine condition, and needed repairs.
Probably extensive repairs.

The more logicial conclusion is that he was able to salvage two engines that needed replacement parts and extensive repairs, and that Anakin made those repairs himself.
And I don't see, why he has to know anything about fuel. Why couldn't he have taken simple the same fuel, all the other pod racer are using too - or the fuel for the star fighter?
Ok, let's re-use my car analogy.
I give you an engine, but don't tell you it works only (or better) with Diesel fuel, and you load it with Unleaded.
Or I give you an engine that works better with an oil-gazoline mixture, but you fill it up with Diesel fuel.
Your engine will never be able to work efficiently, unless you are bright enough to tweak you engine to use this new type of fuel efficiently.
What proof do we have that his engines use the exact same type of fuel the others do?
What you don't see, is that a modern car has not such a plug-and-play-design and that's why your analogy is stupid.
What you don't want to see, is that we have no reason to believe that SW Fighter craft technology is so plug-and-play, and that you assume without proof or logical analysis that they are, which means my example is a lot less stupid then you seem to think... ;)
There, a fighter is able to land and sink in a swamp and is, without any extensive maintenance and repair measures, ready to fly again.
Here, a land vehicule can enter a body of water and navigate it, then return on dry land an resume its automotive functions without any extensive repairs and maintenance either.
This is simply because that engine was build efficiently, and was well isolated, which I believe a good space vehicule, with sensitive electronic and mechanical parts should be.
Their technology is more robust and modular than ours.
But it still doesn't make it "Plug-and-Play"...

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Post by Mr. Oragahn » Tue Jul 01, 2008 11:44 pm

Obi-Wan didn't seem to have much problem to rearrange the wires of the bongo to return power.
Which is surprising. Gungan tech is rather exotic and most unique.

I don't think Anakin would need to know much about fuel. He'd need to know which fuel is needed for his engines, and that's not terribly hard, and be sure that he has the right valves and flow control systems, which again shouldn't be terribly hard, especially when working at an arms dealer with a catalogue long like that of spare parts.
The kid may have even been reading some kind of wikipedia about podracers.

There are sports stars who at 9 years could beat well rounded players simply because their parents had them play very early.
They become brutes in their discipline.

What happened with C3PO's headswap largely points to an extremely modular and easy to assemble technology. The way C3PO's head is reconnected without even R2D2 having access to the damaged wires is... stupid? :)
This is probably one of those things which annoyed me the more in the film.

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