L.A.S.E.R. VS Federation Vessels

[Picard]

No, it will not. But if Trek shields were that impervious we would not be able to see ships at all.

Since when do the visuals of ships show us what is actually going on? They range from a flawed generalization to useless eye candy.

I'm talking about the fact that shields are not constantly on. As a result, they cannot stop 100% of anything.

There is nothing that says the shields turn on and off, and what the shield frequency represents is explained on screen.

SHELBY: Mister La Forge has a plan to modulate shield nutation. Hopefully, that'll hold them off for awhile.

The frequency refers to the shield nutation.

Problem with that is that, unless I'm misunderstanding nutation, shield frequency in that case would not have anything to do with wether weapons fire can pass through shields or not. Yet "matching the frequency" is used multiple times to allow weapons fire (phasers and similar) to pass through the shields.

[theta_pinch]

No, it will not. But if Trek shields were that impervious we would not be able to see ships at all.

Since when do the visuals of ships show us what is actually going on? They range from a flawed generalization to useless eye candy.

I'm talking about the fact that shields are not constantly on. As a result, they cannot stop 100% of anything.

Actually it can. As long as the wavelength of the shield is smaller than the wavelength of the weapon (or simply the size in the case of torpedoes) it wouldn't be able to get through because waves cannot go through an opening smaller than the wave.

There is nothing that says the shields turn on and off, and what the shield frequency represents is explained on screen.

SHELBY: Mister La Forge has a plan to modulate shield nutation. Hopefully, that'll hold them off for awhile.

The frequency refers to the shield nutation.

Problem with that is that, unless I'm misunderstanding nutation, shield frequency in that case would not have anything to do with wether weapons fire can pass through shields or not. Yet "matching the frequency" is used multiple times to allow weapons fire (phasers and similar) to pass through the shields.

You're right nutation is something different. The matching frequencies thing seem to work similar to the propellers on WW2 planes where they synchronized the propellers and the guns so that bullets would go between the blades.

[2046]

If you actually look up nutation and then try to apply what you read to the concept of a shield wall, you will get a minor headache. I think that technobabble was only supposed to apply to the phasers, but ended up getting dragged elsewhere.

[theta_pinch]

Nutation is a rocking, swaying, or nodding motion in the axis of rotation of a largely axially symmetric object, such as a gyroscope, planet, or bullet in flight, or as an intended behavior of a mechanism.

[359]

It's uses the term gravimetric meaning that it warps space. And the coils produce a subspace field. Hence proof that subspace fields warp space.

"Gravimetric field displacement manifold" was in reference to the warp core as an energy source, not to the warp drive as a whole hence the resulting description as "think of it as a great big engine but instead of using electricity or chemical fuel it runs on antimatter." Trip was clearly referencing the core itself with regards to the gravimetric manifold statement. The following lines call the warp filed a type of subspace displacement field. And based on other uses of subspace to alter varying physical laws, and their accidental creation of mini-universes such as in TNG: "Remember Me" or by altering physics to alter universal constants in TNG: "Déjà Q" they do not seem limited to gravitational effects although that may be one use.

By your reasoning a ships should not be able to use its warp drive on a planet without causing a major Catastrophic event, and yet Kirk uses the warp drive in Earth's lower atmosphere safely in Star Trek 4.

Warp drive is stated to operate by generating a contained reality around the ship thereby allowing ships to violate normal laws of physics by slightly removing them from "normal" space, in the case of warp this is done by encompassing the ship in a subspace field. This is further shown in TNG: "Schisms" where subspace is described as containing many different realties, the further one deviates into subspace the less "normal" the contained rules are.

Just nod your head and except the fact that the characters know more about what their technologies can do then we do.

It's always the same claim, the character didn't mean what he said. It's always the same song and dance. Different weapons have different effects/interactions with shields in Star Trek, but this is always ignored, and the guy ignoring this always makes the assumption the character is wrong, and that if the yield was just increased it would be a treat even though this is never implied.

No. The character quite clearly meant what he said, there is just far more context to the situation than is in the dialog, because all the characters (and the audience) already know that. In TNG: "Outrageous Okana" there is further context as they already know they are facing ships with pathetic offensive capabilities in comparison to the Enterprise. So yes, taking the quote out of the context of when the character said it would require that Federation ships be immune to lasers, but in the context of the episode it makes far far more sense to say in context by accepting that it would be any laser those ships they are talking about could ever produce. Especially when most species seem to move away from weaponized lasers once they hit a certain point in their development to more efficient weapons.

There are two examples of Lasers not being a threat to a Galaxy Class
The Outrageous Okona
Suddenly Human

In "Suddenly Human" they later treat the three ships moving into attack posture as threat of actual damage. Even going as far as having LaForge divert extra power to the main shields in case of an attack. So that is in fact a strike against immunity to lasers as they are in that instance clearly meant to be damaging, if still not as powerful as the Enterprise's weapons.

Riker: "The Talarians are moving into attack posture. Classic triangular envelopment."
LaForge: "I've tapped the impulse engines for additional power to shields."

There are two examples of Merculite rockets not being a threat to shielded ships
Heart of Glory
Suddenly Human

Yeah, so?
I wouldn't expect any Tomahawk missile to do anything to a Federation starship, and that is not because the missile wouldn't have any effect. It's simply a pathetic yield compared to what the shields or even bare hull are shown to take.

There is a repeated plot point that polaron can easily pass through Federation shields until the problem is fixed some time during DS9.

So? The screen on my window blocks bugs (wasps, flies, and the like) but not air.

[theta_pinch]

Undeniable proof that deflector shields are gravity based:



Therefore as long as the bending of space is enough no laser no matter how powerful will ever get through.

[Picard]

If you actually look up nutation and then try to apply what you read to the concept of a shield wall, you will get a minor headache. I think that technobabble was only supposed to apply to the phasers, but ended up getting dragged elsewhere.

Headache is the least of problems with that, I almost got a micro black hole from my brain wrapping up on itself when I tried to apply it to the Star Trek shields.

Undeniable proof that deflector shields are gravity based:



Therefore as long as the bending of space is enough no laser no matter how powerful will ever get through.

As I said, shields are not always on... besides, how do we know if it is enough? It seems to me (if my memory serves me right) that lasers are responsibility of navigational deflectors, not shields.

[theta_pinch]

If you actually look up nutation and then try to apply what you read to the concept of a shield wall, you will get a minor headache. I think that technobabble was only supposed to apply to the phasers, but ended up getting dragged elsewhere.

Headache is the least of problems with that, I almost got a micro black hole from my brain wrapping up on itself when I tried to apply it to the Star Trek shields.

Undeniable proof that deflector shields are gravity based:



Therefore as long as the bending of space is enough no laser no matter how powerful will ever get through.

As I said, shields are not always on... besides, how do we know if it is enough? It seems to me (if my memory serves me right) that lasers are responsibility of navigational deflectors, not shields.

We know it's enough because it takes far more curvature of space to push aside rocks moving at half the speed of light than it does to bend light and the deflectors are made to do that. Also shields can take the place of the navigational deflector as seen with the Defiant.

[Lucky]

Warp drive is stated to operate by generating a contained reality around the ship thereby allowing ships to violate normal laws of physics by slightly removing them from "normal" space, in the case of warp this is done by encompassing the ship in a subspace field. This is further shown in TNG: "Schisms" where subspace is described as containing many different realties, the further one deviates into subspace the less "normal" the contained rules are.

1) Gravity is used to warp and otherwise manipulate (sub)space by various Star Trek powers. It's what a warp drive does. A MCH is a measurement of gravity for crying out loud.
TNG: Nth Degree
WORF: Captain, I am picking up subspace distortion. 

PICARD: Mister Data? 

DATA: This disturbance is the result of a highly charged graviton field emanating from our warp nacelles. It is creating a severe bias in the subspace continuum.

TNG: Schisms
LAFORGE: We think we can close the rupture by neutralising the tetryon emissions with a coherent graviton pulse. But we'd have to do that at the source. 

RIKER: How do we find the source? 

LAFORGE: Good question. The emissions are coming from a tertiary subspace domain, but subspace has an infinite number of domains. It's like a huge honeycomb with an endless number of cells. We need to isolate the exact cell that these emissions are coming from.

DS9: Once More Unto the Breach
WORF: We could disrupt their warp fields with an inverse graviton burst. It would force them to drop to impulse until the gravitons dissipated.

Voy: Scorpion part 2
KIM: It looks like the Borg have accessed deflector control. They're trying to realign the emitters.

CHAKOTAY: Shut them out.

KIM: They've bypassed security protocols.

TORRES: We're emitting a resonant gravitation beam. It's creating another singularity. Part 2

2) The ship while at warp is still in normal space, and has to worry about hitting things. This is why they have a Navigational Deflector system.
Ent: Broken Bow
REED: Pardon me, but if I don't realign the deflector, the first grain of space dust we come across will blow a hole through this ship the size of your fist.

Star Trek: Generations
SHIELD STATUS: PRIMARY SYS ACTIVE
GRAVITON FIELD OUTPUT: 625 MCH
SHIELD MODULATION: 257.4 MHz

Voy: Alliances
TUVOK: Captain, my readings indicate the navigational deflector has sustained massive damage. It will be necessary to repair it before we can achieve more than thruster power. 

JANEWAY: Get repair crews on it. Mister Kim, I want a complete analysis of all the damage we've sustained. 

KIM: Yes ma'am.

No. The character quite clearly meant what he said, there is just far more context to the situation than is in the dialog, because all the characters (and the audience) already know that. In TNG: "Outrageous Okana" there is further context as they already know they are facing ships with pathetic offensive capabilities in comparison to the Enterprise. So yes, taking the quote out of the context of when the character said it would require that Federation ships be immune to lasers, but in the context of the episode it makes far far more sense to say in context by accepting that it would be any laser those ships they are talking about could ever produce. Especially when most species seem to move away from weaponized lasers once they hit a certain point in their development to more efficient weapons.

You are the one claiming Picard didn't mean what he said here, and you have no evidence to support it. Even the bleeping Borg disable the E-D's shield before using a LASER to cut the hull.

In "Suddenly Human" they later treat the three ships moving into attack posture as threat of actual damage. Even going as far as having LaForge divert extra power to the main shields in case of an attack. So that is in fact a strike against immunity to lasers as they are in that instance clearly meant to be damaging, if still not as powerful as the Enterprise's weapons.

Riker: "The Talarians are moving into attack posture. Classic triangular envelopment."
LaForge: "I've tapped the impulse engines for additional power to shields."

And? That isn't evidence of the weapons being the threat.

Yeah, so?
I wouldn't expect any Tomahawk missile to do anything to a Federation starship, and that is not because the missile wouldn't have any effect. It's simply a pathetic yield compared to what the shields or even bare hull are shown to take.

Yield is not stated or implied to be the issue much like Spacial Torpedos.

So? The screen on my window blocks bugs (wasps, flies, and the like) but not air.

Which is exactly what I've been saying, and you just shot down your entire argument above.

[Lucky]

I'm talking about the fact that shields are not constantly on. As a result, they cannot stop 100% of anything.

I've seen this claim a lot, but never any proof, and it does not work for torpedos.

Problem with that is that, unless I'm misunderstanding nutation, shield frequency in that case would not have anything to do with wether weapons fire can pass through shields or not. Yet "matching the frequency" is used multiple times to allow weapons fire (phasers and similar) to pass through the shields.

The ship generating the shield does not need to match its own shield frequency. If it did need to match its own shield frequency then the frequency would need to be changed with every shot, or the enemy would know the frequency, but since the frequency is not changed with every shot.

Best of Both Worlds
SHELBY: Mister La Forge has a plan to modulate shield nutation. Hopefully, that'll hold them off for awhile. 

LAFORGE: At the same time, we'll be retuning phasers to higher EM base emitting frequencies to try to disrupt their subspace field.

Definition of NUTATION

1
archaic :  the act of nodding the head

2
:  oscillatory movement of the axis of a rotating body (as the earth) :  wobble

3
:  a spontaneous usually spiral movement of a growing plant part

nu·ta·tion [noo-tey-shuhn, nyoo-] Show IPA
noun

1.
an act or instance of nodding one's head, especially involuntarily or spasmodically.

2.
Botany . spontaneous movements of plant parts during growth.

3.
Astronomy . the periodic oscillation observed in the precession of the earth's axis and the precession of the equinoxes.

4.
Mechanics . the variation of the inclination of the axis of a gyroscope to the vertical.

nu·ta·tion  (no̅o̅-tā′shən, nyo̅o̅-)
n.

1. The act or an instance of nodding the head.

2. A wobble in a spinning gyroscope or other rotating body.

3. Astronomy A small periodic motion of the celestial pole of the earth with respect to the pole of the ecliptic.

4. Botany A slight curving or circular movement in a stem, as of a twining plant, caused by irregular growth rates of different parts.

nutation |n(y)oōˈtā sh ən|

noun

a periodic variation in the inclination of the axis of a rotating object.

• Astronomy a periodic oscillation of the earth's axis that causes the precession of the poles to follow a wavy rather than a circular path.

• Botany the circular swaying movement of the tip of a growing shoot.

Apparently Federation shields spin in a predictable manner, and wobble like the Earth. It is technobabble, but it gives us an idea as to what the shield frequency can and can't be.

[Picard]

I've seen this claim a lot, but never any proof, and it does not work for torpedos.

Whenever a ship is hit with weapons fire, it is shaken. If shields did stop 100% of weapons' fire, there should be little to no effect on the ship itself. And as seen in TNG "The Phoenix", weapons fire can damage ships even if shields are up.

The ship generating the shield does not need to match its own shield frequency. If it did need to match its own shield frequency then the frequency would need to be changed with every shot, or the enemy would know the frequency, but since the frequency is not changed with every shot.

Yet matching the enemy's shield frequency was used multiple times to allow weapons fire to pass through opponent's shields, and in cases of opponents who can and do scan one's shield and weapons frequency, same has to be changed regularly in order to avoid them equploiting it (seen in Star Trek Generations, and just about every Borg episode).

Best of Both Worlds
SHELBY: Mister La Forge has a plan to modulate shield nutation. Hopefully, that'll hold them off for awhile. 

LAFORGE: At the same time, we'll be retuning phasers to higher EM base emitting frequencies to try to disrupt their subspace field.

Events > dialogue > visuals.

[2046]

Apparently Federation shields spin in a predictable manner, and wobble like the Earth. It is technobabble, but it gives us an idea as to what the shield frequency can and can't be.

How exactly would Federation shields spin?

[theta_pinch]

I've seen this claim a lot, but never any proof, and it does not work for torpedos.

Whenever a ship is hit with weapons fire, it is shaken. If shields did stop 100% of weapons' fire, there should be little to no effect on the ship itself. And as seen in TNG "The Phoenix", weapons fire can damage ships even if shields are up.

That is what we call conservation of momentum.

[theta_pinch]

Apparently Federation shields spin in a predictable manner, and wobble like the Earth. It is technobabble, but it gives us an idea as to what the shield frequency can and can't be.

How exactly would Federation shields spin?

Perhaps the emitters involve some sort of spin or precession.

[2046]

Saying shields have a spin makes me think of the analogy of body panels on a car having a spin, which just doesn't make sense. Are they all rotating around the center, or rotating about their own centers (spinning in place, whether laterally or some other way), or what?

It gives me another headache.