TNG conflicted with much of other Trek on that matter, even itself. In TOS, it went back and forth with Kirk calling himself a soldier in "Errand of Mercy", and reference to a "combined service" for the United Earth Space Probe Agency (UESPA) in "Tomorrow is Yesterday". Most of these references are from season one of TOS when Roddenberry and his staff of writers were still largely making things up on the go (witnessed by the transition from Earth and UESPA to solely Starfleet and the Federation as the operating authority for the ship and crew), and later on becomes a bit cloudier on what Starfleet is until the movies when, especially from TWoK to TUC Starfleet is clearly referenced as a military, although in TWoK, David Marcus' statement might just be a radical young man's hot-blooded overexaggeration, not necessarily the exact truth. Of course during this time the silly "we don't use money" nonsense got started in TVH dispite what had been clearly established otherwise in TOS.
TNG's Starfleet, while Roddenberry had control of it, seemed to be exploration with the trappings of military tradition and duties tacked on. Under the tenure of Berman, Ron Moore and others, Starfleet took back on more a mantle of military with exploration duties.
We can maybe explain it all by saying that Starfleet in more dangerous times has a mandate to be the military, and even has dedicated troops, as mentioned often in DS9's Klingon Skirmishing and Dominion War story arcs. But in times of relative peace, they can switch to being a peace-keeping and exploration organization, but still maintains enough stand-by military just in case. So once the Dominion and Borg were identified as serious threats to the Federation's existance, Starfleet quickly switched primary roles.
-Mike
The UFP gets a real army
-
Mike DiCenso
- Security Officer
- Posts: 5839
- Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm
-
The Dude
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 546
- Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Re: The UFP gets a real army
IIRC I put forth a while back that SF maintains a Reserve Force of sorts with it's ships, no reason why it couldn't pertain to it's personnel as well. It's not an ideal solution mind you, as Reservists are almost always inferior to Reg Force troops but it does provide a convenient explanation.
The "combined service" line I take to mean that SF is Army, Navy and Air Force all in one, like present day Belgium and Canada (pardon me while I vomit) rather then a combination of science and military. IIRC the line is in answer to the Starfighter pilot's question of what kind of military they where.
The "combined service" line I take to mean that SF is Army, Navy and Air Force all in one, like present day Belgium and Canada (pardon me while I vomit) rather then a combination of science and military. IIRC the line is in answer to the Starfighter pilot's question of what kind of military they where.
-
Mike DiCenso
- Security Officer
- Posts: 5839
- Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm
Re: The UFP gets a real army
Actually, we don't know whether or not the MACOs seen in the 2150's are still around in some form or the other. It may be that all the troops mentioned and shown in DS9 are from the the seperate militaries and homeguards of the Federation member worlds, who are then simply transported to the battlefield on various planets and so on, with Starfleet acting in the role as navy, and taking over all command of them during combat operations.
-Mike
-Mike
-
The Dude
- Jedi Knight
- Posts: 546
- Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Re: The UFP gets a real army
Well it's possible I suppose. Though unless there is some sort of standardization amongst the "home guard" units your going to have one hell of a logistical, doctrinal and training nightmare.Mike DiCenso wrote:Actually, we don't know whether or not the MACOs seen in the 2150's are still around in some form or the other. It may be that all the troops mentioned and shown in DS9 are from the the seperate militaries and homeguards of the Federation member worlds, who are then simply transported to the battlefield on various planets and so on, with Starfleet acting in the role as navy, and taking over all command of them during combat operations.
-Mike
*shrug* Explains how things went from, "no troops to *poof* troops out the ass" though.
-
Mike DiCenso
- Security Officer
- Posts: 5839
- Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:49 pm
Re: The UFP gets a real army
Starfleet probably has it's own dedicated troops, as we have seen in DS9 on a couple of occasions. As for the use of individual planet ground forces, there would have to be some standardization via massive joint exercises and use of common equipment ala what we see with NATO, and with the now defunct Warsaw Pact.
-Mike
-Mike
-
User1366
- Candidate
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:28 pm
Re: The UFP gets a real army
If it were up to me....
Power Armor
- Provides protection against both kinetic attacks and energy weapons
- Enhances strength, speed, and endurance
- Built-in communications as well as scanning ability, and able to connect to external sensor arrays
- Flight pack (like Spock's boots in Star Trek V)
- Camouflage skin that allows the armor skin to blend into its surroundings (possibly based on holo-technology)
- Built-in force field that activates when the suit detects a projectile rapidly approaching it (staying off most of the time, otherwise, to conserve power. Can be activated and left on when needed, though)
- Built-in transporter signal boosters
Primary Sidearm
A double-barreled weapon with targeting tied into their armor. The top barrel will be a phaser rifle. The bottom barrel will be a firearm with semi-auto and automatic settings which can take two different kinds of ammunition. The former will be standard bullets. They'll be better than modern day bullets, of course, as they'll be made of better materials for piercing armor and flesh, and you can throw in some high-tech stuff to make the ammo highly explosive, but it'll be pretty basic. That'll give Federation Troopers something they can use even in scenarios where energy weapons are disabled.
The other ammo type will consist of bullets that are effectively mini-rockets, with micro-homing systems designed to track a target once you’ve locked onto them. They'll be programmable to lock onto a targets genetic makeup, meaning that the bullets will go after, say, Klingons if they're programmed to go after Klingons, while avoiding anything that isn't a Klingon.
Secondary Weapon
A monomolecular combat knife. And they’ll damn well be taught how to use them, as well as general hand-to-hand training.
Grenades
High-explosive grenades, fragmentation grenades, and flashbang grenades. More advanced versions, of course.
And that’s just the basic infantryman. A proper military should have countless weapons to suit countless roles, from RPG equivalents to minigun equivalents. Hell, a modern day minigun would do wonders for Starfleet. Can you imagine the carnage they could’ve inflicted on the Jem’Hadar during the Siege of AR-558 if they’d had a minigun on hand? Point is, there’s no such thing as a “Swiss Army Knife” when it comes to war. A single tool that can do all the jobs. There’re a thousand different jobs that need doing, and Starfleet needs a tool for each and every one of those jobs.
They need troop transports for inserting their ground forces into orbit (They can fly, so they can be dropped from there). They also need another transport that can deposit them straight on the ground if the atmosphere won’t allow them to fly down, themselves. They need heavier weaponry, as well as numerous kinds of artillery to allow them to hit targets that aren’t in LOS. They need heavy armor to spearhead ground assaults. And if that armor is of the hover tank variety, with a force field, then so much the better. They need atmospheric fighter craft as well as orbital fighter craft. They also need craft which can operate in the deep ocean depths, and build transports designed with boarding enemy ships in mind (an access point designed to cut into an enemy hull).
And at the top of it all, Starfleet needs to split into two branches. An exploration branch and a military branch. Put all those ships with astrometrics labs, stellar cartography labs, etc into the exploration branch. The other service, however, will be purely military. Not a single one of their ships will have any kind of scientific research facilities. All they’ll have will be crew quarters, mess halls, armories, medical bays, and guns. Lots and lots of guns. Pulse weapons, point defense weapons, and torpedo tubes. And their job won’t be to “Boldly go where no one has gone before”. Their job will be to stay within Federation borders for the most part, patrolling the borders as well as the inner systems. And in times of war, it shouldn’t be the Intrepid class starships that are forming the spear tips, but rather, the ships that are built for war. From dreadnoughts and Man-O-Wars to fighter craft and carrier groups. And for the love of God, build ships which are intended to fight at ranges in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers, if not more. If you can stand at a window and see the enemy ship, then you’re doing it wrong (Come to think of it, if you’ve got a hull covered in windows, then you’re also doing it wrong). The goal is to be able to strike at your enemy from the maximum distance possible.
Power Armor
- Provides protection against both kinetic attacks and energy weapons
- Enhances strength, speed, and endurance
- Built-in communications as well as scanning ability, and able to connect to external sensor arrays
- Flight pack (like Spock's boots in Star Trek V)
- Camouflage skin that allows the armor skin to blend into its surroundings (possibly based on holo-technology)
- Built-in force field that activates when the suit detects a projectile rapidly approaching it (staying off most of the time, otherwise, to conserve power. Can be activated and left on when needed, though)
- Built-in transporter signal boosters
Primary Sidearm
A double-barreled weapon with targeting tied into their armor. The top barrel will be a phaser rifle. The bottom barrel will be a firearm with semi-auto and automatic settings which can take two different kinds of ammunition. The former will be standard bullets. They'll be better than modern day bullets, of course, as they'll be made of better materials for piercing armor and flesh, and you can throw in some high-tech stuff to make the ammo highly explosive, but it'll be pretty basic. That'll give Federation Troopers something they can use even in scenarios where energy weapons are disabled.
The other ammo type will consist of bullets that are effectively mini-rockets, with micro-homing systems designed to track a target once you’ve locked onto them. They'll be programmable to lock onto a targets genetic makeup, meaning that the bullets will go after, say, Klingons if they're programmed to go after Klingons, while avoiding anything that isn't a Klingon.
Secondary Weapon
A monomolecular combat knife. And they’ll damn well be taught how to use them, as well as general hand-to-hand training.
Grenades
High-explosive grenades, fragmentation grenades, and flashbang grenades. More advanced versions, of course.
And that’s just the basic infantryman. A proper military should have countless weapons to suit countless roles, from RPG equivalents to minigun equivalents. Hell, a modern day minigun would do wonders for Starfleet. Can you imagine the carnage they could’ve inflicted on the Jem’Hadar during the Siege of AR-558 if they’d had a minigun on hand? Point is, there’s no such thing as a “Swiss Army Knife” when it comes to war. A single tool that can do all the jobs. There’re a thousand different jobs that need doing, and Starfleet needs a tool for each and every one of those jobs.
They need troop transports for inserting their ground forces into orbit (They can fly, so they can be dropped from there). They also need another transport that can deposit them straight on the ground if the atmosphere won’t allow them to fly down, themselves. They need heavier weaponry, as well as numerous kinds of artillery to allow them to hit targets that aren’t in LOS. They need heavy armor to spearhead ground assaults. And if that armor is of the hover tank variety, with a force field, then so much the better. They need atmospheric fighter craft as well as orbital fighter craft. They also need craft which can operate in the deep ocean depths, and build transports designed with boarding enemy ships in mind (an access point designed to cut into an enemy hull).
And at the top of it all, Starfleet needs to split into two branches. An exploration branch and a military branch. Put all those ships with astrometrics labs, stellar cartography labs, etc into the exploration branch. The other service, however, will be purely military. Not a single one of their ships will have any kind of scientific research facilities. All they’ll have will be crew quarters, mess halls, armories, medical bays, and guns. Lots and lots of guns. Pulse weapons, point defense weapons, and torpedo tubes. And their job won’t be to “Boldly go where no one has gone before”. Their job will be to stay within Federation borders for the most part, patrolling the borders as well as the inner systems. And in times of war, it shouldn’t be the Intrepid class starships that are forming the spear tips, but rather, the ships that are built for war. From dreadnoughts and Man-O-Wars to fighter craft and carrier groups. And for the love of God, build ships which are intended to fight at ranges in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers, if not more. If you can stand at a window and see the enemy ship, then you’re doing it wrong (Come to think of it, if you’ve got a hull covered in windows, then you’re also doing it wrong). The goal is to be able to strike at your enemy from the maximum distance possible.
-
Praeothmin
- Jedi Master
- Posts: 3920
- Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 10:24 pm
- Location: Quebec City
Re: The UFP gets a real army
They've already got one, it's called "The Defiant"... :)Cdr. Elias Vaughn wrote:And in times of war, it shouldn’t be the Intrepid class starships that are forming the spear tips, but rather, the ships that are built for war.
But I agree, they should build them by the hundreds and let them take care of patrolling.
I disagree on one thing though:
The explorer ships should alos be well armed, as they are right now, but they should have a warship accompany them for every encounter with a new race, which might be deemed dangerous, or simply because you never know when it will be...