Star wars vs star trek......what the hell

[Mr. Oragahn]

1. Deflector dishes hardly deflect torpedoes or the nadion particles of phaser/disruptor beams, so they're irrelevant.

Those are subspace-based weapons; comparing nadions to ions is… pretty misinformed about the difference.

They are weapons in realspace, with particles in real space. If they have subspace attached effects, it's one thing, but these weapons surely don't travel through subspace.

Likewise, ST torpedoes have shields that that are obviously more powerful than those of deflector-shields, to the point that they glow from the intensity.

No, it just means that their intensity is greater. It doesn't mean it particularly more powerful in total than the shields of a ship that is powered by a reactor many times the size of a torpedo.

2. Subspace interception/deviation tech does not matter to realspace weapons.

Just the space they travel through, which gets bent, and the weapon thus deflected almost effortlessly.

Pardon?

3. Battle shields are the only concern here. SW shields can cope with ions as "laser" bolts contain plasma as much as light (it's a weird mix), and they stop them well enough.

And that’s standard EM-based energy, not subspace-based.

If you have nothing good to add to a point and you can only concede, then do it, or counter argue. But don't taint all paragraphs of a post with one single subtopic. See, for example, how the point about subspace is discussed above that paragraph.
Here, we're talking about shields and ions.
And Praeothmin has properly addressed the case as well.
So ST and SW are pretty much even here.

The EU is canon within a specific policy which is largely supported by Lucas' business.

Nopers. It’s a DIFFERENT UNIVERSE.

You don't really know much about how policies are handled, do you?
There are two policies, that's all.

If you consider .168C to be “near instant-hit—“

Far more than enough.

To hit a WARP-driven starship? At 300,000 km, it would take the beam SEVEN SECONDS to reach its target—by which time the ship would be long outta there.

What. The. Hell.
What are you arguing about with those warp speed ships?
ST ships don't fight against STL ships by warping around them.
Outliers won't work on me.

However, like anything, the speed of matter is dictated by how much energy you want to spend in it for its acceleration.

If you’ve never heard of a little thing called E=MC^2. Beyond lightspeed, you need subspace-based tech in order to exceed it.

We're not talking about speeds beyond c.
And please, stop abusing E=MC². It's getting both old and silly. It's not an intawin card.

while phasers move at tens of thousands of times lightspeed.

No they don't.
They move that fast while inside the warp bubble of the ship that fired it. I believe I don't have to point out the obvious conclusion of this little fact that seems to have escaped your attention.

Yes, they do. The warp-bubble isn’t much bigger than the ship, while the-beam clearly moves that fast outside of it.
Phasers use subspace-distortion technology just like the warp-bubble, so it clearly doesn’t need the ship’s warp-bubble to move that fast.

Still no. A ship at warp firing at another ship at warp, with phasers, is not the same as a ship at warp trying... say hoping ever hitting a ship moving at STL.

Another point, btw.
The Star Wars galaxy is full of people open to business. It's also full of diplomats and military people open to ideas.
What do you think will happen, in a war not fictitiously limited to a struggle against the UFP, if SW companies and military industries want to acquire typical Trek tech, such as the kind that's sold by... the Ferengi?
You know, torps, phasers, disruptors, transporters, antimatter reactors and some other fairly basic stuff?...

Or, if SW people make a deal with any major power in the Trek galaxy... Romulans... Dominion... hell, even the Klingons perhaps? You never know, there's surely old timers who hate the way they fell they've been neutered by those deals with the UFP.

Simply put, Trek does not have the power to take on the SW galaxy. It can attack and make the Empire fall, but that's not the galaxy. The Empire is a reachable target because it's a big gas construct centered around a weak core, an Achilles' Heel.

It's also much more likely that, assuming we're dealing with a scenario during the Empire era, that once the beast gone, if contacts are still available with the UFP... they'd go for peace and make commercial deals instead of wasting worlds and people in a stupid war.

[Mr. Oragahn]

See, in SW, we have some instances where damage was done before the visible part of the Turbolaser bolt hit, but we've never seen this in ST.

St-v-sw has debunked this claim of the "invisible turbolaser."

Go figure. I'm not sure the debunking still works with what happened in ROTS, during the battle of Kashyyyk, when Yoda was nearly hit by a random bolt. The heat is already transmitted before the visible bolt has landed.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Those are subspace-based weapons; comparing nadions to ions is… pretty misinformed about the difference.

They are weapons in realspace, with particles in real space. If they have subspace attached effects, it's one thing, but these weapons surely don't travel through subspace.

Surely they DO, if they travel FTL.

Likewise, ST torpedoes have shields that that are obviously more powerful than those of deflector-shields, to the point that they glow from the intensity.

No, it just means that their intensity is greater. It doesn't mean it particularly more powerful in total than the shields of a ship that is powered by a reactor many times the size of a torpedo.

Fortunately, it only needs to contend with the portion of the shield that it impacts; if the torp's shield is stronger, then it will cancel that portion, and it will slip through.

2. Subspace interception/deviation tech does not matter to realspace weapons.

Just the space they travel through, which gets bent, and the weapon thus deflected almost effortlessly.

Pardon?

As the space is bent by the deflector-shield or beam, so is the weapon travelling through it.

3. Battle shields are the only concern here. SW shields can cope with ions as "laser" bolts contain plasma as much as light (it's a weird mix), and they stop them well enough.

And that’s standard EM-based energy, not subspace-based.

If you have nothing good to add to a point and you can only concede, then do it, or counter argue. But don't taint all paragraphs of a post with one single subtopic. See, for example, how the point about subspace is discussed above that paragraph.
Here, we're talking about shields and ions.
And Praeothmin has properly addressed the case as well.
So ST and SW are pretty much even here.

I counter-argued perfectly. If you don't understand it, that's your failing not mine.
Ions travel through space, so if that space is distorted by subspace deflector-shields then it'll be diverted right around the ship.

The EU is canon within a specific policy which is largely supported by Lucas' business.

Nopers. It’s a DIFFERENT UNIVERSE.

You don't really know much about how policies are handled, do you?

There are two policies, that's all.

Yep-- one for each universe.
We're talking about the one where Boba Fett DIED, not the one in the books.

What are you arguing about with those warp speed ships?
ST ships don't fight against STL ships by warping around them.

No, they can warp PAST them while firing-- see "Journey to Babel."

We're not talking about speeds beyond c.

We are when we discuss ST ships and weapons.

Still no. A ship at warp firing at another ship at warp, with phasers, is not the same as a ship at warp trying... say hoping ever hitting a ship moving at STL.

Tell the commander of the Orion ship in "Journey to Babel," he didn't seem to realize that.Same with the Enterprise in "The Ultimate Computer" and other occasions.

It's also much more likely that, assuming we're dealing with a scenario during the Empire era, that once the beast gone, if contacts are still available with the UFP... they'd go for peace and make commercial deals instead of wasting worlds and people in a stupid war.

Well, duh, that's what the Federation doees best-- but that's not the scope of the argument, when we say "UFP vs. the Galactic EMPIRE."

And if the Sith tried some big conspiracy again, and needed someone to stop it-- well that's what Picard does best. And once Federation doctors got rid of those pesky midichlorian parasites, then the SW galaxy could stop their silly star-wars; only a fool fights in a burning house-- even a Klingon knows that..

[KirkSkyWalker]

See, in SW, we have some instances where damage was done before the visible part of the Turbolaser bolt hit, but we've never seen this in ST.

St-v-sw has debunked this claim of the "invisible turbolaser."

Go figure. I'm not sure the debunking still works with what happened in ROTS, during the battle of Kashyyyk, when Yoda was nearly hit by a random bolt. The heat is already transmitted before the visible bolt has landed.

Or maybe Yoda sensed it coming and deflected it; he put his hand up anyway.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Or maybe Yoda sensed it coming and deflected it; he put his hand up anyway.

We see the impact before the bolt even gets there.

[Mr. Oragahn]

Those are subspace-based weapons; comparing nadions to ions is… pretty misinformed about the difference.

They are weapons in realspace, with particles in real space. If they have subspace attached effects, it's one thing, but these weapons surely don't travel through subspace.

Surely they DO, if they travel FTL.

So now warp = subspace travel?
I thought that was limited to wormhole/transwarp?
You're yet to prove that a ship flying at warp can really achieve anything meaningful, on a regular basis, at such speed, against a ship flying below c.

Likewise, ST torpedoes have shields that that are obviously more powerful than those of deflector-shields, to the point that they glow from the intensity.

No, it just means that their intensity is greater. It doesn't mean it particularly more powerful in total than the shields of a ship that is powered by a reactor many times the size of a torpedo.

Fortunately, it only needs to contend with the portion of the shield that it impacts; if the torp's shield is stronger, then it will cancel that portion, and it will slip through.

No, it won't cancel it, it will simply blow up against the shield and "hurt" it.

As the space is bent by the deflector-shield or beam, so is the weapon travelling through it.

Huh, that only applies when they fly at warp at best.
AS I thought, you try to blur realities.
I'l wait for evidence of Trek ships routinely warp-circling ships flying below c.

If you have nothing good to add to a point and you can only concede, then do it, or counter argue. But don't taint all paragraphs of a post with one single subtopic. See, for example, how the point about subspace is discussed above that paragraph.
Here, we're talking about shields and ions.
And Praeothmin has properly addressed the case as well.
So ST and SW are pretty much even here.

I counter-argued perfectly. If you don't understand it, that's your failing not mine.

You didn't. He has canon evidence that shields of ships not moving at warp have issues with ion storms and other high power ion-phenomena.

Ions travel through space, so if that space is distorted by subspace deflector-shields then it'll be diverted right around the ship.

What a load of babble. When do subspace deflector shields ever enter the equation of deflecting particle beams at less than c?

Yep-- one for each universe.
We're talking about the one where Boba Fett DIED, not the one in the books.

No, you suddenly decided so. I didn't.

What are you arguing about with those warp speed ships?
ST ships don't fight against STL ships by warping around them.

No, they can warp PAST them while firing-- see "Journey to Babel."

Better: you provide evidence, and you prove this can be repeated easily or is even understood as a valid, typical and fairly usable battle tactic.

We're not talking about speeds beyond c.

We are when we discuss ST ships and weapons.

Don't be silly.
Any Trek battle will show you ships fighting at non-warp speeds, even when attacking planets, space stations or other random asteroids.

Still no. A ship at warp firing at another ship at warp, with phasers, is not the same as a ship at warp trying... say hoping ever hitting a ship moving at STL.

Tell the commander of the Orion ship in "Journey to Babel," he didn't seem to realize that.Same with the Enterprise in "The Ultimate Computer" and other occasions.

Detail your evidence, please.

It's also much more likely that, assuming we're dealing with a scenario during the Empire era, that once the beast gone, if contacts are still available with the UFP... they'd go for peace and make commercial deals instead of wasting worlds and people in a stupid war.

Well, duh, that's what the Federation doees best-- but that's not the scope of the argument, when we say "UFP vs. the Galactic EMPIRE."

Fortunately enough, we have that post of yours where you speak of attacking the SW galaxy, not specifically taking down the Empire.

[Praeothmin]

Neither of which can damage a ship, so it's comparing nothing to nothing.
In contrast, a tidal wave can damage a ship, so it's comparing something to nothing.

And here we see you ignore the point of the post because you know you cannot refute it.
Concentration of water is the important part in my example, just as the concentration of Ions in an Ion bolt will be important.
The Ion bolt will have a much, much higher concentration of Ions in it then a comparable volume of an Ion Storm.
Plus, it travels much faster, and impacts in a more localized area on a ship.

Your words, not mine. The light moves at C, but at an angle over a long distance.

Really?
So light moving at an angle relatively to me makes it go at speeds in the low km/second?
How can that be, exactly?
As I said, at low viewing speeds, I can see the bolt advance towards its target...

St-v-sw has debunked this claim of the "invisible turbolaser."

No, what it has debunked is the "c speed" invisible bolt, but there are still clearly instances of damage occuring to targets before the visible part hits the target...

As the space is bent by the deflector-shield or beam, so is the weapon travelling through it.

You have yet to provide evidence that the shields are powerful enough to do that when they can't even deflect Torpedoes.
If the shields truly curved space, then Torpedoes would also be affected, as you'd see them swerve in the last instants before hitting the targets, before their engines could correct their trajectory...

So while the shields are able to deflect the stray atom or molecule, they have shown themselves incapable of deflecting any type of particles or even basic energy in high enough concentration...
Shields can't even deflect Ions in an Ion storm sufficiently to protect them completely, so how could they even do this properly against an extremely high concantration of Ions like that found in an Ion bolt?

[KirkSkyWalker]

Surely they DO, if they travel FTL.

So now warp = subspace travel?

Only if you believe E=MC^2 is accurate.

I thought that was limited to wormhole/transwarp?

That’s when it leaves N-space entirely. Warp-travel involves remaining partially in N-space. Everything that exists is partially in subspace, but FTL simply increases it beyond normal gravitational constants.

You're yet to prove that a ship flying at warp can really achieve anything meaningful, on a regular basis, at such speed, against a ship flying below c.

“On a regular basis?” HELLO? WTF?

If it happens once, it can happen twice; and it did happen twice: in “Journey to Babel” and “The Ultimate Computer.”

As the space is bent by the deflector-shield or beam, so is the weapon travelling

through it.

Huh, that only applies when they fly at warp at best.

No, it applies at STL. FTL-weapons have a chance of penetrating the shields.

AS I thought, you try to blur realities.
I'l wait for evidence of Trek ships routinely warp-circling ships flying below c.

No, you won’t; canon-precedent is canon-precedent, unless there was some unusual circumstance at work—and there wasn’t. This “routinely” condition of yours is pure BS.

If you have nothing good to add to a point and you can only concede, then do it, or counter argue. But don't taint all paragraphs of a post with one single subtopic. See, for example, how the point about subspace is discussed above that paragraph.
Here, we're talking about shields and ions.
And Praeothmin has properly addressed the case as well.
So ST and SW are pretty much even here.

I counter-argued perfectly. If you don't understand it, that's your failing not mine.

You didn't. He has canon evidence that shields of ships not moving at warp have issues with ion storms and other high power ion-phenomena.

But none of ion-canons—again, that’s comparing a super-soaker to a Tsunami that destroys a ship, saying “they’re both water moving at the same velocity and density, so they can both destroy a ship.” Obviously that’s a ridiculous non-sequitur.

Ions travel through space, so if that space is distorted by subspace deflector-shields then it'll be diverted right around the ship.

What a load of babble. When do subspace deflector shields ever enter the equation of deflecting particle beams at less than c?

Continuously, via the navigational deflectors—and the tactical deflectors are even more powerful.
And where do you get the idea that deflecting particles at FTL is easier than STL? It’s quite the reverse.

Yep-- one for each universe.
We're talking about the one where Boba Fett DIED, not the one in the books.

No, you suddenly decided so. I didn't.

No, Lucas decided so; I simply accept that he’s the one who decides—NOT YOU.

What are you arguing about with those warp speed ships?
ST ships don't fight against STL ships by warping around them.

No, they can warp PAST them while firing-- see "Journey to Babel."

Better: you provide evidence, and you prove this can be repeated easily or is even understood as a valid, typical and fairly usable battle tactic.

http://st-v-sw.net/STSWwarpturn.html#III

[KirkSkyWalker]

Neither of which can damage a ship, so it's comparing nothing to nothing.
In contrast, a tidal wave can damage a ship, so it's comparing something to nothing.

And here we see you ignore the point of the post because you know you cannot refute it.

No I don’t. :-D

The Ion bolt will have a much, much higher concentration of Ions in it then a comparable volume of an Ion Storm.
Plus, it travels much faster, and impacts in a more localized area on a ship.

Nice opinion. Facts please.

If the shields truly curved space, then Torpedoes would also be affected, as you'd see them swerve in the last instants before hitting the targets, before their engines could correct their trajectory...

Only if they were unshielded.

Shields can't even deflect Ions in an Ion storm sufficiently to protect them completely, so how could they even do this properly against an extremely high concantration of Ions like that found in an Ion bolt?

Yeah, now we’re back to the Supersoaker vs. tsunami argument, since you’re ignoring the VOLUME of ions, and you have no evidence regarding velocity or concentration. Next you’ll say that a supernova is the same as a blaster, since they both eject superheated plasma at near-C, and “Generations” proved that a supernova can destroy a starship.
Also what’s your evidence of damage from an ion-storm? Certainly the Enterprise never took any, though ordinary ships may have.

[Lucky]

You have yet to provide evidence that the shields are powerful enough to do that when they can't even deflect Torpedoes.
If the shields truly curved space, then Torpedoes would also be affected, as you'd see them swerve in the last instants before hitting the targets, before their engines could correct their trajectory...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't photon torpedos have super-powerful shields, their own warp-drive, their own impulse engines, the own navigational deflectors, and their own sensor. Torpedos by design should be able to deal with shields. They are practically mini-ships.

[Kor_Dahar_Master]

You have yet to provide evidence that the shields are powerful enough to do that when they can't even deflect Torpedoes.
If the shields truly curved space, then Torpedoes would also be affected, as you'd see them swerve in the last instants before hitting the targets, before their engines could correct their trajectory...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't photon torpedos have super-powerful shields, their own warp-drive, their own impulse engines, the own navigational deflectors, and their own sensor. Torpedos by design should be able to deal with shields. They are practically mini-ships.

I am sure i saw somwhere that torps were specifically guided and setup so they are not effected by the effects of navigational deflectors or other things that normally make starships immune to most physical impacts.

[KirkSkyWalker]

I am sure i saw somwhere that torps were specifically guided and setup so they are not effected by the effects of navigational deflectors or other things that normally make starships immune to most physical impacts.

They'd have to.

The Romulan plasma-weapon didn't have this advantage, and could be detonated by simply shooting it with phasers. Obviously this wouldn't be a good feature to have in a weapon.

[Praeothmin]

Nice opinion. Facts please

Well, since you provided no facts to support your Tsunami/Super Soaker analogy, why should I?
I provided the link to the ST Ion storm article that indicates that ships are endangered by these types of storms, while you provided... nothing.
I explained that the concentration of Ions will be important in this case, while you provided... nothing.

But hey, I can do it again.
For ST:
This article states that:

An ion storm (also called an ionic storm or ionic front) is a type of magnetic storm which contains ionically charged particles, traveling at thousands of kilometers an hour.

So it acts nothing like a Tsunami, mora like a Rain Storm...

Ionic storms above level 8 are a threat to Intrepid-class starships. The USS Voyager encountered level 7 and level 8 storms in the Delta Quadrant in 2375. (VOY: "Once Upon a Time")

and

A Borg sphere was heavily damaged by an ion storm in 2375. As a result, it was chosen by the Voyager crew to be the target of a raid to steal a transwarp coil. (VOY: "Dark Frontier")

So even with Deflectors, ST ships are in no way immune to Ion Storms...

For SW:
This article states:

Created by a release of magnetic energy within a star, ion storms were fast-moving bursts of plasma that radiated outward into the surrounding star system. They were considered dangerous, as they had the potential to wreak havoc on bodies unprotected by a magnetic field. Starships were particularly vulnerable and, as ion storms could knock out shielding and a ship’s electrical systems (compare ion cannon), they were avoided wherever possible.

And what is an Ion Cannon?

Large negative-ion pulses were charged in a turbine generator then channeled into a plasma charge or released as a large pulse towards a target.

So they fired highly ionized pulses of Plasma, inferring to high concentrations of Ions.

In both universes, Ion Storms can damage ships, and an Ion Cannon does the same thing.
It is therefore highly logical to believe that an Ion Cannon could indeed affect a ST ship.

By the way, what are your facts that an Ion Storm is akin to a Tsunami, or that the Ion concentration in Ion pulses are lower than, or equal to those in a storm?

As for the Torpedo argument, I will admit the shields could beused to counteract the target's shields, I've always believed it myself, though not because of Gravitations issues.
And as Mike said, there are many "ordinary" objects that can hit a shielded ship, such as the Romulan ship debris that hit the shielded E-E in Nemesis, and many more over the series and movies...
So no "super-graviton-object-deflecting" shields on ST ships...

[Mr. Oragahn]

To Kirky:

I've never seen someone abuse the E=mc² equation so much to support his arguments, even when both were unrelated and when the equation certainly did not explain the other.
I'm putting an end to this silly game.
You will prove that the equation has anything to do with subspace.
You will prove that warp partially pulls stuff into subspace.
If you cannot do both, concede.

As for warp straffing, all the examples you pull are from TOS. Not a single example is provided on RSA's page for battle warp stragging outside of TOS. Which brings me to wonder if "warp" back then really meant FTL, and I'll obviously point to the movies, where we see ships engaging at warp, yet certainly not moving anywhere that fast.

I'll certainly not take evidence from an outdated show which even Roddenberry himself took distances from, and that TOS fans be damned. I don't care.
The very fact that you will absoltely struggle to present evidence from ENT, TNG, DS9, VOY and even the movies is plain enough.
And no BS about claiming that if one goes to warp, the other could so they don't bother.
First, because most space station, planets and asteroids don't go to warp yet they're engaged at STL speeds.
Secondly, because the ship which has the greater warp will always be able to circle the slower warp capable ship to relative speeds which are so ludicrously different that it doesn't even need to be explained.

I notice that you also reject modern canon evidence about the shield weakness to high magnitude ion based phenomena. This is your concession.

As for the canon, Lucas decided something for his own little universe, but since the other policy, the one that manages are large "empire" of merchandising is equally supported, I don't feel bound to suddenly limit myself to one particular canon just to allow you to score cheap points in any debate.

[KirkSkyWalker]

Nice opinion. Facts please

Well, since you provided no facts to support your Tsunami/Super Soaker analogy, why should I?
..

Because my argument is self-evident regarding an analogy of an artificial device that projects a small stream of particles at high velocity, vs. a natural disaster which does the same, but at umpteen times more orders of magnitude.

In response, you claimed that the ion-cannon's particles were so much faster and denser than those of an ion-storm that is produced an equally or more devastating effect, however this claim is not self-evident.

Now if I have to explain something so basic and obvious, then you clearly don't know how to debate, and there's little hope in proceeding further.

As for ion-storm crippling a Borg ship, the same goes for a star's photsphere, which does not harm a UFP starship protected by multiphasic shielding (TNG:"Descent, P. II"). Likewise, Janeway said that all UFP starships have mutlphasic shielding since 2293.