Galactic Empire vs Federation redux

[sonofccn]

We already knew that different planets have different levels of protection, and the quote says nothing about what defenses Betazed had. You act like you prove some point again.

It is a "proof" against your complaint you made against Breetia that he wasn't taking into consideration planetary defenses. Namely some of those defenses will be subpar, that even on member worlds not all of them are heavily fortified.

You really love to play dumb until the other guy just walks away because you can't be bothered it seems like sometimes.

Sorry you feel that way.

We know shields are a standard defense, and cover entire planets as far back as TOS.

Yes shields are a standard defense and they could be generated planetary wide as far back as TOS, we don't know if planetary shields are standard however. It is not unreasonable an assumption but it is an assumption.

We know the Federation hands out ground based phasers and photon torpedos to shoot down ships.

Yes. I provided a quote proving that.

We know a defensive fleet of some sort are used by both Earth and Vulcan.

Yes through the full quanity and quality of the forces remains an unknown IIRC.

What ever Betazed had for defenses it was able to hold off a fleet for ten hours

Possibly or that may include troop landings/capturing of key points on the planet. We simply don't have that information.

and that leads to the question of where you proved a fleet in Star Wars carries the technology and firepower to even bring down TOS era defenses.

I wouldn't say proved which suggests a more harder stance than I intend on the subject, I merely voiced my opinion. If you are asking what I based such opinion on its a backtrack of running with 50-100 megaton effective yield for a 24th century photon torpedo vs ISDs that can spam 1 megaton bolts and tank hours worth of combat.

Playing dumb again. Please stop.

YOu have to have seen this quote a number of times

Yes I have seen it number of times. I've posted that quote a number of times. I am fully aware of planetary shielding existing since at least TOS era. Now there is a question on if planetary shields are standard defense, if they'd be considered under an obsolete defense system, as well as the strenght of the shield itself. As the episode shows a Constitution class starship has a chance of breaking through the shield, through with extreme risk at the emitter sight, at least on the weakest point. Which is fine for turning about a wayward ISD less so against a flotilla of hundred ships composed of Star Destroyers, heavy cruisers and Torpedo Spheres.

Star Destroyers don't have that kind of firepower, and some outdated planet based weapons in Star Trek are more powerful then the Death Star's superlaser.

A Taste of Armageddon (TOS season 1)?

DEPAUL: Screens firm, sir. Extremely powerful sonic vibrations. Decibels eighteen to the twelfth power. If those screens weren't up, we'd be totally disrupted by now.

We see TNG ships engage TOS ships, and the TNG ships are far superior

Yes. I never denied TNG was more advanced than TOS. Infact I am in full agreement with you on this score.

Then it can be ignored since the writers did.

Ignore what?

Be nice if someone would provide a quote or clip of what they are talking about.

Sure I'll see if can dig up a clip of lonely among us after work. Here's the quote until then.

(Back in normal uniform)
PICARD: But do you understand the basis of all this nonsense between them?
RIKER: No sir. I didn't understand that kind of hostility even when I studied Earth history.
PICARD: Really? Oh, yes, well these life forms feel such passionate hatred matters of custom, God concepts, even, strangely enough, economic systems

The way they managed 1000 years of peace was to just let the groups like the Trade Federation do whatever the hell they wanted while planets like Naboo were looted.

It seemed they were more corrupt than preachy pacifists. As well judging a 1000 year old organization by its final, bloated death years in the twilight of its existence may be somewhat harsh.

Then you have the horrible designs implying they are not battle tested. AT-TE should not have big glass windows in front of the pilot.

Yes horrible design but considering the militant Empire continued such things, relatively large open windows on the AT-ST for instance, its more a thing of that galaxy rather than a sign of pacifism.

Lastly the Republic seems to have had no military/police force beyond Jedi and corrupt and seemingly understaffed forces on each planet, and let criminals do almost what ever they pleased.

There seems to be no Republic wide police/military yes. That mostly appears to be done by individual member worlds and for police I really don't see any huge problem with that. Again I see incompetence and corruption rather than preachy peaceism to the root cause.

So you have no idea? Why use it as an example then since you can't quantify it?

Because I can quantify it within a loose order of magnitude, that a lower tier defense system could not possibly handle more than one Galaxy class starship and likely would be defeated by just that one.

Kirk's Enterprise was less powerful then the E-D remember.

Yes. And if you postulate Kirk's Enterprise is stronger than an ISD then your fine. I don't so I see things differently.

Then why use the episode as an example? You need to be able to quantify the event.

Because it exists? And I am attempting to quantify it to the best that the Episode will allow. Namely that whatever type of phasers and torpedoes it has one ship has a not completely impossible chance of overwhelming it.

Then you are claiming Star Trek humans are super-human bad asses because that is the only other alliterative.

I am saying the writers didn't intend for their uniforms to be the cause of their endurance and yes I am claiming super human endurance for that scene since they are surviving quite well for such tempatures as far as I understand such things. Over all through I'd just chalk it up as an outlier.

But somehow Worf using holograms to make a shield somehow is different?

No because I'm not making any claims on Worf's footwear. ;)

But seriously unless you are somehow trying to argue Worf used a forcefield generated by the holodeck in a wild west style program thats all I took as an example from the incident.

The car is solid, and deadly. Data grabs the car, and is not dragged even though he should have been holodeck or not.

Yes Data should have been dragged but that didn't happen. I lend such specialness to him being an Android rather than his shoes. And yes I did invoke that they were on a holodeck to try and "play loose" with the wonky physics as they were.

More then enough time to burn her arm..

Maybe. She runs out of the cargo bay fairly quick and IIRC she's wearing a sleeved uniform beneath the jacket but in any event its a far leap from should have been burned to uniforms are shielded.

I've as usual already provided the evidence in on screen feats, and as usual you just ask for something that you know does not exist because you can't extract the information from what the characters do and say. Writers rarely give a technical run down of every peace of equipment the characters have.

Yes you provided evidence of certain feats, feats I have not denied only your explanation for them. I do not see the need to assume unspoken, unstated technology, in this case forcefield equiped uniforms, in the examples you provided.

Dr. Crusher's coat is lit on fire, but she is not burnt.

her sleeve not her entire coat but yes I'm not disposed to saying her coat/uniform had thermal protective properties. I'm merely disposed in holding that up as evidence for forcefields.

Data is able to grab the bumper of a car that was trying to kill them in the holodeck when the safeties are off. Data just planted his feet, and held the car in place. This shoes impossibly good footing.

And again I'd rather chalk that up to Data being Data rather than some super advanced footwear.

Tom Paris endured hours in a -22 degree C environment.

Yes he did.

This shows the uniforms insulate against temperatures that would freeze human flesh, but also shows that exposed skin is seemingly protected somehow.

Or that the uniform is not what is enabling Paris to handle the tempatures.

Chakotey was able to hop around, over and stand on a rock surrounded by lava so hot it was flowing like water, and lots of vapors are in the air, and he does not lose his footing. The child seems to lose consciousness while passing through the vapors.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUWiDiD9 ... ure=relmfu

I'll check the link when I get home through if a child can stand close to the vapors and not burst into flames that shoots your thermal protection claim in the foot.

You already said holodeck doesn't count. Rather odd that the shield generator was made out of holograms, forcefields, and a com badge.

Well I am not trying to run physics off of a simulation merely pointing out a non starfleet uniform wearing individual generated a forcefield around himself.

Since the user is always at the center then the field must be projected from the user.

Or its shaped that way from its emitter which would be the simplier explanation rather than a cowboy costume comes with a force field generator.

You just proved the Federation can make protective fields that are skin tight.

Proved? We already knew this.

What relevance does this have beyond proving shields as part of the uniform possible?

That they have to work to shape the forcefield around themselves. Which would be odd since you are claim there is already a form fitting forcefield surronding them.

SOD tells us that people who are portrayed as engaging in a healthy life style by eating right and exercising are eating right and exercising.

Tuvok had the job of getting the Maquis into proper shape.

Worf is one of the characters who's uniform was padded. He is portrayed as extremely physically fit even for a Klingon. He is one of the top Klingon athletes in the Galaxy as I recall. Worf also has a thing about things being simple and practical as I recall.

As I recall Diana Troy had to practically disengage safeties on her replicator to get actual junk food, and there is no way she was hiding anything with that unitard.

Star Fleet is a paramilitary organization. They will logically have fitness standards for it's personnel.

If their clothing is padded it will likely serve an actual purpose beyond just looks. In the real world it is not unheard of for people to purchase armored clothing if they have reason to think something may try to kill them or are likely to face danger, and nearly every other power in Star Trek seems to put it's military in armor of some sort.

But the padding is in the uniform {Prop} not the Uniform {In-universe}, it is supposed to be muscle in-universe so there is no padding. Unless I misunderstood what you were talking about.

We see armors that protect the wearer from the environmental threats found on a Neutron Star, but it doesn't protect well against phasers as I recall.

Hirogen correct?

CHAKOTAY: Is your body armour designed to handle rapid pressure fluctuations?
ALPHA: It can defeat most hostile environments. I once tracked a silicon-based lifeform through the neutronium mantle of a collapsed star.
PARIS: I once tracked a mouse through Jefferies tube thirty two.

There is a Federation grunt who had something like half his armor seemingly burnt off his chest, and then died of blood loss. That supports the idea that Federation armor will protect against blasters.

Only if you assume he was shot with greater power than a blaster is capable of. Since we do not know the setting employed and that phasers/disrupters typically are not set to blow rocks to kibble setting that would be a presumptious assumption.

[Praeothmin]

The Hirogen "Neutron star mantle" quote is clearly an exaggeration...
How could Phasers damage such armor that possess the density to resist the crushing forces of a Neutron star?
Seriously, this is pure bullshit from the Hirogen Alpha, who was trying to impress the Voyager crew, probably hoping they were too dumb to know he was bullshitting them (based on Voyager's Captain's decisions, most likely)...

[Lucky]

The Hirogen "Neutron star mantle" quote is clearly an exaggeration...
How could Phasers damage such armor that possess the density to resist the crushing forces of a Neutron star?
Seriously, this is pure bullshit from the Hirogen Alpha, who was trying to impress the Voyager crew, probably hoping they were too dumb to know he was bullshitting them (based on Voyager's Captain's decisions, most likely)...

By your logic, phasers should not work on ships because they can enter and exit black holes, and travel at high factions of the speed of light and even faster then light speed in an Earth like atmosphere. You didn't think your argument through.

There is not a reason that it would be impossible for the Hirogen armor to protect itself and the wearer from the environment found in a Neutron star's mantel. It is simply a matter of miniaturizing technologies we see the UFP already has in most cases. Hirogen armor is not simply slabs of metal. It is an advanced power armor.

[sonofccn]

@ Lucky:

Watched your clip. I would say the alien managing to survive out on that rock in the middle of the lava stream disproves the need for Chakotey's uniform to be providing him protection. As to enviromental protection the alien was exposed far longer to the smoke than Chakotey as well was borderline hyperventilating in panic while Chakotey was relatively calm during the ordeal. All of which could explain the alien appearing to faint after it was picked up and Chakotey not.

[Praeothmin]

Lucky, if the armor did indeed protect against the effects of a Neutron Star's mantle, that means that species 8472, which can dent Voyager's armor and knock out Hirogen with a blow, hits with blows more powerful than the crushing force of a Neutron star, meaning humans, which aren't instantly pulverized when hit by a Hirogen which can go toe-to-toe with an 8472, are more resistent than Superman...

And I'm the one who didn't think my argument through?

Are you seriously supporting this wanked-out litteral interpretation of the Hirogen's comment?
Seriously?

[StarWarsStarTrek]

*sigh*

Even if you use Darkstar's calculations for firepower, reactor strength and shielding respective to the two universes, the Federation stands no chance in hell.

Too much of an industrial and numerical superiority. Picard:

Death Star II has diameter of 180 km. That is volume of 3 032 628 km^2. Assuming density of 2000 kg/m^2 (based on data from Darkstar's starship volumetrics page) we get 6.065 x 10e18 kg. Which is 2 021 752 000 times more than entire Starfleet tonnage in starships.

So, next time, please say "billions" of times. It doesn't make large difference to the point you are making, and is actually supportable.

Even ignoring his underestimation of the Death Star II's length, it is already outmassing the entire Federation starfleet by nine orders of magnitude. THIS IS A DISPARITY OF A BILLION TIMES! Such a gap has never been witnessed before in any military confrontation in history; historians attribute the Nazis' defeat, among other things, to being outproduced by the Allies as much as 2 to 4 to one in the 40's.

Now, it has been suggested that the second Death Star took a horrible strain on the Empire's resources and economy. First, there is zero evidence to support this; the fact that it was constructed:

1. In secret
2. In the outer rim

suggests the exact opposite. However, even if the second Death Star took up 99% of the Empire's budget...it would still beat out the Federation. The Empire [allegedly] strained itself greatly to build a station 2 billion times the mass of Starfleet; the Federation would be physically unable to do this, even if they pooled in all of the resources that they had over two decades. The fact that their starfleet, at the height of the Dominion War, was two billion times smaller than the second Death Star is evidence of this fact.

And again, the fact that the Death Star is not the equivalent to an ISD poundage for poundage is little more than a fine nitpick; even if the Death Star were ten times easier to construct per kilogram (even though I'd imagine the opposite to be true) than an ISD, it doesn't change the conclusion that one would reach upon doing the math, unless if the ratio of difficulty is by six or so orders of magnitude, which would be completely asinine.



-------


Can a galaxy class starship beat up a star destroyer? Even if we assume yes, can it beat up fifty? Even if you say yes, what about the one hundred thousand waiting behind it? Or the ten million waiting behind them? Or the billion that can be produced the next month?

The Empire vs Federation if we grant Trek tech superiority, is still the equivalent of the red army versus nazi germany, multiplied by a factor of a billion.

[Picard]

Except there is question of why exactly Empire built that station.

They may have industrial capacity to build million ISDs, but it doesn't mean they have crews to man them.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

Except there is question of why exactly Empire built that station.

They may have industrial capacity to build million ISDs, but it doesn't mean they have crews to man them.

Sure they do. 10 million ISDs would require a crew of around 270 billion, which is only a tiny fraction of the imperial population, and less than the "trillions of crew" already present in the navy. A simple wartime draft of 0.1% of the populace would do. Worst case scenario, they can use droid-manned ships with skeleton crews, or none at all.

[sonofccn]

Except there is question of why exactly Empire built that station.

They may have industrial capacity to build million ISDs, but it doesn't mean they have crews to man them.

Sure they do. 10 million ISDs would require a crew of around 270 billion, which is only a tiny fraction of the imperial population, and less than the "trillions of crew" already present in the navy. A simple wartime draft of 0.1% of the populace would do. Worst case scenario, they can use droid-manned ships with skeleton crews, or none at all.

And again I have to point out the Old Republic, from which the Empire grew out from, possesed no more then 10 trillion people in it. To reach trillions of crew for the navy, assuming they drafted 10% of the galactic population, would require the Outer Rim out number the Core system by population by a factor of ten. And some of that number would be ineligble for having the audacity of not being human so your overall population would be higher still in relation to the Old Republic.

In addition the quote I believe you are refering to:

The Imperial military is a massive organization, with tens of trillions of regular army soldiers, trillions of fleet crew, and a vast force of stormtroopers both cloned and conditioned. The sheer weight of numbers enables the Empire to simply overwhelm opponents in head-to-head battle.

Requires at least twice the population of the Old Republic to be under arms in the military in addition. That is not minor thing and can not just be brushed aside.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

And again I have to point out the Old Republic, from which the Empire grew out from, possesed no more then 10 trillion people in it.

And again I have to point out that the term "trillions" denotes any number within a range of three orders of magnitude, from one trillion to 999 trillion, and that "13 trillion" is still a value of trillions.

I would also have to point out that a 10% military membership in an extremely militarized and conscription society is hardly a stretch.

And I would also have to point out the fact that, through simple observation of the films and various character statements, the population of Coruscant alone is at least several hundred trillion, if not quadrillions, based on reasonable population densities extended to an entire planetary surface.

I was considering presenting to you a host of calculations for the above, but I perfectly understand that you would simply handwave the contradiction away as Star Wars being "pop corn sci fi" that only warrants logical and scientific analysis when it suits you.

[sonofccn]

And again I have to point out that the term "trillions" denotes any number within a range of three orders of magnitude, from one trillion to 999 trillion, and that "13 trillion" is still a value of trillions

I again have to explain that when someone says there are trillions of something, like common folk, they mean trillions. Not tens of trillions not hundreds of trillions.

I would also have to point out that a 10% military membership in an extremely militarized and conscription society is hardly a stretch.

It was in comparison to your .01% and you miss the point of the argument.

And I would also have to point out the fact that, through simple observation of the films and various character statements, the population of Coruscant alone is at least several hundred trillion, if not quadrillions, based on reasonable population densities extended to an entire planetary surface.

And I have to point out we have a canon statement, G-canon, on the population which trumps anything you think is "reasonable". There are no observation in the films which show a population number, no character states on the population except in my quote. You are deliberatly ignoring a G-canon quote, evidence, which you are completely aware of as I have informed you of this little quote what feels like dozens of times now.

I was considering presenting to you a host of calculations for the above, but I perfectly understand that you would simply handwave the contradiction away as Star Wars being "pop corn sci fi" that only warrants logical and scientific analysis when it suits you.

Well you could start you own Sci-Fi universe and make it all logical and scientific and what not but if you want to debate Star Wars you have to debate Star Wars not your fanfic of Star Wars. And in Star Wars G-canon there is a trillion on Coruscant and trillions of people in the Old Republic as a whole.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

And again I have to point out that the term "trillions" denotes any number within a range of three orders of magnitude, from one trillion to 999 trillion, and that "13 trillion" is still a value of trillions

I again have to explain that when someone says there are trillions of something, like common folk, they mean trillions. Not tens of trillions not hundreds of trillions.

Because you say so?

Is it [the universe, 12.5 or so billion years old] billions of years old, like scientific data, or is it thousands of years, like Biblical data? http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

I suppose that the author intends to discredit the idea of the universe being more than 10 billion years old.


healthcare.gov:

The law is already making a difference in the lives of millions of people like you.

Does this imply that only 9.99 million people in the US are affected by health care?

It was in comparison to your .01% and you miss the point of the argument.

No, you are missing the point of the argument. Your knee jerk reaction to the quotation I present is to find every possible manner to dismiss it; yet your own C canon quotation of the Death Star equaling far less than it obviously should is heeded as gospel.

You even dismiss the primary canon, Geonosis acceleration figure because it is "illogical", yet have no issue with claiming that Coruscant only hosts a trillion people while at the same time being a densely populated city covering the planetary surface, even though these two ideas are completely irreconcilable with one another.

And I have to point out we have a canon statement, G-canon, on the population which trumps anything you think is "reasonable".

My god, this is pathetically dishonest of you. Do you realize that you dismissed primary canon observations on Geonosis on the grounds of not making sense? And now you are attempting to do a 180 degree turn on your own policy just to suit your own ends?

There are no observation in the films which show a population number, no character states on the population except in my quote.

Yeah, actually, there is. The pilot states in TPM, when Anakin sees Coruscant for the first time, that the entire city is covered in a planet.

You are deliberatly ignoring a G-canon quote, evidence, which you are completely aware of as I have informed you of this little quote what feels like dozens of times now.

Actually, you are completely ignoring the primary canon fact that Coruscant is a city-planet, and that it is significantly more crowded than ten New York Cities packed into one.

Well you could start you own Sci-Fi universe and make it all logical and scientific and what not but if you want to debate Star Wars you have to debate Star Wars not your fanfic of Star Wars. And in Star Wars G-canon there is a trillion on Coruscant and trillions of people in the Old Republic as a whole.

So in other words, you have no intent of analyzing either series logically or scientifically, but will instead treat it as though it were loony toons, and ignore all holes in your own theories and interpretations on a whim.

Of course, you don't even have the integrity to stick with your own canon policy, because you openly dismiss a G canon observation on the basis of being "illogical", and you just spent a whole lot of time dismissing a C canon source on the basis of being illogical. You take all statements as gospel when it suits you; you discredit any source on the slightest whim when it suits you.

[sonofccn]

Because you say so?

Is it [the universe, 12.5 or so billion years old] billions of years old, like scientific data, or is it thousands of years, like Biblical data? http://www.geraldschroeder.com/AgeUniverse.aspx

So presenting a quote of someone saying billions for 12.5, when I was talking about 10 trillion for trillions, while arguing against thousands is proof trillions should be taking as meaning as anything between 2 and 999? Why stop there? Why not a 1000 trillion? It can still be expressed. Or how about a billion trillion? Once we go down this road anything really is far game.

The law is already making a difference in the lives of millions of people like you.

Does this imply that only 9.99 million people in the US are affected by health care?

The quote doesn't say we are making the difference in the millions of commonfolk of America. It simply says it is making a difference in the lives of millions.

No, you are missing the point of the argument. Your knee jerk reaction to the quotation I present is to find every possible manner to dismiss it; yet your own C canon quotation of the Death Star equaling far less than it obviously should is heeded as gospel.

Because I have a G-canon quote versus your C-canon for the former and the latter I have a C-canon quote to no actual evidence. Merely your speculation which doesn't conform to the demostrated universe.

My god, this is pathetically dishonest of you. Do you realize that you dismissed primary canon observations on Geonosis on the grounds of not making sense? And now you are attempting to do a 180 degree turn on your own policy just to suit your own ends?

I haven't said anything about Geonosis, and if there is a scene where we see trillions on Geonosis then I will accept the superior cannon. However unless I missed a big crowd scene and you can only try and make a calculation based upon an impatial view we observed. One that can be overridden if it conflicts with canon evidence.

Yeah, actually, there is. The pilot states in TPM, when Anakin sees Coruscant for the first time, that the entire city is covered in a planet.

Yes he does. He doesn't give a population figure or an average population density.

Actually, you are completely ignoring the primary canon fact that Coruscant is a city-planet, and that it is significantly more crowded than ten New York Cities packed into one.

You are making an assumption on population density. Certainly the slum areas we see are crowded but we have way of knowing if that extends across the surface of the planet. It would not be a bad assumption in the absence of evidence to run with say New York city's population density but if we have a canon source you can't overrule it with anything but a canon source.

So in other words, you have no intent of analyzing either series logically or scientifically, but will instead treat it as though it were loony toons, and ignore all holes in your own theories and interpretations on a whim.

I am suggesting we follow what is actually in the universe otherwise we are no longer debating impartially. Once we simply start replacing or discarding things based solely on our whims of what we think fits things become a choatic mess.

For example you get very frustrated I contend the death star doesn't break down into millions of star destroyers, based upon direct c-canon and observance of the lack of such fleets in G-canon, and my refusal to use science to "reasonbly" conclude the Empire's industrial ability. Well to me the death stars don't make sense, not at their scale. The rest of the universe is fairly conistent about fleet sizes in the thousands of star destroyers not millions and if we can just discard canon material why then lets just say the death stars are smaller. Say sixteen kilometers or whatever is needed.

Of course, you don't even have the integrity to stick with your own canon policy, because you openly dismiss a G canon observation on the basis of being "illogical",

I say that for one example with in essense involved Dooku teleporting off screen. He isn't moving fast when we can see him, what does he have standard and is only used to automatic or something?

and you just spent a whole lot of time dismissing a C canon source on the basis of being illogical.

In relation to G-canon which is the difference. I look internally does it make sense in the universe or not, in this case is it logical for the Old Republic to exist as an insignifigant rounding error in comparison to the Outer Rim, you on the other hand make assumption, perhaps good assumptions but assumptions, based on nothing canon and demand we ignore canon material.

You take all statements as gospel when it suits you; you discredit any source on the slightest whim when it suits you.

I follow the evidence and the tiered canon system. Canon, any canon, is gospel in comparison to your calcuations. It is not gospel in between itself merely weighted differently depending if it is from the EU or not. That means yes sometimes C-canon has to get the ax.

[StarWarsStarTrek]

So presenting a quote of someone saying billions for 12.5, when I was talking about 10 trillion for trillions, while arguing against thousands is proof trillions should be taking as meaning as anything between 2 and 999? Why stop there? Why not a 1000 trillion? It can still be expressed. Or how about a billion trillion? Once we go down this road anything really is far game.

...because once you get the thousands of trillions, the correct term would be quadrillions? And that this does not apply to 999 trillion?

The quote doesn't say we are making the difference in the millions of commonfolk of America. It simply says it is making a difference in the lives of millions.

And my point is that, according to you, the Obama administration only believes that health care will affect around 10 million Americans, and that the other 290 million will be completely unaccounted for. Your definition of "millions" is highly suspect.

Because I have a G-canon quote versus your C-canon for the former and the latter I have a C-canon quote to no actual evidence.

And my G canon evidence on Geonosis is being countered by no actual evidence, merely your speculation based on an imaginary camera and that it is "illogical".

Merely your speculation which doesn't conform to the demostrated universe.

Actually, the size of the Death Star is observable in the movies, and math being done of this observation is hardly "speculation", as the term typically connotes.

Besides, you had earlier claimed that the Death Star was an enormous strain on the Empire's budget. You then did a heal-faced turn in the very same post, arguing instead that the Death Star was but a "drop in the bucket" for the Empire (and not realizing its implications).

So either the Death Star proves that the imperial industry is unfathomably greater than that of the entire Borg Collective, or it is really, magically, piss easy to build ("a drop in the bucket"), and I can thus swarm you with them on a whim. Take your pick, but stick with it.

I haven't said anything about Geonosis, and if there is a scene where we see trillions on Geonosis then I will accept the superior cannon. However unless I missed a big crowd scene and you can only try and make a calculation based upon an impatial view we observed. One that can be overridden if it conflicts with canon evidence.

(talking about acceleration incident).

Yes he does. He doesn't give a population figure or an average population density.

Except that we have lower limits for the population density of a city.

You are making an assumption on population density. Certainly the slum areas we see are crowded but we have way of knowing if that extends across the surface of the planet. It would not be a bad assumption in the absence of evidence to run with say New York city's population density but if we have a canon source you can't overrule it with anything but a canon source.

Wait...those were slum areas? Since when do slum areas have billions of airspeeders now?

Besides, look at the planet from orbit. The lighting is massive across the half of the planet we see, and the structures can be seen from space. Even if the other half of the planet were completely uninhabited, the statistics would still make the one trillion figure look laughable.

I am suggesting we follow what is actually in the universe otherwise we are no longer debating impartially. Once we simply start replacing or discarding things based solely on our whims of what we think fits things become a choatic mess.

This is EXACTLY what you are doing with Geonosis. You make no attempt to refute my calculations, but rather argue that it is "illogical", base on an arbitrary camera, and completely ignoring the fact that we visibly see Dooku's assistant push the throttle before the ship accelerates.

You also ignore the secondary consequences of the scene you yourself brought up involving hyperspace calcs; Padme ship crosses the rings of Geonosis in less than two seconds.

Or the X wings crossing Yavin Prime.

For example you get very frustrated I contend the death star doesn't break down into millions of star destroyers, based upon direct c-canon and observance of the lack of such fleets in G-canon, and my refusal to use science to "reasonbly" conclude the Empire's industrial ability. Well to me the death stars don't make sense, not at their scale. The rest of the universe is fairly conistent about fleet sizes in the thousands of star destroyers not millions and if we can just discard canon material why then lets just say the death stars are smaller. Say sixteen kilometers or whatever is needed.

And this is why SDN.net does not take you seriously.

The primary difference between the pro Wars side and the pro Trek side is that the former adheres to a scientific analysis of both universes; the latter does not.

By your own admittance, your quote about the Death Star equaling a score of sector groups does not make sense. Since you dismissed a primary canon incident on the basis of not making sense, I have every right to dismiss this one on the basis of not making sense and being a "nonessential outlier."

...or, of course, we can rationalize this incident by concluding that a "score" of sector groups is really several hundred of them, and that they consist of not only the fleet, but also giant defense stations, torpedo spheres and ground forces.

I say that for one example with in essense involved Dooku teleporting off screen. He isn't moving fast when we can see him, what does he have standard and is only used to automatic or something?

Wait, are you concluding that, if a ship or characters move off screen, we should conclude that they teleported? Why not that they simply moved very, very fast, and that these calculations just happen to fit with the ICS?

In relation to G-canon which is the difference. I look internally does it make sense in the universe or not, in this case is it logical for the Old Republic to exist as an insignifigant rounding error in comparison to the Outer Rim, you on the other hand make assumption, perhaps good assumptions but assumptions, based on nothing canon and demand we ignore canon material.

Which I what I am doing. In the universe, does it make sense for a 160 kilometer space station to only equal one hundred frigates? Nope.

I follow the evidence and the tiered canon system. Canon, any canon, is gospel in comparison to your calcuations.

So by this, your hyperspace calculations, which imply a 100 light year universe, are in contradiction with the galaxy being “modest sized”. Ergo, you are wrong.

It is not gospel in between itself merely weighted differently depending if it is from the EU or not. That means yes sometimes C-canon has to get the ax.

Except that you dismiss my C canon based on your calculations, and you dismiss G canon based on not making sense.

[sonofccn]

...because once you get the thousands of trillions, the correct term would be quadrillions? And that this does not apply to 999 trillion?

But you could express quadrillions in trillions which is my point. By your logic since 999 trillions is trillions then a 1000 trillions is still trillions.

And my point is that, according to you, the Obama administration only believes that health care will affect around 10 million Americans

No the quote says its has already affected aproximatly 10 million Americans, "already has" implies they expect it to actually do more in the future. Simply put that quote is not remotely comparable to the one I gave you.

And my G canon evidence on Geonosis is being countered by no actual evidence, merely your speculation based on an imaginary camera and that it is "illogical".

That Dooku thing again? Its one example based upon the nonsense of Dooku trying to escape by going slow, accelerating then decelerating. Now if we saw him do this then yes you would have a point. As it is you are assuming he decides to act like a blooming idiot there is a difference.

Actually, the size of the Death Star is observable in the movies, and math being done of this observation is hardly "speculation", as the term typically connotes.

Size? yes. How it breaks down into less vessels is however "speculation".

Besides, you had earlier claimed that the Death Star was an enormous strain on the Empire's budget.

I argued that being secret and remote, when fully supported by ones industrial base, isn't proof something is taking only a small insignifigant amount of resources. I contend the death star projects were fully supplied by the Empire, that however much was needed would be provided. You have produced nothing to the countrary but empty assertion and mockery.

You then did a heal-faced turn in the very same post, arguing instead that the Death Star was but a "drop in the bucket" for the Empire (and not realizing its implications).

Here

So twenty times that would be what? 480 Star Destroyers, including the 900 meter Victory class, and 32,000 combat vessels which can run from strike cruisers to Carrack light cruisers to frigates to small patrol vessels. A tad short of a million.

And yes I do understand this suggests the Empire could mass produced the death stars, assuming it hasn't been overruled by later canon, but it perfectly illustrates the disconect between DS and the convential fleet.

So I quite plainly stated the implication all the way back when I first brought the quote to your attention. Nor did I suggest otherwise in the Total War thread, the nearest I could find was me saying the military was expanding as fast as it could while the Death Star was sucking down resources which was me acknowledging that without the DS project the Imperial production would have gone up. It does not mean I'm arguing the death star took up their entire budget.

To be blunt I don't care if you think the Empire can pwn the Federation. Has trillions or quadillions of people in it. I'm out. Have fun SWST.