Galactic Empire vs Federation redux

[StarWarsStarTrek]

But you could express quadrillions in trillions which is my point. By your logic since 999 trillions is trillions then a 1000 trillions is still trillions.

You're grasping at some slippery straws here, and you know it. You completely ignored the entire thrust of my argument; 1000 trillion would be three orders of magnitude above a trillion, and therefore connote a quadrillion instead. But 999 trillion is still within the realm of "trillions".

No the quote says its has already affected aproximatly 10 million Americans, "already has" implies they expect it to actually do more in the future. Simply put that quote is not remotely comparable to the one I gave you.

ROFLAMO. Go ahead and email the author of the page, and ask him if he means "only ten million" when he says "millions of people". You know perfectly well that you will get a negative as an answer.

That Dooku thing again? Its one example based upon the nonsense of Dooku trying to escape by going slow, accelerating then decelerating. Now if we saw him do this then yes you would have a point. As it is you are assuming he decides to act like a blooming idiot there is a difference.

I don't give a damn whether we see it or not. It can be extrapolated within a very precise margin, beyond a shadow of a doubt, and you have conceded this issue. Your only argument is is the EXTREMELY HYPOCRITICAL bullshit that you can dismiss G canon evidence on the basis of this nonsense of it not making sense to you.

Size? yes. How it breaks down into less vessels is however "speculation".

And your dismissal of the Geonosis incident on the basis of not making "sense" to you isn't now?

I argued that being secret and remote, when fully supported by ones industrial base, isn't proof something is taking only a small insignifigant amount of resources. I contend the death star projects were fully supplied by the Empire, that however much was needed would be provided. You have produced nothing to the countrary but empty assertion and mockery.

But you then admit that it was using an insignificant amount of resources; but a "drop in the bucket" for the Empire.

And yes I do understand this suggests the Empire could mass produced the death stars, assuming it hasn't been overruled by later canon,

Case in point, by yourself, again.


Conclusion

1. sonofccn admits that the Empire can mass produce Death Stars, and therefore have a large supply of planet busters, of which can eliminate the Federation from the galactic plane within weeks or months without any defenses being able to stop them, and of which are invulnerable to any conventional attack.

2. sonofccn provides us with a quote disproving his own argument that planetary shields are an extremely rare phenomena in the Star Wars galaxy. But rather, all "modern worlds" possess one, and thus are invulnerable to any Federation attack.

3. sonofccn argues that to dismiss a C canon statement with fan "calculations", or speculation, without a piece of evidence yourself, is ban worthy, but then turns against his own gospel to dismiss the Geonosis incident on the basis of being an "outlier" and not making "sense" to him, even though he admits that my calculations are accurate, and even though he provides not a shred of counter-evidence himself.

4. sonofccn argues that the Star Wars galaxy is only 100 light years in length, in spite of being a scientific impossibility, and in spite of being in grievous contradiction with the "modest sized galaxy" quote that he himself cites as an argument!

5. sonofccn drops any argument against Luke Skywalker snapping his neck through a camera with the Force.

6. sonofccn drops any argument against Centerpoint station.

7. sonofccn drops his parroted argument of MTL's yielding only one megaton, and hilariously fails to note that, even based on this, an imperial star destroyer would actually be around even in relative firepower/shield strength with a galaxy-class starship...

8. ...and sonofccn himself admits that the imperial starfleet consists of millions of vessels, thus outnumbering the Federation starfleet by a very large margin.

9. sonofccn openly admits that his methodology does not fit with scientific facts, and rather argues that science is not important when technically analyze either universe in a vs debate context.

[Lucky]

Star Destroyers don't have that kind of firepower, and some outdated planet based weapons in Star Trek are more powerful then the Death Star's superlaser.

Please provide evidence for this wank-tastic claim, Lucky...
Seriously...

Kor did some calculations on the disruptor in question.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... =12&t=2288

This site needs smilie faces.

[Lucky]

It is a "proof" against your complaint you made against Breetia that he wasn't taking into consideration planetary defenses. Namely some of those defenses will be subpar, that even on member worlds not all of them are heavily fortified.

And Sub par in this case could mean being able to laugh off the Death Star given what we see in TOS Do you really want me to dig up the threads you must have been to busy to read? Even if they just have a shield like we see in Whom Gods Destroy, and ground based photon torpedo launchers and ground phasers it would be far more dangerous then anything similar then we see in Star Wars. Your proved nothing beyond even tiny outposts may be a treat to a Imperial invasion fleet.

Photon Torpedos are photon torpedos

From what we see most Star Wars planets don't even have defenses that do anything until the enemy lands troops, and the troops are kilometers away.

Sorry you feel that way.

Well, as the above shows you failed to support your point. You say that Star Trek Planetary defenses won't be good enough, but you showed that even the weakest defenses we see in Star Trek are better then some of the best defenses we see in Star Wars.

Yes shields are a standard defense and they could be generated planetary wide as far back as TOS, we don't know if planetary shields are standard however. It is not unreasonable an assumption but it is an assumption.

There is evidence in the capabilities of their weapons, and the results of planetary bombardments.

SULU: Captain, I've plotted the storm's path. 

KIRK: Main screen projection. 

SULU: On its present course, it will hit Memory Alpha planetoid as it did us. 

KIRK: Lieutenant, try and warn Memory Alpha of the proximity of that phenomena. Give me an ETA for its possible impact. 

CHEKOV: I cannot, sir. It has the ability to change speed. 

UHURA: Sir, I'm unable to establish contact with the planetoid. I'm hailing on all frequencies. No response. 

SPOCK: It is of little consequence, Captain. Memory Alpha has no protective shields. 

KIRK: No shields? 

SPOCK: None, Captain. When the library complex was assembled, shielding was considered inappropriate to its totally academic purpose. Since the information on the Memory planet is available to everyone, special protection was deemed unnecessary. 

KIRK: Wonderful. I hope the storm is aware of that rationale.

Just to back up the fact that shields covering large areas are a standard defense for the UFP.

WORF: Sir, according to my calculations, a solar probe launched from either the Klingon ship or the planet's surface will take eleven seconds to reach the sun. However, since we do not have an exact point of origin, it will take us between eight and fifteen seconds to lock our weapons onto it.

Photon Torpedos have light minute ranges, and are faster then light, and we have examples of plasma torpedos traveling flt.

WORF: We're modifying class one probes so they become resonators. We will then use torpedo casings to protect them once they begin burrowing beneath the surface.

If a shield does not cover the entire planet then a torpedo could just burrow under it and explode

FARALLON: We'd have to configure the torpedo very carefully. The shape of the shock wave would be critical. But it could work.

On top of all that Photon Torpedos can be made into shaped charges somehow.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/File:Sa ... tacked.jpg
Now clearly there must have been a shield protecting the city and the academy

Yes. I provided a quote proving that.

Which means that destroying the attacking fleet would be rather easily.

http://images.wikia.com/starwars/images ... Ryloth.jpg

Yes through the full quanity and quality of the forces remains an unknown IIRC.

The defense fleets have to be able to pose a credible threat to expected threats, and post Borg(BOBW?) the fleet at Earth was vastly up graded to include ships like Galaxy class and Prometheus class it seems.

Possibly or that may include troop landings/capturing of key points on the planet. We simply don't have that information.

SISKO: According to initial reports, the invasion force must have come from somewhere in the Calandra Sector. 

DAX: Did Starfleet Intelligence know anything about the buildup? 

WORF: No. They believed Calandra was too far from the Dominion supply lines to be a threat. 

SISKO: There's plenty of blame to go around. The Tenth Fleet was supposed to be protecting Betazed and its outlying colonies, but it was caught out of position on a training exercise. What's worse, Betazed's own defence systems are obsolete and undermanned. The planet was theirs in less than ten hours. 

KIRA: With Betazed in the hands of the Jem'Hadar, the Dominion is in a position to threaten Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, Alpha Centauri. 

DAX: If we ever needed a new ally, it's right now.

Landing troops would takes minutes with transporters in strategic places once shields are down.

I don't see how Betazed Could have been able to hold out for nearly 10 hours if they only had ground based weapons, orbital weapons and theater shields.

I wouldn't say proved which suggests a more harder stance than I intend on the subject, I merely voiced my opinion. If you are asking what I based such opinion on its a backtrack of running with 50-100 megaton effective yield for a 24th century photon torpedo vs ISDs that can spam 1 megaton bolts and tank hours worth of combat.

I was asking what you based your opinion on.

If an ISD can easily spit out 1 megaton blasts then I do not see how the asteroid chase in TESB makes sense, or the fact that fighter grade energy weapons are a threat.

The 50-100 megaton yield is from the Voyager episode "Rise" correct? That is actually a lower limit because the crew was setting the yield to just enough boom, and there is evidence that the maximum yields are actually higher.

There is evidence that Republic Attack Cruisers could be disable with just 12 seconds of combat with three Separatist Dreadnoughts. I'd like to know what source you are using for the hours?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZHtUxOD4L8

Yes I have seen it number of times. I've posted that quote a number of times. I am fully aware of planetary shielding existing since at least TOS era. Now there is a question on if planetary shields are standard defense, if they'd be considered under an obsolete defense system, as well as the strenght of the shield itself. As the episode shows a Constitution class starship has a chance of breaking through the shield, through with extreme risk at the emitter sight, at least on the weakest point. Which is fine for turning about a wayward ISD less so against a flotilla of hundred ships composed of Star Destroyers, heavy cruisers and Torpedo Spheres.

I take it Torpedo Spheres are extremely rare? I seem to recall them being designed to bring down shields on planets, but planets seem to rarely turn shields on until the attacker has landed troops.

__________
Then you know that TOS shield designs are not as good as TNG shield designs.

WORF: Shields are up. 

K'EHLEYR: Better lock in phasers. This may be the only chance you get. 

CLANCEY: Intercept course laid in. 

PICARD: Hold this position. Let's see if they've spotted us. Magnification, one hundred. Mister Data? 

DATA: Sensors show life forms aboard, but I am unable to ascertain whether they are awake or dormant. However, the vessel's propulsion systems are inactive, so I would hypothesize that the crew is asleep. 
(So they get shot at) 

DATA: However, I could be in error. 

WORF: Shields holding. 

RIKER: They've cloaked themselves. 

K'EHLEYR: Well, Captain you've had your chance. 
(a few minutes later, La Forge enters) 

LAFORGE: Transferring Engineering to the Bridge. 

PICARD: Can you find them? 

LAFORGE: I think so. Those old shields weren't particularly efficient at blocking gamma ray output. If I can tune the sensors to a particular band of. There. Got them. Transferring coordinates to helm. 

PICARD: Intercept. Warp two. 

CLANCEY: Warp two, sir. 

K'EHLEYR: Captain let them die like Klingons, in battle. They deserve that much. 

WORF: Captain. I have another option.

Captain's log, stardate 42901.3. Despite their cloaking shields, we have located the Klingon vessel, T'Ong. In an effort to avoid further confrontation, we're about to implement the option presented by Lieutenant Worf.

In the context of In the Pale Moon Light obsolete simply means not as good as modern systems.

A Constitution class would likely kill everything at the emitter site, and everything at the emitter site was in a rather solidly built building that might be likened to a bunker, and had its own life support system.. Everyone would be killed more quickly then they could be transported off the planet. That is getting near Star level firepower there you know.

SULU: There's been an explosion on Elba Two! 

SCOTT: Point nine five! 

MCCOY: It must've wiped out everything. 

SCOTT: Immediate probe. Is the force field in place, Mister Sulu? 

SULU: Yes, sir. Solidly. 

UHURA: (at Spock's station) Life continues to exist on the planet. 

MCCOY: Got to break through it somehow. 

SCOTT: Doctor, I told you we couldn't do it without killing everyone in the asylum dome. 

MCCOY: I know it, Scotty. 

SCOTT: Well, there's one last thing we might try. Perhaps the ship's phasers can cut through a section of the force field at its weakest point. Where did you say that was located, Mister Sulu? 

SULU: On the far side of the planet, Mister Scott. 

MCCOY: Will it leave a margin of safety for the people below? 

SULU: Yes, sir. 

SCOTT: Prepare to change orbital path, Mister Sulu. 

SULU: Orbital co-ordinates released, sir. 

SCOTT: Break synchronous orbit. Come to course one four mark six eight. 

(after a few moments) 

SULU: Course one four mark six eight. Synchronous orbit re-established, sir. 

SCOTT: Ship's phasers to narrow beam. 

SULU: Ship's phasers ready, sir. 

SCOTT: Let's punch a hole in it. Full power. Another blast, full power. 

SULU: Force field still holding, sir.

I would like proof any ship from star wars can focus the power from its weapons like a Federation ship.

A Taste of Armageddon (TOS season 1)?

DEPAUL: Screens firm, sir. Extremely powerful sonic vibrations. Decibels eighteen to the twelfth power. If those screens weren't up, we'd be totally disrupted by now.

Kor did some calculations on the disruptor in question.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... =12&t=2288

Your point is what? Everything vibrates on the quantum level last time I check.

For a more practical example, the Enterprise-D was able to drill in a very controlled fashion about half way through an Earth like planet in about 20 seconds. One would expect the weapons intended to protect a major Federation Planet to be at least as capable because power would be less of an issue.

Then there is the pre-Federation verteron array that was a faster then light particle beam.

Ignore what?

Really bad writing that seems to have been ignored later on?

Sure I'll see if can dig up a clip of lonely among us after work. Here's the quote until then.

(Back in normal uniform)

PICARD: But do you understand the basis of all this nonsense between them?

RIKER: No sir. I didn't understand that kind of hostility even when I studied Earth history.

PICARD: Really? Oh, yes, well these life forms feel such passionate hatred matters of custom, God concepts, even, strangely enough, economic systems

I can honestly say that I have personally felt the same way as Riker when reading Earth history.

I assume something is lost when reading it as a small excerpt of a script?

It seemed they were more corrupt than preachy pacifists. As well judging a 1000 year old organization by its final, bloated death years in the twilight of its existence may be somewhat harsh.

They were unwilling to police their own borders from pirates.

Yes horrible design but considering the militant Empire continued such things, relatively large open windows on the AT-ST for instance, its more a thing of that galaxy rather than a sign of pacifism.

The Empire just went for scary over practical.

The Republic at least tried to make practical weapons. The Empire built things meant to be scary.

There seems to be no Republic wide police/military yes. That mostly appears to be done by individual member worlds and for police I really don't see any huge problem with that. Again I see incompetence and corruption rather than preachy peaceism to the root cause.

The Republic had no force to fight pirates because the planet based forces were to busy dealing with planet based problem. There is no reason for the Republic to not have a force to fight an existing enemy. The idea of 200,000 troops was considered an ungodly huge army remember.

How is the Republic suppose to handle interplanetary crimes? No planet seems willing to lift a finger to help another member.

One thing I find very disturbing is that parents tell their kids to go run over to the strange transport that just landed(it belonged to Darth Maul) in a Galaxy where slavery seems to be common.

Because I can quantify it within a loose order of magnitude, that a lower tier defense system could not possibly handle more than one Galaxy class starship and likely would be defeated by just that one.

Actually if the mercenaries had torpedos they could easily have a similar or better level of firepower to a Galaxy class. What is the mercenary's ship capable of?

You don't know how they planned to destroy the outpost. You only have a projected timeframe for the event.

In order to know what the mercs ship can do you need to be able to quantify the outpost's defenses, but you can't because we never saw them in action.

What do you hope to prove by comparing an outpost that everyone thinks has nothing to guard to the defenses of a planet where the Federation actually cares?

Yes. And if you postulate Kirk's Enterprise is stronger than an ISD then your fine. I don't so I see things differently.

So an obsolete ship is more then a match for an ISD, but obsolete defenses that could hold off a conni are worthless against an ISD?

Fleets in Star Wars are tiny. They generally consist of 1 to 3 ships followed by 3 or 4 troop transports, and never consider orbital bombardment an option.

Because it exists? And I am attempting to quantify it to the best that the Episode will allow. Namely that whatever type of phasers and torpedoes it has one ship has a not completely impossible chance of overwhelming it.

The problem is that the things you are trying to quantify have no quantifiable feats, and that said defenses are meant to defend something almost no one cares about. For all we know the shield was only intended to protect against bad weather.

I am saying the writers didn't intend for their uniforms to be the cause of their endurance and yes I am claiming super human endurance for that scene since they are surviving quite well for such tempatures as far as I understand such things. Over all through I'd just chalk it up as an outlier.

That causes a different problem for the Empire then because most Star Trek humans have jedi like psychic powers, relativistic to possibly faster then light reaction times, are able to withstand extreme temperatures without damage, and temporal manipulation powers

No because I'm not making any claims on Worf's footwear. ;)

But seriously unless you are somehow trying to argue Worf used a forcefield generated by the holodeck in a wild west style program thats all I took as an example from the incident.

As much as I hate to say it, but all I can find that isn't a hologram and forcefields in the shield generator Worf builds is the energy cell from the communicator, but I admit I may have missed something.

http://www.chakoteya.net/NextGen/234.htm

Yes Data should have been dragged but that didn't happen. I lend such specialness to him being an Android rather than his shoes. And yes I did invoke that they were on a holodeck to try and "play loose" with the wonky physics as they were.

Even if we exclude the fact Data didn't fall over, he still had to have absurdly good traction on the soles of his shoes. How much does Data weigh?

Maybe. She runs out of the cargo bay fairly quick and IIRC she's wearing a sleeved uniform beneath the jacket but in any event its a far leap from should have been burned to uniforms are shielded.

You need to read more carefully. I did not say that was evidence Dr. Crusher's uniform was shielded. I said it was evidence the uniform had protective properties. We already have fabrics in the real world that can protect someone from heat/fire like we see Dr. Crusher's uniform and coat do for her. It isn't some outlandish Sci-Fi technology, and you are using a false dilemma fallacy.

Scroll down, and you will see Dr. Crusher's arm get shot, and the resulting fire. There is a rather impressive looking explosion when the beam hits, but that could be a quirk of the setting used.
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWground-newphas1.html

Yes you provided evidence of certain feats, feats I have not denied only your explanation for them. I do not see the need to assume unspoken, unstated technology, in this case forcefield equiped uniforms, in the examples you provided.

Then explain them without fields being used. Explain how exposed skin is protected against -22 degrees C, or how they walk through steam, and likely poisonous gases without being bothered by it..

her sleeve not her entire coat but yes I'm not disposed to saying her coat/uniform had thermal protective properties. I'm merely disposed in holding that up as evidence for forcefields.

If you are not going to read my posts do not respond to them.

Dr. crusher's coat sleeve is part of her coat. If any part of her coat is lit on fire then her coat was lit on fire.

I said that Dr.crusher not being burnt was evidence that the uniforms are made from protective fire retardant materials.

And again I'd rather chalk that up to Data being Data rather than some super advanced footwear.

Data was not touching the floor(or what ever pasted for the floor at that moment) of the holodeck. Data's shoes were touching the floor, and that takes Data out of the equation beyond adding weight..

Yes he did.

The fact remains that Tom had his hands and head exposed the entire time, and it makes logical sense for Star Fleet uniforms to be climate controlled because of the different environments member races come from..

Interestingly, B'Elanna did not do as well because Klingons like Vulcans don't do well in the cold.

Or that the uniform is not what is enabling Paris to handle the tempatures.

If it was not the uniform then Star Wars has no chance in hell of defeating the United Federation of PLanets because humans are so powerful.

Precognitive powers for humans and other races are so common no one thinks anything of them.

Being able to read the backs of cards is so common no one cares about it.

Old out of shape doctors run at least 60 miles an hour.
http://www.st-v-sw.net/weblog/2006/09/l ... bones.html

You're claiming Star Trek humans are able to ignore temperatures that would kill or at least hurt extremely badly real world and Star Wars humans.

Then there is the temporal manipulation such as when Picard dodged a phaser beam.

You have nobodies like La,Forge having superhuman reflexes.

And you wonder why I think unmentioned technology is being used. Star Trek gets rather absurd if you don't assume there is unmentioned technology.

I'll check the link when I get home through if a child can stand close to the vapors and not burst into flames that shoots your thermal protection claim in the foot.

THe child goes limp when passing through the vapors, and even if it was just steam it is odd for a human to be able to simply ignore it.

Using the child to judge the temperature of the air and lava is a bad idea as we know little to nothing about its race. Vulcans and Klingons for example don't deal with cold as well as humans can deal with cold, but seem to love dry(Vulcans at least) and hot environments

Well I am not trying to run physics off of a simulation merely pointing out a non starfleet uniform wearing individual generated a forcefield around himself.

THe problem is that the only thing not from the holodeck was the power source, but you want to ignore Data's shoes just because.

Or its shaped that way from its emitter which would be the simplier explanation rather than a cowboy costume comes with a force field generator.

When do we ever get an emitter identified?

I highly doubt that is a good option at best because such shields are often jury-rigged.

That they have to work to shape the forcefield around themselves. Which would be odd since you are claim there is already a form fitting forcefield surronding them.

Never claimed that.

I've been picturing vaguely defined fields.

But the padding is in the uniform {Prop} not the Uniform {In-universe}, it is supposed to be muscle in-universe so there is no padding. Unless I misunderstood what you were talking about.

The padding doesn't look like muscle to me. The padding looks like padding to me. It's not like Star Fleet would want their armor to look like armor if it could be helped after all.

Hirogen correct?

CHAKOTAY: Is your body armour designed to handle rapid pressure fluctuations?

ALPHA: It can defeat most hostile environments. I once tracked a silicon-based lifeform through the neutronium mantle of a collapsed star.

PARIS: I once tracked a mouse through Jefferies tube thirty two.

What is your point? Alpha is asked a question, and he answers it. Why should we assume that the armor is not as capable as the user claims?

Only if you assume he was shot with greater power than a blaster is capable of. Since we do not know the setting employed and that phasers/disrupters typically are not set to blow rocks to kibble setting that would be a presumptious assumption.

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWground-defense.html
A blaster bolt is particles/plasma contained in a force field The fake flesh on Luke Skywalker's hand seemed to be suitable armor against blaster bolts. Leathery skin seems to be suitable armor against blaster bolts.

Watched your clip. I would say the alien managing to survive out on that rock in the middle of the lava stream disproves the need for Chakotey's uniform to be providing him protection. As to enviromental protection the alien was exposed far longer to the smoke than Chakotey as well was borderline hyperventilating in panic while Chakotey was relatively calm during the ordeal. All of which could explain the alien appearing to faint after it was picked up and Chakotey not.

Quantify the tolerances of the alien's physiology.

[Lucky]

Lucky, if the armor did indeed protect against the effects of a Neutron Star's mantle, that means that species 8472, which can dent Voyager's armor and knock out Hirogen with a blow, hits with blows more powerful than the crushing force of a Neutron star, meaning humans, which aren't instantly pulverized when hit by a Hirogen which can go toe-to-toe with an 8472, are more resistent than Superman...

And I'm the one who didn't think my argument through?

Are you seriously supporting this wanked-out litteral interpretation of the Hirogen's comment?
Seriously?

Voyager can go black hole diving like any Federation vessel. Sure Duranium is strong stuff, but it isn't that strong. Stop making the absurd argument that the Hirogen armor has the physical and material strength to survive a neutron star.
http://burro.cwru.edu/stu/advanced/stars_blackhole.html

Hirogen are a race of "big game hunters". They want to be "sporting". They want a "challenge", and therefor give the prey "a sporting chance". They can easily manhandle Vulcans as I recall.

8472 easily over powers everything they fights in melee combat as I recall, and I don't recall any of Voyager's crew engaging a 8472 that was not already hurt in some way.

[Mr. Oragahn]

On top of all that Photon Torpedos can be made into shaped charges somehow.

That was a late modification by Data in TNG. The increased efficiency wasn't specified though, iirc.

[Praeothmin]

Lucky, if the armor did indeed protect against the effects of a Neutron Star's mantle, that means that species 8472, which can dent Voyager's armor and knock out Hirogen with a blow, hits with blows more powerful than the crushing force of a Neutron star, meaning humans, which aren't instantly pulverized when hit by a Hirogen which can go toe-to-toe with an 8472, are more resistent than Superman...

And I'm the one who didn't think my argument through?

Are you seriously supporting this wanked-out litteral interpretation of the Hirogen's comment?
Seriously?

Voyager can go black hole diving like any Federation vessel. Sure Duranium is strong stuff, but it isn't that strong. Stop making the absurd argument that the Hirogen armor has the physical and material strength to survive a neutron star.
http://burro.cwru.edu/stu/advanced/stars_blackhole.html

Hirogen are a race of "big game hunters". They want to be "sporting". They want a "challenge", and therefor give the prey "a sporting chance". They can easily manhandle Vulcans as I recall.

8472 easily over powers everything they fights in melee combat as I recall, and I don't recall any of Voyager's crew engaging a 8472 that was not already hurt in some way.

What?
YOU are the one who said we should believe what the Hirogen said, about pursuing an enemy in a Neutron Star's mantle, not me...

There is not a reason that it would be impossible for the Hirogen armor to protect itself and the wearer from the environment found in a Neutron star's mantel. It is simply a matter of miniaturizing technologies we see the UFP already has in most cases. Hirogen armor is not simply slabs of metal. It is an advanced power armor.

I said this was colorful metaphors, and that the Hirogen's armor wasn't that tough...
What the hell?

[sonofccn]

@ Lucky

And Sub par in this case could mean being able to laugh off the Death Star given what we see in TOS

Those calculations don't mesh with the rest of the universe. Its like TDIC. Their obscene outliers.

Do you really want me to dig up the threads you must have been to busy to read?

Do not mistake me not agreeing with it as being too busy to read it. I am growing sick of your accussing tone of either incompetence or evil conspiracy merely because I don't agree with your assumptions.

You say that Star Trek Planetary defenses won't be good enough, but you showed that even the weakest defenses we see in Star Trek are better then some of the best defenses we see in Star Wars.

The best should be the Hoth systems which could hold off six ships, including one really big one, and was equiped with weaponry which completely drop kicked an ISD. Coupled with their fighters and a smaller task force they might have even been able to win. Comparativly the weakest defeneses for Trek could not hope to stand up to more than a Galaxy class.

Just to back up the fact that shields covering large areas are a standard defense for the UFP

Well it would be more impressive if you posed the pic of Memory Alpha but yes its a large facility.

Photon Torpedos have light minute ranges, and are faster then light, and we have examples of plasma torpedos traveling flt.

You have two examples of light minute ranges. I showed you like five last time of a light second or less.

If a shield does not cover the entire planet then a torpedo could just burrow under it and explode

Those torpedoes weren't being used to explode the planet, they were being used to shatter dilithium crystals which were about to explode the planet.

Now clearly there must have been a shield protecting the city and the academy

I do believe the city was protected and further belief it was a planetary shield but it is an assumption and it is not clearly required for that scene.

Which means that destroying the attacking fleet would be rather easily.

Well I can poin to this G-canon quote:

The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships.

Typically calced out to be about a megaton and we can forget about a glorified flak cannon shooting down an Acclamator.

The defense fleets have to be able to pose a credible threat to expected threats,

First for this era there is not much in the way of expected threats. Second Starfleet seems the primary force to which such threats are met, local "defense fleets" are more of a last ditch sort of thing and will be highly dependent upon the race in question.

Landing troops would takes minutes with transporters in strategic places once shields are down.

I don't see how Betazed Could have been able to hold out for nearly 10 hours if they only had ground based weapons, orbital weapons and theater shields.

I can. IIRC transporters typically have shorter ranges than weapons ranges and you have to lower your shields to beam troops down. Even without planetary shields you still have to take out the ground based weapons and if they are behind theater shields that just makes things harder. As well there is more to conquring them merely beaming troops down, they have to accomplish their goals whatever they may be.

If an ISD can easily spit out 1 megaton blasts then I do not see how the asteroid chase in TESB makes sense, or the fact that fighter grade energy weapons are a threat.

Well the ISD likely had its shields down at the moment when the asteriod hit. As to fighters they can carrying proton torpdoes and fire very rapid bolts which could be up into the gigajoule range. Still problematic but since most of the times they really own Star Destroyers is with support of the Rebel fleet not completely unworkable.

The 50-100 megaton yield is from the Voyager episode "Rise" correct?

correct.

hat is actually a lower limit because the crew was setting the yield to just enough boom

Where do they say that?

I'd like to know what source you are using for the hours?

Why does [Palpatine] remain on this ship at all? He should be hidden. He should be guarded. We should have had him outsystem hours ago!"

I take it Torpedo Spheres are extremely rare?

I would say not numerous would be a more appropiate descriptor. They are heavily focused siege engines essentially designed to crack planetary shields.

Which incidently does raise the point said shields have to be numerous enough to warrent such attention but on the other hand equally valid evidence says Alderaan didn't have such a shield and the ANH novel does state it had defenese as strong as any in the Empire. So Wars is a contridictory mess on that score.

In the context of In the Pale Moon Light obsolete simply means not as good as modern systems

Once more I don't disagree with you on that. What we disagree on the strenght of the TOS system. Your basic argument is that TOS pwns Star Wars so having outdated weapons systems is a no issue.

A Constitution class would likely kill everything at the emitter site, and everything at the emitter site was in a rather solidly built building that might be likened to a bunker, and had its own life support system.. Everyone would be killed more quickly then they could be transported off the planet. That is getting near Star level firepower there you know.

Or the asylum is the source of the explosion which makes more sense then assuming the Connie has as inadvertant bleedage from firing main weapons planet busting firepower.

I would like proof any ship from star wars can focus the power from its weapons like a Federation ship.

I never claimed a Wars ship could "focus phasers to narrow beam" and I explictly stated the shield in the episode was good enough to ward off an ISD on its lonesome.

Your point is what? Everything vibrates on the quantum level last time I check.

That its simply an insane figure which doesn't mesh with the whole of Trek.

For a more practical example, the Enterprise-D was able to drill in a very controlled fashion about half way through an Earth like planet in about 20 seconds.

Yes. The Enterprise-D was quite good at drilling through planet's crusts. I believe they usually took some minor adjusting before they did so. It is what it is but correct me if I'm wrong but even flinging gigatons become useless with such demostrated power.

Then there is the pre-Federation verteron array that was a faster then light particle beam.

That is nice, do we have a calc on its firepower?

I can honestly say that I have personally felt the same way as Riker when reading Earth history.

I assume something is lost when reading it as a small excerpt of a script?

To each his own I guess. I simply found them being aghast at how two people could be divided on economic lines while the Cold War was still ongoing to be smugly condencending to the brave Men and Women defending us from the *spit* Commies.

They were unwilling to police their own borders from pirates.

More like unable. Everything had to be debated, you had slimy pols who were in the Trade-Feds clutches.

The Empire just went for scary over practical.

The Republic at least tried to make practical weapons. The Empire built things meant to be scary.

They both seem to be equally unpractical. Hollywood military design is fairly lacking.

The Republic had no force to fight pirates because the planet based forces were to busy dealing with planet based problem. There is no reason for the Republic to not have a force to fight an existing enemy.

It appeared to be set up that every planet was in charge of their own defense, making the Republic more a loose confederation, which while possesing of obvious problems doesn't equal being preachy pacfifists. Now in the EU the Republic of the era does come across as very preachy, in at least the Darth Plagious novel any planet even really owning a dedicated military was considering wrong and in times of crisis it seemed essentially mercenaries were to be hired to deal with the situation.

The idea of 200,000 troops was considered an ungodly huge army remember.

That has more to do with sci-fi writers having no sense of scale then the Republic being preachy pacisfisim

How is the Republic suppose to handle interplanetary crimes? No planet seems willing to lift a finger to help another member.

Well judging from TPM a dispute between two worlds would likely be negotiated by a Jedi represenative. Frankly through I think your wandering off track here, you were complaining the Old Republic was a bunch of preachy peace lovers, more so than early TNG, not the flaws you disagree with concerning the Republic's political structure.

Actually if the mercenaries had torpedos they could easily have a similar or better level of firepower to a Galaxy class. What is the mercenary's ship capable of?

They were never observed with torpedoes to the best of my recollection. And it never fought a drawn out fight with the Enterprise only turning and running when confronted, except for some slight of hand done by Riker where he faked lowering the Enterprise's shields.

You don't know how they planned to destroy the outpost. You only have a projected timeframe for the event.

In order to know what the mercs ship can do you need to be able to quantify the outpost's defenses, but you can't because we never saw them in action.

What do you hope to prove by comparing an outpost that everyone thinks has nothing to guard to the defenses of a planet where the Federation actually cares?

That a lower tier defense system can't hope to defeat more than two Galaxy class starships and in likelyhood would fall to far less. We know a mercenary ship equal to or less then to the Enterprise had a chance of defeating the outpost in fifteen minutes.

So an obsolete ship is more then a match for an ISD, but obsolete defenses that could hold off a conni are worthless against an ISD?

No. I said if you believe a Connie is a match for an ISD than your base assumption, my forces are so powerful even horribly hindered I still pwn you without question, was valid. If you are like me who doesn't see it that way then the assumption doesn't hold.

Fleets in Star Wars are tiny. They generally consist of 1 to 3 ships followed by 3 or 4 troop transports, and never consider orbital bombardment an option.

Well fleets were bigger in TESB and ROTJ, and they did consider an orbital bombardment, and the Imperial sourcebook does list lesser crafts which are supposed to flesh out the Star Destroyers we see. Such as Carrack cruisers who were named refrenced in the ROTS novel.

The problem is that the things you are trying to quantify have no quantifiable feats, and that said defenses are meant to defend something almost no one cares about. For all we know the shield was only intended to protect against bad weather.

It has phasers and possibly photon torpedoes. Weather doesn't seem like it was designed to repulse.

That causes a different problem for the Empire then because most Star Trek humans have jedi like psychic powers, relativistic to possibly faster then light reaction times, are able to withstand extreme temperatures without damage, and temporal manipulation powers

No. It simply means we take Paris not freezing to death with a grain of salt.

As much as I hate to say it, but all I can find that isn't a hologram and forcefields in the shield generator Worf builds is the energy cell from the communicator, but I admit I may have missed something.

The point is its an old west program it wouldn't have forcefields as forcefields, as opposed to faking solidness, and either Worf somehow reprogramed the holodeck or generated a forcefield.

Even if we exclude the fact Data didn't fall over, he still had to have absurdly good traction on the soles of his shoes. How much does Data weigh?

I don't know. I do know the scene was supposed to show how exceptional Data was not his footwear.

You need to read more carefully. I did not say that was evidence Dr. Crusher's uniform was shielded.

You posted it in reply to querying you saying uniforms provide protection against enviromental extremes seemingly with shields. If you don't think it is proof of shielding technology why did you bring it up?

Then explain them without fields being used. Explain how exposed skin is protected against -22 degrees C, or how they walk through steam, and likely poisonous gases without being bothered by it

I don't. Nor do I need to. You proposed a theroy and I showed you how it doesn't work. Merely because an explanation has not been determined yet does not mean your proven wrong theory must be correct.

Dr. crusher's coat sleeve is part of her coat. If any part of her coat is lit on fire then her coat was lit on fire.

I prefer being specific at least in these matters. Having ones entire coat set on fire is more impressive than having ones sleeve set on fire.

The fact remains that Tom had his hands and head exposed the entire time, and it makes logical sense for Star Fleet uniforms to be climate controlled because of the different environments member races come from..

Occams razor. You posit the uniform is given him protection but yet you admit he is having protection on areas not protected by his uniform so you then add that he has an unstated energy shield around him. Conversely I say the cold is simply not affecting him in the way such tempatures would normally do so.

If it was not the uniform then Star Wars has no chance in hell of defeating the United Federation of PLanets because humans are so powerful.

Its fairly simple. If he's protected both where he wears the uniform and where he doesn't it can't be the uniform. There is no reason to assume its the uniform and therefore no reason to imagine forcefields were none are implied. Its an outlier, a bit of bad writing call it what you will. Not something to try and base an entire argument around.

Precognitive powers for humans and other races are so common no one thinks anything of them.

Example?

Being able to read the backs of cards is so common no one cares about it.

Example?

Old out of shape doctors run at least 60 miles an hour.

Too bad he only uses it when he's off camera instead of when it would be useful.

You're claiming Star Trek humans are able to ignore temperatures that would kill or at least hurt extremely badly real world and Star Wars humans.

I'm claiming the writers didn't get the tempature right for how the characters were written.

Then there is the temporal manipulation such as when Picard dodged a phaser beam.

Does there need to be temporal manipulation to dodge a phaser beam?

You have nobodies like La,Forge having superhuman reflexes.

This is the titan's turn thing again isn't it?

And you wonder why I think unmentioned technology is being used. Star Trek gets rather absurd if you don't assume there is unmentioned technology.

Well I just don't see things your way. Nine times out of ten your examples require a very selective interpentation and then comes into conflict with the rest of the series when they don't use these special powers.

THe child goes limp when passing through the vapors, and even if it was just steam it is odd for a human to be able to simply ignore it.

Using the child to judge the temperature of the air and lava is a bad idea as we know little to nothing about its race. Vulcans and Klingons for example don't deal with cold as well as humans can deal with cold, but seem to love dry(Vulcans at least) and hot environments

You brought up the alien first talking about how it passed out. I am simply pointing out it was sitting there breathing everything in, fully exposed to any and all heat far longer than Chakotay. Either it can be used as an example to judge the hostility of the enviroment or it can't. As it stands I see nothing to suggest it was Chakotay's uniform which allowed him to survive as opposed to simple hollywood phsyics as it deals with lava fields.

THe problem is that the only thing not from the holodeck was the power source, but you want to ignore Data's shoes just because.

Well it beats trying to form some super never remarked upon, never seen again shoe sole based upon that scene.

When do we ever get an emitter identified?

I highly doubt that is a good option at best because such shields are often jury-rigged.

The various armbands things they slapped on their arms? Those are presumbly the shield generators.

Never claimed that.

I've been picturing vaguely defined fields.

Fine then. You still claim there is a forcefield around each person which does not impede their ability to interact with the enviroment. Yet there they were struggling to build such a forcefield.

The padding doesn't look like muscle to me.

Okay. It still supposed to be rather than some wierd armor meant to resemble muscle tone.

What is your point? Alpha is asked a question, and he answers it. Why should we assume that the armor is not as capable as the user claims?

First wanted to make sure I had the right quote. And as Preao says its nonsensical. Unlike Paris bravely chasing that mouse.

A blaster bolt is particles/plasma contained in a force field The fake flesh on Luke Skywalker's hand seemed to be suitable armor against blaster bolts.

On the other end of the scale we'd have the docking bay shootout scene, the bowl like craters blasted into the wall at Bespin. Power settings would best explain the descrepency.

As well it isn't like phasers always leave a burn mark when they kill someone.

Quantify the tolerances of the alien's physiology

I have no emperical data to do so. So in the absence of evidence and until shown otherwise I assumed him to be comparable to a T-normal human. Much simplier than assuming he can basicly immerse himself in molten lava and Chakotey has a protective forcefield.

[Jasonb]

problem 1 range

I freely admit if the Sov chooses to use its range than it can kill ISDs until it power cells run dry. I personally don't feel the evidence justifies the assumption of that prefrence however.

2, Sovies are ungodly tough bastards

True unfortantly there is reason to assume ISDs are helluva tough as well, the ROTS novel quote back on page 2 showing the battle we saw had waged for hours at that point and we know weapons powerful enough to vaporize a small town were being thrown around. As well in this scenario the Sov would be outnumbered thirty to one.

the numbers game doesn't really matter though when you cannot bring that many to bare without crippling yourself.

Yes it is completely debatable how much the Empire can afford to funnel into this "adventure" without suffering internal collaspe. But the evidence does support base industry compared to base industry that the Galactic Empire's is bigger by an indeterminate amount.

and then of course you have the quality vs quantity

Well yes pound per pound Starfleet runs circles around the Imperial navy.

which proves to me their construction abilities suck as their is no way a ship like that could be expensive unless they were just backwards as all hell

I can't say to that, merely the Imperial navy's budget has the raw monetary value to accomplish similar to what the Federation did should the Empire be so mercifully motivated.

it proves their only problem is man power..because they sure as hell don't have a resource problem

I'm afraid I still don't follow. What link is there between regenerating a star and the myraid resources needed to manufacture phasers, starships, tricorders etc?

ISD shield are not that tough. They can not even stop big piece asteroid from cause damage to it. It unlikely ISD star destroy shield do much protect against UFP photon torpedoes that can fly right into star core. Why do you think no one ever try knock out Star Trek.

[mojo]

i once knocked out star trek with a single punch.

EVIDENCE:
from the tng episode - "the trouble with fisting"

DATA: Captain! There is an unidentified object approaching at.. WARP 9,045!
PICARD: What?! That's impossible! No object could possibly-
MOJO: *from offscreen*
FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU
UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK..
PICARD: ONSCREEN!
MOJO: YOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!
ENTERPRISE CREW: FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK!
*Giant fist impacts Enterprise, entirety of Star Trek explodes.*

SCREENSHOT:

[TheRainKing777]

I don't remember this episode.

[Praeothmin]

I don't remember this episode.

It's in the remastered Blue-Ray edition... :)

[mojo]

the amount of effort it took to get that text to increase in size should make my joke canon.

[mojo]

seriously, for a laugh at my expense, press the quote button and have a look.

[TheRainKing777]

I think the federation beats the galactic empire just because the federation are the good guys. The good guys always win.

[mojo]

all this time, i thought this thread was about the galactic ALLIANCE. i was all like, 'what a jackass, talking about the galactic alliance like they're bad guys.' if we're talking empire, here, i slightly agree with his point. the bad guys tend to lose.