Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

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359
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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by 359 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:06 am

Jasonb wrote:Winning the war hardly means racing dying disease you winning other side still left standing life less six months.
What disease?


Here are three quotes that put the Federation as loosing:

RIKER: I'd hate to have to scrap her. Starfleet could certainly use another ship, even if she is old. 
[...]
TASHA: The Federation has lost more than half of Starfleet to the Klingons. 
[...]
PICARD: But if you go back, it could be a great deal more helpful. The war is going very badly for the Federation, far worse than is generally known. Starfleet Command believes defeat is inevitable. Within six months we may have no choice but to surrender. 
GARRETT: And you're saying all this may be a result of our arrival here? 
PICARD: One more ship will make no difference in the here and now. But twenty two years ago, one ship could have stopped this war before it started.


The first is Riker discussing how, with the few ships they already have, it would be a shame to be forced to scrap the Enterprise-C as they could use more ships to help in the fight against the Klingons.

The second is Tasha explaining to Castillo how it may not be any better there than back with the Romulans.

The third quote is very explicit in its intent. Picard clearly states that the Federation will be forced to surrender to the Klingon Empire within six months, and the presence of just one more starship will not alter that fact.

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by Jasonb » Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:00 am

Mith wrote:
Jasonb wrote:Winning the war hardly means racing dying disease you winning other side still left standing life less six months.
The fuck? Where did disease come from? Where the fuck are you getting this bullshit?
No logic reason why three Klingon warships that USS Enterprise D take on by herself if she not try protecting the USS Enterprise C would try take on both USS Enterprise D and USS Enterprise C they either had crazy or desperation.
The fuck are you talking about? The Klingons were winning that fight. It was suicide for the Enterprise D to take on all three of those ships by herself while trying to desperately keep the Klingons away from the Enterprise C. She got her ass kicked. The Klingons weren't at all desperate or crazy--in fact, Riker I believe suggested that they were overconfident, which matches right up with them winning the war and them knowing it.
Leaving only two possible either Klingon Empire much worst shape UFP aware of or Klingon Empire was infect nasty section 31 disease effect Klingon able make good judgment. In either case Klingon losing against UFP.
Except the Klingons were winning the battle. And the Enterprise C was, if I recall, already damaged. The Klingons were also stated to be rather overconfident. Even if we assume that these bunch of Klingons were either stupid or crazy, that doesn't indicate that Section 31 is behind it. You need evidence to prove that this is the case, not insane blithering about the mental state of people we don't even see. And in a combat situation that the Enterprise D crew knew would not go their way and didn't go their way.

Also rather funny that no one comments on the Klingons going absolutely batshit crazy anytime in the episode and producing a virus that drives the enemy slowly crushing your government into suicidal aggressive madmen bent on killing you is the last thing you want. Rather, you'd infect them with something that weakens and kills them and is hard to cure.

So again, just where is your evidence of any of this? The best you have is perhaps the Klingons being a bit tactically reckless. But given that their prize was the flagship of the Federation, one can excuse it as an ambitious Klingon captain looking to bring glory to himself and his house.
USS Enterpise D yesterday Enterpise timeline not flag ship she for that matter oldest Galaxy class battleship in all starfleet since she first. Also the number they build she also not likely be the most powerful

Pircard statement go against all cannon date about size UFP the UFP is 8,000 light years of cross. It take starship like USS Enterprise D 7 years to cross one end to other. We the statement Pircard made we can easy out run the Klingon vesicle. USS Enterprise D lot faster the Klingon warships. Fact USS Enterprise D engine are to travel normal time at normal speed at warp 6. With this said Klingon vesicle able to travel faster then warp 5 at top speed.

Only two ways to explain Pircard statement and take hard core cannon information about size UFP and the entire Voyager series.

One Klingon using scouts ship might well had much faster warp drive making look more power warships and UFP intelligence guess worst possible. Guess Klingon found wormhole allow distance area UFP.

Two the Borg also play role and basic making sure war not going end any time soon for new technology.

Distance alone makes Pircard statement goes against all cannon evidence when come to size the UFP. If Klingon Empire could not travel distance at least heavy warship the decoy theory logic answer to why UFP believe losing war.

Evidence section 31 deploy biological attack first they though nothing of it during the Dominion war what make you think they would not do it during UFP war Klingon Empire. UFP fighting 20 years war with Klingon Empire I have hard time believing they did not.

Also fact Klingon fleet on the map making next to no sense seem leadership did have heads straight like bunk fleet location far fount lines in war we suggestion they winning. Either they under confident or they sufficing disease can only afford without risk all starship crew dies leaving UFP with Klignon warship study. Map also back claim Klingon Empire suffering form section 31 disease.

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by 359 » Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:01 am

Jasonb wrote:USS Enterpise D yesterday Enterpise timeline not flag ship she for that matter oldest Galaxy class battleship in all starfleet since she first. Also the number they build she also not likely be the most powerful
The Enterprise-D was of the same age in the primary timeline and she was still the flagship, what evidence do you have that it is any different in the alternate universe?

Jasonb wrote:Pircard statement go against all cannon date about size UFP the UFP is 8,000 light years of cross. It take starship like USS Enterprise D 7 years to cross one end to other. We the statement Pircard made we can easy out run the Klingon vesicle. USS Enterprise D lot faster the Klingon warships. Fact USS Enterprise D engine are to travel normal time at normal speed at warp 6. With this said Klingon vesicle able to travel faster then warp 5 at top speed.
Maximum warp for the Enterprise is warp 9.4 to 9.6 with a standard cruise at warp 6. It is likely that the Klingon battle cruisers could archive at least warp 9. Also it seams unlikely that it would take a full seven years to cross the Federation given the Enterprise and other ships charging from one end to another in various episodes (TNG: "Best of Both Worlds", TNG: "The Chase", DS9: "Homefront"&"Paridise Lost", etc...)

Jasonb wrote:Two the Borg also play role and basic making sure war not going end any time soon for new technology.
What do the Borg have to do with this?

Jasonb wrote:Distance alone makes Pircard statement goes against all cannon evidence when come to size the UFP. If Klingon Empire could not travel distance at least heavy warship the decoy theory logic answer to why UFP believe losing war.
Even assuming distance is a problem, why would this make Starfleet's estimates incorrect. They knew something about the Klingon fleet and it's approximate size before hand, they know how many ships the Klingons have lost, they know how many ships they have lost, and they know that they have been loosing territory. What factor could lead to their estimate to be incorrect.

Jasonb wrote:Evidence section 31 deploy biological attack first they though nothing of it during the Dominion war what make you think they would not do it during UFP war Klingon Empire. UFP fighting 20 years war with Klingon Empire I have hard time believing they did not.

Also fact Klingon fleet on the map making next to no sense seem leadership did have heads straight like bunk fleet location far fount lines in war we suggestion they winning. Either they under confident or they sufficing disease can only afford without risk all starship crew dies leaving UFP with Klignon warship study. Map also back claim Klingon Empire suffering form section 31 disease.
There is no evidence for the involvement of biowarfare from Section 31. Yes, they infected the Founders in the Dominion War, this does not necisitate that they infect every opponent in every war in the same manor. Unless there is a refrence to such an act agains the Klingons in the episode (there isn't, I've watched it recently) than this argument is mearly speculation and attempted justification for an already drawn conclusion.

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by Jasonb » Wed Jun 13, 2012 3:22 am

359 wrote:
Jasonb wrote:USS Enterpise D yesterday Enterpise timeline not flag ship she for that matter oldest Galaxy class battleship in all starfleet since she first. Also the number they build she also not likely be the most powerful
The Enterprise-D was of the same age in the primary timeline and she was still the flagship, what evidence do you have that it is any different in the alternate universe?

Jasonb wrote:Pircard statement go against all cannon date about size UFP the UFP is 8,000 light years of cross. It take starship like USS Enterprise D 7 years to cross one end to other. We the statement Pircard made we can easy out run the Klingon vesicle. USS Enterprise D lot faster the Klingon warships. Fact USS Enterprise D engine are to travel normal time at normal speed at warp 6. With this said Klingon vesicle able to travel faster then warp 5 at top speed.
Maximum warp for the Enterprise is warp 9.4 to 9.6 with a standard cruise at warp 6. It is likely that the Klingon battle cruisers could archive at least warp 9. Also it seams unlikely that it would take a full seven years to cross the Federation given the Enterprise and other ships charging from one end to another in various episodes (TNG: "Best of Both Worlds", TNG: "The Chase", DS9: "Homefront"&"Paridise Lost", etc...)

Jasonb wrote:Two the Borg also play role and basic making sure war not going end any time soon for new technology.
What do the Borg have to do with this?

Jasonb wrote:Distance alone makes Pircard statement goes against all cannon evidence when come to size the UFP. If Klingon Empire could not travel distance at least heavy warship the decoy theory logic answer to why UFP believe losing war.
Even assuming distance is a problem, why would this make Starfleet's estimates incorrect. They knew something about the Klingon fleet and it's approximate size before hand, they know how many ships the Klingons have lost, they know how many ships they have lost, and they know that they have been loosing territory. What factor could lead to their estimate to be incorrect.

Jasonb wrote:Evidence section 31 deploy biological attack first they though nothing of it during the Dominion war what make you think they would not do it during UFP war Klingon Empire. UFP fighting 20 years war with Klingon Empire I have hard time believing they did not.

Also fact Klingon fleet on the map making next to no sense seem leadership did have heads straight like bunk fleet location far fount lines in war we suggestion they winning. Either they under confident or they sufficing disease can only afford without risk all starship crew dies leaving UFP with Klignon warship study. Map also back claim Klingon Empire suffering form section 31 disease.
There is no evidence for the involvement of biowarfare from Section 31. Yes, they infected the Founders in the Dominion War, this does not necisitate that they infect every opponent in every war in the same manor. Unless there is a refrence to such an act agains the Klingons in the episode (there isn't, I've watched it recently) than this argument is mearly speculation and attempted justification for an already drawn conclusion.
Tasher Yar said the USS Enterprise D first Galaxy class battleship means first UFP have at least one other Galaxy class battleship likely a lot more since USS Enterprise D at least 4 years old in Yesterday Enterprise timeline very possible old as 15 years compare to 3 years in normal timeline.

Please explain the Map

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ent091.jpg
http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... ent170.jpg
Why did Klingon fleet all basic areas conquered the Klingon maybe three fleets else were. Klingon have about 12 fleet worth only 3 three areas they did not already basic heavy control. One that show picture near by UFP major fleet. So why did Klingon Empire something like 5 fleet into UFP Territory.

UFP find it near to impossible make real estimates on size Klingon fleet after first 10 years. They could maybe count starship destroy in battle in fight they won. But not fight they lost. Also starships that retreated and explode after out sensor range something UFP not able add count kill. Starship Klingon Admiral rather risk few starship to badly damage want able return back base might well order destroy rather have fall hands of the enemy UFP not able count them. Also amount of resource required to make repairs is factor UFP intelligence could only guess. Last but not least Klingon did draw backs order able stay war UFP intelligence Klingon fleet size even worst Klingon Empire any of those draw back before.
The UFP could make estimate size Klingon fleet at 1% effectiveness. Also UFP able estimate if winning or losing war no real telling after all during Dominion war the UFP intelligence believe UFP going lose it.

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by Mith » Wed Jun 13, 2012 4:17 am

Jasonb wrote:USS Enterpise D yesterday Enterpise timeline not flag ship
Evidence that the Enterprise D is not the flagship of the Federation?

she for that matter oldest Galaxy class battleship in all starfleet since she first. Also the number they build she also not likely be the most powerful
It's likely that Tasha Yar misspoke. If the Enterprise D was the first ship of its class, then it would have been the Enterprise class, not the Galaxy class.
Pircard statement go against all cannon date about size UFP the UFP is 8,000 light years of cross.
Dude, it's Picard. Picard. I know your English sucks, but you can spell names correctly. It isn't that hard.

Second, so what? Warp velocity wasn't even consistent in Voyager, the series where it should have been most consistent in the entire series.
Only two ways to explain Pircard statement and take hard core cannon information about size UFP and the entire Voyager series.

One Klingon using scouts ship might well had much faster warp drive making look more power warships and UFP intelligence guess worst possible. Guess Klingon found wormhole allow distance area UFP.
There is no evidence to support this. At all. This is you making stupid shit up to try and use a common failing on the writing of the series in regards to warp speeds to support an argument that directly contradicts what the writers were saying.
Two the Borg also play role and basic making sure war not going end any time soon for new technology.
Jason...if you and I were in the same room when you said that, I'd have honestly of smacked you. Probably several times.

Because this entire argument goes against the very nature of the Borg. Sure, they might test out new methods of assimilation, but they don't get themselves involved with interstellar politics because it's beneath them. They see it as entirely irrelevant. If they wanted to push Starfleet into developing new technologies, they would invade directly and force Starfleet into a panic. A tactic that they'd also try on the Klingons, to get them both to create weapons that are designed to hit in a weight class far above them. Instead of honing weapons that are designed to fight in their weight class.
Distance alone makes Pircard statement goes against all cannon evidence when come to size the UFP.
So what? 90% of the warp velocities in Star Trek goes against Voyager, making most of their canon statements inaccurate. And it's only that high because of the repeated statement from Voyager's characters and because I think someone actually did the math once and got it right in late Voyager.
If Klingon Empire could not travel distance at least heavy warship the decoy theory logic answer to why UFP believe losing war.
Your evidence?
Evidence section 31 deploy biological attack first they though nothing of it during the Dominion war what make you think they would not do it during UFP war Klingon Empire.
Because the Dominion was waging total war on the Federation. The UFP and the Klingon Empire have been in conflict before. It's probably similar to how many powers in Europe let the Germans become too powerful in World War II because the idea that Germany would try for world conquest was both laughable and went against the habits of countries of the area. I believe that even when France was going to surrender during the war to Germany, that most of their people believed that only a few pieces of territory were exchanged.

They were flabbergasted when it turned out that was not the case.
UFP fighting 20 years war with Klingon Empire I have hard time believing they did not.
What you believe is not of importance to me. What you can prove however, is. Nor does it matter, because even if we assume that they did attempt it, there's no proof that it worked or that it was able to spread widely enough for it to infect a significant amount of the population.

The Founders had a rather glaring weakness in that when Odo merged with the Great Link, he infected the entire Great Link in one fell swoop. In order to infect the Klingon Empire, they'd have to infect thousands of highly alert planets, no doubt with outdated cloaking technology at best.
Also fact Klingon fleet on the map making next to no sense seem leadership did have heads straight like bunk fleet location far fount lines in war we suggestion they winning.
How so? War logistics are more than just obtained territory. It's also about being capable of sustaining a war against the Klingons. If Starfleet couldn't match the Klingons and their major worlds are lost as are their shipyards, then it really doesn't matter if it takes years for the Klingon armada to take the entire territory; they already have the momentum to ensure victory.

Either they under confident
Except that Riker stated that they were overconfident. Especially after they won X battle from before this conflict. So how could they be under confident?
or they sufficing disease can only afford without risk all starship crew dies leaving UFP with Klignon warship study.
I see, so a disease that you can't prove existed is on a starship that you can't prove had been infected (despite bio-filters of course) is making the Klingons stupid because you assume that their ships wouldn't stand a chance against the Enterprise D even though they Klingons were spanking the Enterprise D something fierce in the actual episode.
Map also back claim Klingon Empire suffering form section 31 disease.
No. No it doesn't.

You're wrong on so many levels that it makes George Lucas's work on Phantom Menace look like coherent and logical.

First off, your claim is the exact opposite of what the writers intended.

Second, your claims are entirely contradictory to what we see on screen in the episode, stated by actual officers who read the actual reports.

Third, all your assertions are based of poor assumptions.

All of this is because YOU decided that Starfleet was winning and have therefore decided to use any sort of tidbit of fact or information to support that notion rather than letting the episode speak for itself.

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by 359 » Wed Jun 13, 2012 6:52 am

Jasonb wrote:Tasher Yar said the USS Enterprise D first Galaxy class battleship means first UFP have at least one other Galaxy class battleship likely a lot more since USS Enterprise D at least 4 years old in Yesterday Enterprise timeline very possible old as 15 years compare to 3 years in normal timeline.
OK, so the Enterprise might be older, or it might not, neither way prevents it from still being the flagship. What evidence do you have that states the Enterprise is not the flagship?

Jasonb wrote:Please explain the Map
As far as I can tell the map depicts mainly one sector of space (small parts of ones above and to the sides) divided into smaller regions, several planets, locations of Federation fleets, and the location of known Klingon fleets. We do not know where this sector is located relative to the pre-war borders.
Jasonb wrote:Why did Klingon fleet all basic areas conquered the Klingon maybe three fleets else were. Klingon have about 12 fleet worth only 3 three areas they did not already basic heavy control. One that show picture near by UFP major fleet. So why did Klingon Empire something like 5 fleet into UFP Territory.
The Federation's fleets appear to all be clumped into one area, with Klingon fleets mostly in the sector on the right and some scattered accross the main sector. This is likely an attempt to prevent the large Klingon fleet on the right from dividing the Federation fleet and destroying chunks. The fact that there are Klingon forces moving about in what appears to be Federation controlled space is an indicator that Starfleet is incapable of stopping them, this is evidence that the Federation is loosing the war.

Jasonb wrote:UFP find it near to impossible make real estimates on size Klingon fleet after first 10 years. They could maybe count starship destroy in battle in fight they won. But not fight they lost. Also starships that retreated and explode after out sensor range something UFP not able add count kill. Starship Klingon Admiral rather risk few starship to badly damage want able return back base might well order destroy rather have fall hands of the enemy UFP not able count them. Also amount of resource required to make repairs is factor UFP intelligence could only guess. Last but not least Klingon did draw backs order able stay war UFP intelligence Klingon fleet size even worst Klingon Empire any of those draw back before.
The UFP could make estimate size Klingon fleet at 1% effectiveness.
I admit that I way over simplified the method of estimating the Klingon fleet. One method for gauging the possible outcome is if you are loosing territory and if you are consistently loosing large fleet engagements. If, over the course of the war, your side has lost X amount of territory and ships and you know that the opposition maintains greater forces than yourself, you could probably guess that you will continue to loose territory. At a certain point you will be forced to surrender. An estimate of six months may not be 100% accurate to the nearest month/week, but it is awfully hard to be completely wrong about the loosing part. Also an mentioned in several DS9 episodes Starfleet is well know for its neumerous projections and estimations, it seems unlikely that with all of that experience they could be completely wrong.

Jasonb wrote:Also UFP able estimate if winning or losing war no real telling after all during Dominion war the UFP intelligence believe UFP going lose it.
Yes, Starfleet Inteligance had predicted a loss to the Dominion. First, this does not mean they are always wrong. Second, victory over the Dominion was caused by several large unforseeable events. First was the Wormhole Aliens destroying the Dominion fleet in DS9: "Sacrifice of Angels" and preventing further reinforcements from then on. Next was the entry of the Romulans into the war. Last was the Cardassian uprising with Cardassian forces later turning on the Dominion fleet entirely. These are three major events that rendered early estimates worthless.


What evidence do you have that indicates that the Federation was winning? Even if all of your above statements were true than it would only indicate that the Federation might not have been loosing, not that they were winning.

In a past post I presented three facts from the episode and explanations of those facts:
359 wrote:RIKER: I'd hate to have to scrap her. Starfleet could certainly use another ship, even if she is old. 
[...]
TASHA: The Federation has lost more than half of Starfleet to the Klingons. 
[...]
PICARD: But if you go back, it could be a great deal more helpful. The war is going very badly for the Federation, far worse than is generally known. Starfleet Command believes defeat is inevitable. Within six months we may have no choice but to surrender. 
GARRETT: And you're saying all this may be a result of our arrival here? 
PICARD: One more ship will make no difference in the here and now. But twenty two years ago, one ship could have stopped this war before it started.


The first is Riker discussing how, with the few ships they already have, it would be a shame to be forced to scrap the Enterprise-C as they could use more ships to help in the fight against the Klingons.

The second is Tasha explaining to Castillo how it may not be any better there than back with the Romulans.

The third quote is very explicit in its intent. Picard clearly states that the Federation will be forced to surrender to the Klingon Empire within six months, and the presence of just one more starship will not alter that fact.
Add to that the fact that the Picard felt that it was so important that the Enterprise-C return to their own time safely that he sacrificed himself, his ship and his crew to ensure their return.

Please provide evidence, from the episode, disproving these facts as evidence of Federation loosing. After that provide evidence that the Federation was actually winning.

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by Praeothmin » Wed Jun 13, 2012 8:45 pm

Forget it guys, he's worst than SWST, he'll continue to ignore or twist your evidence until you give up in disgust...

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by Jasonb » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:23 am

359 wrote:
Jasonb wrote:Tasher Yar said the USS Enterprise D first Galaxy class battleship means first UFP have at least one other Galaxy class battleship likely a lot more since USS Enterprise D at least 4 years old in Yesterday Enterprise timeline very possible old as 15 years compare to 3 years in normal timeline.
OK, so the Enterprise might be older, or it might not, neither way prevents it from still being the flagship. What evidence do you have that states the Enterprise is not the flagship?

Jasonb wrote:Please explain the Map
As far as I can tell the map depicts mainly one sector of space (small parts of ones above and to the sides) divided into smaller regions, several planets, locations of Federation fleets, and the location of known Klingon fleets. We do not know where this sector is located relative to the pre-war borders.
Jasonb wrote:Why did Klingon fleet all basic areas conquered the Klingon maybe three fleets else were. Klingon have about 12 fleet worth only 3 three areas they did not already basic heavy control. One that show picture near by UFP major fleet. So why did Klingon Empire something like 5 fleet into UFP Territory.
The Federation's fleets appear to all be clumped into one area, with Klingon fleets mostly in the sector on the right and some scattered accross the main sector. This is likely an attempt to prevent the large Klingon fleet on the right from dividing the Federation fleet and destroying chunks. The fact that there are Klingon forces moving about in what appears to be Federation controlled space is an indicator that Starfleet is incapable of stopping them, this is evidence that the Federation is loosing the war.

Jasonb wrote:UFP find it near to impossible make real estimates on size Klingon fleet after first 10 years. They could maybe count starship destroy in battle in fight they won. But not fight they lost. Also starships that retreated and explode after out sensor range something UFP not able add count kill. Starship Klingon Admiral rather risk few starship to badly damage want able return back base might well order destroy rather have fall hands of the enemy UFP not able count them. Also amount of resource required to make repairs is factor UFP intelligence could only guess. Last but not least Klingon did draw backs order able stay war UFP intelligence Klingon fleet size even worst Klingon Empire any of those draw back before.
The UFP could make estimate size Klingon fleet at 1% effectiveness.
I admit that I way over simplified the method of estimating the Klingon fleet. One method for gauging the possible outcome is if you are loosing territory and if you are consistently loosing large fleet engagements. If, over the course of the war, your side has lost X amount of territory and ships and you know that the opposition maintains greater forces than yourself, you could probably guess that you will continue to loose territory. At a certain point you will be forced to surrender. An estimate of six months may not be 100% accurate to the nearest month/week, but it is awfully hard to be completely wrong about the loosing part. Also an mentioned in several DS9 episodes Starfleet is well know for its neumerous projections and estimations, it seems unlikely that with all of that experience they could be completely wrong.

Jasonb wrote:Also UFP able estimate if winning or losing war no real telling after all during Dominion war the UFP intelligence believe UFP going lose it.
Yes, Starfleet Inteligance had predicted a loss to the Dominion. First, this does not mean they are always wrong. Second, victory over the Dominion was caused by several large unforseeable events. First was the Wormhole Aliens destroying the Dominion fleet in DS9: "Sacrifice of Angels" and preventing further reinforcements from then on. Next was the entry of the Romulans into the war. Last was the Cardassian uprising with Cardassian forces later turning on the Dominion fleet entirely. These are three major events that rendered early estimates worthless.


What evidence do you have that indicates that the Federation was winning? Even if all of your above statements were true than it would only indicate that the Federation might not have been loosing, not that they were winning.

In a past post I presented three facts from the episode and explanations of those facts:
359 wrote:RIKER: I'd hate to have to scrap her. Starfleet could certainly use another ship, even if she is old. 
[...]
TASHA: The Federation has lost more than half of Starfleet to the Klingons. 
[...]
PICARD: But if you go back, it could be a great deal more helpful. The war is going very badly for the Federation, far worse than is generally known. Starfleet Command believes defeat is inevitable. Within six months we may have no choice but to surrender. 
GARRETT: And you're saying all this may be a result of our arrival here? 
PICARD: One more ship will make no difference in the here and now. But twenty two years ago, one ship could have stopped this war before it started.


The first is Riker discussing how, with the few ships they already have, it would be a shame to be forced to scrap the Enterprise-C as they could use more ships to help in the fight against the Klingons.

The second is Tasha explaining to Castillo how it may not be any better there than back with the Romulans.

The third quote is very explicit in its intent. Picard clearly states that the Federation will be forced to surrender to the Klingon Empire within six months, and the presence of just one more starship will not alter that fact.
Add to that the fact that the Picard felt that it was so important that the Enterprise-C return to their own time safely that he sacrificed himself, his ship and his crew to ensure their return.

Please provide evidence, from the episode, disproving these facts as evidence of Federation loosing. After that provide evidence that the Federation was actually winning.
Worn hole aliens destroy that Dominion fleet before DS9 Statistical Probabilities. They also prodect the Romulan Star Empire rejoin the allies and Basher openly said even if Cardasion uprising we still lose meaning none. Only thing Basher did not take into account is us biological weapon that section 31 which likely the reason why.

Section 31 by the way order for do biological attack that level Founders would requested send starship into Dominion Territory during the Dominion war deploy virus on founder home-world and return home.

Means section 31 least shuttlecafts with cloaking device maybe even phase cloaking devices.
As being speculation of section 31 deploy biological weapon against Klingon Empire. You suggestion that section 31 just set down watch and drink coffins while the Klingon Empire conquering the UFP. That go against everything we know about Section 31 response and response quickly threats and effective might I add.


The maps are location different star system and location of KLingon and UFP fleets. We see similar maps in TNG the wound and even Star Trek Nemesis.
Here picture another map is basic the same type just in the normal timeline.
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb2 ... onitor.jpg

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by Mith » Thu Jun 14, 2012 3:59 am

Jason?

Why are you doing this? Please, tell me. Why does it matter so much that the Klingons are losing the war with the Federation in an alternate reality?

And please, tell me, are you from another country or something? One that isn't English speaking? Because at this point, I can only assume that there's some loss in translation for you to arrive to some of your conclusions.

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by 359 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:46 am

Jasonb wrote:Worn hole aliens destroy that Dominion fleet before DS9 Statistical Probabilities. They also prodect the Romulan Star Empire rejoin the allies and Basher openly said even if Cardasion uprising we still lose meaning none. Only thing Basher did not take into account is us biological weapon that section 31 which likely the reason why.
My mistake, it has been a while since I watched that episode.

Jasonb wrote:Section 31 by the way order for do biological attack that level Founders would requested send starship into Dominion Territory during the Dominion war deploy virus on founder home-world and return home.
Actually Section 31 infected Odo before DS9: "Broken Link" during a medical exam at Starfleet Headquarters. He then carried the disease back to the founders when he was made into a humanoid in DS9: "Broken Link". All of this was stated in
DS9: "Extreme Measures":

SISKO: Section 31? What do they have to do with this?"
O'BRIEN: "We believe that they are responsible for infecting Odo in the first place.
SISKO: "What?"
BASHIR: "We believe that he became infected three years ago when he underwent medical examination at Starfleet Headquarters."
O'BRIEN: "Evidently, Section 31 hoped that Odo would transmit the disease to the other Founders when he linked with them."

Jasonb wrote:Means section 31 least shuttlecafts with cloaking device maybe even phase cloaking devices.
As being speculation of section 31 deploy biological weapon against Klingon Empire. You suggestion that section 31 just set down watch and drink coffins while the Klingon Empire conquering the UFP. That go against everything we know about Section 31 response and response quickly threats and effective might I add.
First, I do not suggest that Section 31 just sat back and did nothing. It would make no sense, but there is no evidence of a disease distributed to the Klingons by Section 31 either. Also there is never a reference to Section 31 controlling any vessels of their own, it would be to suspicious and easy to discover. Whenever they need to go from place to place the hitch a ride with someone else.

Jasonb wrote:The maps are location different star system and location of KLingon and UFP fleets. We see similar maps in TNG the wound and even Star Trek Nemesis.
Here picture another map is basic the same type just in the normal timeline.
Yes we do see similar maps from time to time. What is the point of your statement?


Now I ask you to disprove these three statements as evidence that the Federation was loosing:

RIKER: I'd hate to have to scrap her. Starfleet could certainly use another ship, even if she is old. 
[...]
TASHA: The Federation has lost more than half of Starfleet to the Klingons. 
[...]
PICARD: But if you go back, it could be a great deal more helpful. The war is going very badly for the Federation, far worse than is generally known. Starfleet Command believes defeat is inevitable. Within six months we may have no choice but to surrender. 
GARRETT: And you're saying all this may be a result of our arrival here? 
PICARD: One more ship will make no difference in the here and now. But twenty two years ago, one ship could have stopped this war before it started.


The first is Riker discussing how, with the few ships they already have, it would be a shame to be forced to scrap the Enterprise-C as they could use more ships to help in the fight against the Klingons.

The second is Tasha explaining to Castillo how it may not be any better there than back with the Romulans.

The third quote is very explicit in its intent. Picard clearly states that the Federation will be forced to surrender to the Klingon Empire within six months, and the presence of just one more starship will not alter that fact.


Next I ask that you provide evidence that the Klingon Empire was winning.

359
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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by 359 » Thu Jun 14, 2012 5:57 am

Mith wrote:Why are you doing this? Please, tell me. Why does it matter so much that the Klingons are losing the war with the Federation in an alternate reality?
I agree, is this so important that you must invent the whole disease thing merely to keep the debate going? In your reply please include evidence from the episode that supports your position.

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by Picard » Thu Jun 14, 2012 6:44 am

You wouldn't be surprised if you saw some of his "debate" over at ASVS. I mean, he believes that Enterprise-D can chew up entire Death Star with phasers. Obviously, Starfleet ships are demi-gods and as such it would be impossible for Starfleet to lose a war, even when we know that in later half of 24th century, Federation is only slightly stronger than Klingon Empire, and that in time we were talking about Romulans were allied with Klingons, and it is impossible for Federation to win against both Klingons and Romulans even later.

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by Jasonb » Fri Jun 15, 2012 2:18 am

359 wrote:
Mith wrote:Why are you doing this? Please, tell me. Why does it matter so much that the Klingons are losing the war with the Federation in an alternate reality?
I agree, is this so important that you must invent the whole disease thing merely to keep the debate going? In your reply please include evidence from the episode that supports your position.
Klingon ready board USS Enterprise D was going have warp-core breach in less then two minute. The Klingon must very desperation to beam starship that less two minute before it exploded. Please explain why Klingon do something that stumped.

359
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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by 359 » Fri Jun 15, 2012 4:00 am

Jasonb wrote:
359 wrote:
Mith wrote:Why are you doing this? Please, tell me. Why does it matter so much that the Klingons are losing the war with the Federation in an alternate reality?
I agree, is this so important that you must invent the whole disease thing merely to keep the debate going? In your reply please include evidence from the episode that supports your position.
Why did you quote me and not say anything regarding it?

Jasonb wrote:Klingon ready board USS Enterprise D was going have warp-core breach in less then two minute. The Klingon must very desperation to beam starship that less two minute before it exploded. Please explain why Klingon do something that stumped.
Umm... The Klingons never boarded the Enterprise. They asked for Picard's surrender, but when he didn't they kept firing on the Enterprise. Anyway boarding a burning ship is not an act of desperation, it would be an act of sheer reckless stupidity.



Again, here are three facts from the episode which prove the Federation was loosing the conflict:

RIKER: I'd hate to have to scrap her. Starfleet could certainly use another ship, even if she is old. 
[...]
TASHA: The Federation has lost more than half of Starfleet to the Klingons. 
[...]
PICARD: But if you go back, it could be a great deal more helpful. The war is going very badly for the Federation, far worse than is generally known. Starfleet Command believes defeat is inevitable. Within six months we may have no choice but to surrender. 
GARRETT: And you're saying all this may be a result of our arrival here? 
PICARD: One more ship will make no difference in the here and now. But twenty two years ago, one ship could have stopped this war before it started.


The first is Riker discussing how, with the few ships they already have, it would be a shame to be forced to scrap the Enterprise-C as they could use more ships to help in the fight against the Klingons.

The second is Tasha explaining to Castillo how it may not be any better there than back with the Romulans.

The third quote is very explicit in its intent. Picard clearly states that the Federation will be forced to surrender to the Klingon Empire within six months, and the presence of just one more starship will not alter that fact.


You have yet to adress these three points, nor have you provided evidence to support your position. Please do so, or accept the following conclusion:
The Federation was loosing the war with the Klingons in TNG: "Yesterday's Enterprise".

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Re: Who wining the war Yesterday Enterpise timeline

Post by Jasonb » Fri Jun 15, 2012 11:39 pm

Klingon command said Federation ship Enterprise, surrender and prepare to be board.
If you like see evidence watch this video form 4 minute and 6 secounds to 4 minute 16 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SoIVBXRLYrk
Or if you own Netflix watch last 2 minute and 32 seconds to the last 2 minute and 21 seconds.



As for other statement more half starfleet been destroy how much Klingon Empire been destroyed and Riker statement that starfleet surly another ship even if old I never said that war going great UFP.
War blood factor he dying more painful death another factor beside Tash Yar likley not even know section 31 existed or response.
Pircard statement depend UFP intelligence be right and on top of that Section 31 deploy biological weapon strong evidence they did weaken Klingon less able fight effectively. The fact Klingon readily board starship about exploded in less then 2 minute total crazy. Not been crazy but never see Klingon do any near that craziness. Strong evidence Klingon infect disease section 31 gave them. Or please explain why Klingon beam into starship in less 2 minute going to expoded make. UFP find out Klingon more crazy thing lead defeat guessing they not died out. Major deside factor if side wins or loses.

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