Well I’m not a miracle worker, but I did my best ;)
Lucky wrote:Booby trap(TNG)
A planet destroyed by an unknown number of ships over an unknown duration which certainly doesn’t demand that a stray shot was capable of mass scattering a planet as you require to support your position.
The Omega Directive(Vger)
More details please
The Council(Ent)
More details please.
Funny how every single Star Trek has Death Star superlaser level or better weapons.
One you have not demostrated this and second even if there was an example in every season it would still lose out to the greater evidence. Such as in Pegasus from the next generation where it would take most of the Enterprise's torpdoes to destroy an asteriod which generally pegged as smaller than Earth. Or this from Paradise syndrom season three of TOS:
SPOCK: Doctor, that asteroid is almost as large as your Earth's moon. Far enough away, the angle necessary to divert it enough to avoid destruction is minute, but as the asteroid approaches this planet, the angle becomes so great that even the power of a starship
Needing to divert an asteriod nearly as large as our moon instead of simply pulverizing it to space dust.
The weapons are common, and in the hands of groups less advanced then the United Federation of Planets.
If you are refering to the Xindi, who had to build a superweapon that everyone jaw dropped at, they had tech seriously out of whack for their time period and had future/alternate universe benefactors. And if not then you'll need to be more indepth than a few episode names.
You like to put your fingers in your ears, close your eyes, and go La La La when dealing with me in my experience with you. Your act of playing victim really only makes you look worse.
I merely do not agree with your theories or the assumtions you make to justify them. Similarly I do not like accusing tones being slung when I disagree with your assetment.
A couple of Photon Torpedo launchers are as good if not better as the Hoth Ion Cannon, and there should be hundreds on most settled planets..
An ion cannon can instantly disable something of a ISD weight. Photon torpedoes can essentially only "bludgeon" an enemy to death.
and there should be hundreds on most settled planets..
I find that a dubious assetment, an armed outpost may or may not have photon torpedo launchers and I don't see why random planets should be more heavily defended than an actual fortification.
Photon Torpedos have anti-shield technologies, and travel faster then light. There is nothing a Star Destroyer can do to stop them.
Well I highly doubt a Star Destroyer could intercept and destroy a photon torpedo the only clear cut case of a torpedo bypassing an enemy shield IIRC involved having a "plant" which told them the shield harmonics. A rare event in other words as well due to our limited understanding of how Wars shields work, much less Trek, it opens a whole can of worms we can't answer and should best be left by the wayside.
The fighters used in Star Wars are useless against any defended Star Trek position do to lack of range, and lack of fire power.
Since we are talking about orbital weapons/planetary defenses range isn't much of an issue, we are more or less talking about engaging things in upper orbit/ground level. Granted strikecraft still are not exactly ideal weapons to use but it isn't like you can just peg them all before they have a hope of returning fire.
The most powerful weapons used by Star Wars fighters are less powerful then Star Trek mortars.
Well looking
here, if you'll forgive me using a third party, we are looking at triple digit gigajoule for a photon grenade. Conversely proton torpedoes are placed in C-canon at a kiloton which should be in the Terajoule range.
Now you need to prove that the 5 star destroyers and Super Star Destroyer could bombard the Hoth base.
Here:
TESB Script wrote:VEERS
My lord, the fleet has moves out
of light-speed. Com-Scan has
detected an energy field protecting
an area around the sixth planet of
the Hoth system. The field is
strong enough to deflect any
bombardment.
Memory Alpha doesn't have shields for symbolic reasons.
Yes...Never stated that wasn't true. Merely stated it would have been nice if you posted an image of the planetiod to show why memory Alpha being capable of having shields is an impressive feat.
That's nice, but completely irrelevant. Imperial ships might as well be stationary targets the way they maneuver, and they are being shot at by FTL weapons.. If a SD can't dodge the Rebel's Ion Canon at Hoth they have no chance of doing anything about the faster then light weapons Star Trek powers have, and Earth has had FTL weapons since before the Federation was formed.
First you spoke of light minute ranges and I was pointing out that those ranges are a small minority of examples. Second I don't think I ever expected ISDs to dodge enemy fire through the FTL weapons speeds requires an asterik that it takes some time for them to "speed up" and that normal combat ranges make it unlikely they'll ever have a chance to go so super fast.
You really shouldn't put words in people mouths. I never claimed Picard was trying to destroy the planet read a bit more carefully. Read my posts like you claimed you do.
I did. You posted this:
If a shield does not cover the entire planet then a torpedo could just burrow under it and explode
Which since your "example" involved firing torpedoes down into a planet and not sending torpedoes down into a planet curving around and then up inside a theater shield I took "it" to mean the planet.
I was pointing out that that Photon Torpedos can bury themselves, and then explode. We see Dominion torpedos do the same thing with the Defiant's hull.
Yes they can burrow underground but that doesn't translate that they could just burrow beneath a theater shield and therefore theater shields are completly pointless.
There had to be a shield over the planet, or a single torpedo would have turned anywhere hit into a crater, and at least badly damaged the city near the academy that was attacked.
No there does not have to be a shield. Nothing in the episode requires that their must be a shield. All the episode demands is that the Academy was attacked and recieved damage roughly comparable to heavy bombing. Now as stated I do believe there was a shield and believe it is a good assumption but it is an assumption.
Those calculations are based on real world USA small towns, and not on Star Wars small towns which a proton cannon would likely be able to destroy with a well placed shot.
Well going
there again he read off 400 kilotons for his pure Star Wars small town or a little under half of the figure I went with. Still trumps a glorified flak cannon
Small towns in Star Wars can be very small when the planetary population is in the thousands, and the natives are only about as tall as a clone trooper's knee.
Yeah...the average height is a tad bit taller than those aliens.
The Defense fleets are a first line of defense of a planet/planetary system because they can easily move, and anything ground based would be the last line of defense.
Source? Because it looks like Starfleet is first response, local defense systems are last ditch effort. Ground defenses, such as they are, can likely be rolled under the same heading as local defense forces as well to avoid confusion as we further argue this.
The UFP has been improving weapon and shield technologies throughout its existence, and implementing those technological improvements as they are "perfected" on their Star Ships. Why should we assume that the UFP would not do the same to their defensive fleets, and other defenses normally?
Because I have never argued they haven't improved them since the 22nd century. I have argued that "local defense" is undertaken locally, is secondary to Star Fleet and likely flucuates highly between members.
Why wouldn't the defensive fleets be capable of fighting expected threats like if the Klingons suddenly decided to attack?
Because of different roles and smaller budgets than Star Fleet? Why not ask why couldn't the Coast Guard just fight off the Red Navy.
It doesn't matter if the other powers that can threaten you are friendly or not, you design your defenses to hold them off in case they decide not to be friendly any more.
Are we talking about war between member worlds or against Klingons? The former I don't believe the Federation is quite that fragile that open warfare could break out in any minute and if the latter that would be what Starfleet is for. And for the record I have never stated the Federation completely disarmed or anything, just became far more complacent that they were the big dogs.
What you are doing is taking a vague and unquantifiable quote, and then making a smurf load of assumptions that ignore that facts.
The problem is we have a deficit of facts and the few we do have do not point to defense fleets being a big, major concern. You appear to be arguing that the Federation has a massive secondary fleet it never talks about waiting in the wings which I find takes far more assumptions than anything I'm doing.
If I recall correctly the Dominion has an unusually long transporter ranges, but that doesn't really matter. What matters is the fact that a faction like the Dominion can't beam through shields, the Dominion think nothing of killing off a population if it annoys them,
The Dominion conqured the planet after the defenses fell so obviously all out slaughter was not an option. Therefore that they must have had planetary shields or otherwise the Doms would have glassed them is an invalid argument. Which is not to say that a planetary shield couldn't have been employed it simply isn't mandatary.
We know a Galaxy class and an Intrepid class can beam hundreds in a single go. It would be likely the Dominion could do the same..
Sure. No problem with that.
If there was no shield over Betazed then there is no way they could have held out for nearly half a day.. The planet would have been nuked or worse.
Except if you plan on nuking you don't bring along an army. If your goal is to take the real estate intact you likely don't pull out block busters and fighting could easily have been limited to the lower settings like we see in typical combat.
As you can see, Rise is a lower limit because there is no evidence Voyager used a torpedo set to maximum yield, and the dialog implies that they had careful calculated how much boom they would need to vaporize the asteroid in a real world fashion.
There is nothing in that dialoge that says they set it to lower setting. They fired a torpedo and expected it to vaporize no more no less. It would be an assumption on our part to assume they set the weapon to a lower setting.
Ignoring the facts that a small town could be a town built by things almost the size of a meerkat for things about the size of meerkats, and have populations in the thousands at best, we know for a fact that ships rarely fire full power shots in Star Wars, and that the commander has to order such a thing..
The turbolasers in question are being fired during a combat situation ergo is is the default that is fired in a combat situation.
I would like to know how this quote proves a Star Destroyer can endure serious combat at full power or otherwise for an hour or more? I don't see anything that talks about ship capabilities, and we know that during the Clone War it was standard practice to not fire at full power.
Because old Clone war era warships have been trapped, and presumbly fighting, for a couple hours at that point. Exchanging weapons a G-canon quote says can vaporize a small town whether that is "full power" or not being irrevelent.
Planetary shields are only theater shields in Star Wars, and they are usually turned on after the attacker has landed troops.
And you are welcome to prove this assertion.
I've only heard of maybe two planets that had defenses that would warrant such a weapon in the EU, and one of those planets is the capital. The Empire has a weapons to deal with a problem they don't have?
Imperial Source Book page 58 wrote:The Torpedo sphere, a dedicated siege platform, is designed to accomlish one mission-to knock out a plent's shields.
That isn't an argument, that is what C-canon says a Torpedo sphere is for.
The Empire won't be fielding torpedo spheres because they can't have many, and are needed back home.
No, that is your assumption on how the Empire will ration its resources. Now yes their should not be "many" of them but they are dedicated heavy siege equipment it isn't like they are desperately needed to maintain general order. The Empire may or may not see fit to dispatch such weapons onto the arena if it feels the situation is warrented.
1) We don't know how outdate the defenses were. The quote is nearly unquantifiable. You keep harping about
No we don't know how out of date the defenses were. But they were out of date enough a comparable power could take the world easily. Which is were are having an argument. You are assuming the Empire is so out classed Kirk's shuttle could pwn the death star. I'm assuming an ISD could give Picard's Enterprise a close run for her money if he wasn't careful.
2) You need to prove that Star Wars weapons have anti-shield properties like Star Trek weapons.(The Outrageous Okona)
According to
here shield is used twice both refering to the laser debacle.
PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that?
RIKER; Regulations so call for a Yellow Alert.
PICARD: A very old regulation. Well, make it so, Number One. And reduce speed. Drop main shields as well.
If your repeating the argument that lasers being unable to pierce the navigational shield implies anti-shield technology required to "punch through" a Starship's shields then I must point to
Allegiance third season TNG:
[Bridge]
WORF: Sir, the Hood has arrived at the rendezvous point. They are expecting us in thirty six hours.
PICARD 2: Thank you, Lieutenant. Mister Data, the nearest pulsar is in the Lonka cluster, is it not?
DATA: Correct, sir.
PICARD 2: What do we know about that pulsar?
DATA: A great deal, sir. It is a rotating neutron star of approximately four point three five six solar masses.
PICARD 2: Mister Crusher, how long would it take us to get there?
WESLEY: At warp seven, thirty four minutes.
PICARD 2: Mister Crusher make it so.
WESLEY: Sir?
PICARD 2: Set course for the Lonka pulsar. Warp two.
[Bridge]
PICARD 2: Helm take us in to twenty million kilometres.
WESLEY: Aye, sir.
RIKER: Mister Worf, divert enough power to the shields to offset the increased radiation and magnetic fields.
DATA: Sir, at twenty million kilometres, our shields will only be effective for eighteen minutes.
PICARD 2: Noted, Mister Data.
So the output from a Pulsar, which shouldn't be equiped with anti-shield technology, can batter down/through a ship's shields fairly indicating its merely a matter of power rather than total immunity to electromagnetic spectrum.
3) You need to prove that Star Wars vessels can deliver the energy in the same manner as a Star Trek vessel. The only thing in Star Wars that can is a superlaser.
The hell? Wars shoots bolts of energy, trek shoots beams of energy. Both sides have torpedoes, even if one side rarely uses them. Now I can throw out nadion particals and such bricabrac but the end of it is we have no idea how exactly a turbolaser or phaser operate.
You need to show a single shot from a Star Wars ship can kill everything on a planet after breaching the shield.
If said shield was generated from a central location on an otherwise lifeless and indeed quite hostile planet and everyone alive was situated around it? Have the base's reactor breach and explode or if you want have bleed through damage crack the asylum open and kill everyone that way.
That only makes sense if you ignore the dialog, and what how we see Shield generators behave when shields are beached in Star Trek that I know of.
I am not ignoring any episode dialog, merely putting McCoy's vague speech into the wider context of Trek. And the reactor explosion best explains the issue since they were afraid of destroying the facility on the far side of the planet or we have to assume the bled off from the Ent firing could punch its way through and destroy and destroy the facility.
Being able to focus all the energy in one spot with an anti-shield weapon was why the Enterprise's crew had a chance of breaching the shield. It wasn't a matter of simply hitting the shield hard enough.
That is never stated in the episode and is only your assumption. And it kinda of goes against everything we see where people try and pummel each other to death instead of a fighting to get a torp go pass through shields and wipe out the opposing ship.
The standard fleet in Star Wars seems to be about one to three ships, and those ungodly huge fleets we see in TESB and ROTJ are one of a kind
At best you could say standard fleet deployments of the Republic were 1-3 ships. But then you have to look at ROTS where for a major engagments they pulled a lot more than 3 ships apiece and then we are dealing with the more militant Empire.
Your entire plan for the Empire is to give them resources they do not have, and claiming they will use tactics they have never used.
Resources given to them by C-canon and tactics demostrated in G-canon.
Your odd quirk of nerfing and with holding technologies from the Star Trek side
I merely go with what is the most consistent showing of abilities and technologies.
while give Star Wars things they never had and or could not afford is rather annoying.
I merely go with what is canon as well I try and treat both franchises even handed, trying not to gimp or inflate either.
The Enterprise-D's crew were very careful to cause as little damage as possible
Yes but my point being that with such firepower makes even flinging gigatons useless. Requiring obscene firepower to even dent a Galaxy class shields which means it should be able to handle an asteriod field instead of having to send a shuttle in.
The point that you seemed to miss is that the Verteron array beam is faster then light, able to target ships as fast and maneuverable as an NX-01, has an effective range of light hours. There are no ship based defenses in Star Wars that can deal with something like that, and nothing in Star Wars can even see a weapon like that, and this is a primitive particle beam used for civilian purposes by Star Trek standards.
The Verteron is a nice bit of hardware and kicks the arse of the defense platforms and planetary defenses we saw in the 24th century.
I see it as the writer being optimistic that the Cold War would end peacefully, and both sides would learn from it.
My issue is it assumes no point to the still ongoing cold war, that being free or enslaved was just a bit of misunderstanding and that Riker and co were "evolved" beyond such petty disputes.
A pure capitalist system is rather unpleasant for most living under it often, and a true Marxist system is pretty much wishful thinking.
To each his own.
The lines in no way insult anyone, but illustrate how different things are in the 24th century of Star Trek, It's not like Star Trek Earth is our Earth.
No its a televison show. One where it was decided that all but laughing at those maroon like aliens divided upon a social-economic line was to be kept in. Now as I said to each his own but that kind of snobbery look how advanced and evolved we are is the kind of thing I think of when i say the first couple of seasons of Trek were preachy.
As much as the Trade Federation was corrupt they were the only shipping compony that could legally work in the Republic, and only really cared about making a profit. Pirates would cut into their profits, and so would pirate hunting. They are just the type to try to share the burden of dealing with the pirates by getting the rest of the Republic to shoulder some of the bill.
What does pirates and the rest have to do with the Trade Federation invading Naboo? You were complaining the Federation was allowed to invade the world while I was arguing the Senate was more locked up and corroded.
It is more likely the Naboo and Alderaan types who would be against having a standing military, or things are just really peaceful even during the wars given what we see.
Alderaan had defenses as strongest as any in the Empire circa ANH and was a supplier of munitions for the Rebellion. Now as to the Repulic era I don't know but there is nothing from the movies that says the Republic is overly preachy about peace.
Not really. For example: An AT-TE is a better over all design(if barely) then an AT-AT or an AT-ST
Based on?
Imperial Star Destroyers are meant to be big and scary while saving money in the fact they perform the duties of a Republic Attack Cruiser and Acclamator. From what I've heard something like 200 hundred Dreadnaught class has the tonnage of 11 ISD, but something like 3 to 6 Dreadnaught class can match 1 or 2 ISD.
Yes the bigger things get the less effective they become. Its a trait of Wars. has nothing to do with the Republic or the Empire.
This works because the Republic and the Empire had large numbers of ignorant stone age members
We don't know the break down of membership. We see them doing a relief mission to one primitive world, one with an advanced built to their scale I might add, hardly grounds for proclaiming the majority of members are primitive savages.
That is what is shown in Episodes 2, 3 and much of SW:TCW IMO. I really don't read much of the EU. 5 million troops makes the Republic senate freak out. It makes it sound like most races in the GFFA are absurdly docile.
They have small numbers yes but that is because Sci-fi writers have no sense of scale. All you can say is they think five million is a big number, you can't say they are a bunch of preachy peace lovers because of it.
Realistically there should be an interpol or FBI type organization, but there isn't as far as i can tell. There doesn't even seem to be a Mutual Defense treaty
We are talking about if they are preachy about peace not if they should have had a FBI analoge. And as for Mutual Defense that appears what the whole senate thing was for, the senate was locked up on what was actually happening and what to do about it.
The smaller the numbers in the PT the more sense the OT makes. Honestly, everything makes more sense if all the numbers are small.
Maybe. But that isn't what you were arguing, you claimed the Republic was preachy pacisifists and held up, among other things, the millions of clones.
Star Wars never pretended to be realistic, and it makes all the super weapons like the Malevolence make sense. It is the same type of story as Flash Gordon. The writers know exactly what they are doing with the numbers.
No it didn't. neither did Trek. We can only pick up the various pieces we're given and see how they fit togather.
Given the way the Viceroy acted you would think he had never met a Jedi. He acted like they were assassins.
Maybe he hadn't? It isn't like the Trade Federation is invading semi-important worlds all the time.
Heck, in TPM the Republic didn't even consider Jedi respectable sources of information that Naboo was being invaded by someone at least posing as the Trade Federation. If the Jedi were actually agents of the Republic their word should have been enough for the Republic to take action.
That does not change the fact that those same Jedi were dispatched to settled a dispute between Naboo and the Trade Federation. That they ultimately were ignored is merely proof how corrupt the Republic had become and how impotent.
So the merc ship had weapons that might have been able to disable the shields of the Enterprise-D?
No.
”Gambit part 1” wrote: [Bridge]
DATA: That is impossible, sir. The ship you are on has violated a Federation outpost. It is my duty to stop it.
RIKER [on viewscreen]: I'm your commanding officer. I'm giving you a direct order. Understood?
DATA: Commander, if you could explain
[Mercenary Bridge]
RIKER: I've never explained my orders before. I'm not about to start now.
(ends transmission)
RIKER: I won't let him blow this ship into space. If I can set up a low level comm. link between the two ships, I can use my personal command codes. I can deactivate the shields.
BARAN: Do it.
[Bridge]
WORF: Commander, we are receiving some kind of signal from the mercenary ship. These are Commander Riker's access codes. He is attempting to shut down our shields.
TROI: That doesn't make any sense. He knows those codes would have been changed as soon as he was captured.
DATA: That is correct, Counsellor. He does know. Mister Worf, prepare to drop the shields.
WORF: Sir, we would be totally defenceless.
DATA: I am aware of that.
WORF: Sir, as soon as they see
DATA: Mister Worf, that is an order.
WORF: Aye, sir.
[Mercenary Bridge]
RIKER: It worked. The shields are dropping.
BARAN: Fire.
As I said Riker faked lowering the Enterprise’s shields, by using by then defunct command codes, which Data then complied with and feigned battle damage in order to allow the Merc ship to escape. Picard, on the Merc ship, arranging for the disrupters to go off line just after the first salvo ensuring the Mercs had to run instead of pressing their sudden “advantage”
You are also forgetting that Star Trek ships have far more control over the weapons on their ships then those of Star Wars. We see that beaching a shield requires a very focused beam with anti-shield properties for example rather then just blasting at random places.
No I don’t see. I’m still not sure what precise anti-shield properties you are talking about nor do I see where focusing beams is required to bring down shields rather than merely expedient.
A Constitution class can kill everything on a planet with a single shot, and repeatedly took planet killing shots in multiple episodes.
That would be your claim. You have not provided further evidence of a Connie, or any Trek ship, surviving Death Star scale planet scattering energies save for taste of Armageddon. And there are other alternatives to kill the couple of dozen or so people on the planet than the caste off energy from the phasers can bore through the planet.
I'd like the quotes about orbital bombardment from TESB and ROTJ. I've heard of these, but can't recall them from the movies..
The bombardment is only mentioned in TESB not ROTJ, sorry for the confusion.
These lesser ships used by the Republic and Empire never appear in the movies even though they should have, and that means they aren't likely to be used to invade an alien territory.
Well that’s the widget,in the EU Star Destroyers are merely the biggest and toughest of the Imperial Navy, treated similar to how we might treat Carriers in our navy, with a vast flotilla of grunt ships fleshing everything out. Such as again the Carrack light cruiser . If one is running with the EU, which since I created this thread I’m in the right to do so, then that is what they have. As to why we don’t see them more often all of them are inferior to an ISD and not nearly as imposing and in all likelihood Star destroyers likely have better “legs” in terms of distance through that doesn’t mean one can just write them off as you appear determined to do.
Seriously, those phasers are like meant to take down shuttles. The type talked about in "Who Watches the Watchers.", and we don't know what type of photon torpedo they would have.
As long as you accept those weapons were placed there to defend it against some form of hostiles it doesn’t matter what you think said hostiles are. As stated the worst defense in trek can hold off a Merc ship for fifteen minutes, Death Squadron would have made mince meat out of it.
We know that all humans have latent psychic powers in Star Trek, and all humans have minor psychic powers because .it is stated in "Where No Man Has Gone Before"(TOS).
Actually:
Where no man has gone before season 1 TOS” wrote: DEHNER: In tests I've taken, my ESP rated rather high.
KIRK: I'm asking what you know about ESP.
DEHNER: It is a fact that some people can sense future happenings, read the backs of playing cards and so on, but the esper capacity is always quite limited.
So some people have the ability but it is always quite limited. And further we see roughly zero addition otherwise normal humans with ESP in later episodes.
Everything in the holodeck is force fields normally. Worf was likely being targeted by force fields that simulate bullets. That is what Picardf seems to have used in First Contact.
Yes the bullets are most likely forcefields that isn’t what is important. Worf generated a forcefield around himself. Either A) he hacked into the computer and it generated it for him, baring in mind that this was a western program malfunctioning heavily, or B) using simulated 19th century technology jury-rigged his communicator into a force field generator. Considering it was a major plot point that the computer was not responsive to him I find B more likely of the two.
I watch a lot of Top Gear, so being able to get the needed traction is something that comes to mind for me when I see or think about such a scene. It doesn't matter how strong or tuff Data is if he can't get the needed traction. A similar problem happens when Data runs superhumanly fast.
Which I just chalk up to it being Data. Show me similarly traction on anyone else and I will gladly concede super footwear for the Federation.
Then there has been a major communication failure. I've been trying to argue from the beginning that Star Fleet uniforms are composed of advanced materials that protect the wearer, and may have protective energy/force fields. To assume only fields being used would be silly. It is only logical to think you would design a uniform that be comfortable in situations Star Fleet personnel are going to have to deal with like plasma fires on ships, ice worlds, lava worlds and so on.
I am not opposed to the notion of “advanced materials” used in Starfleet uniforms through we differ in that you seem to conclude the uniform is some form of environmental protection device, I see no logical reason why a uniform should protect people from fires or ice or lava since it was never designed or intended for that effect, where as I see it as a uniform. Further since this all hemmed from talk of blaster vs Starfleet personnel I have seen zero evidence to suggest that blasters would have any increase difficulty penetrating the possible “advanced materials” found in Starfleet uniforms as they do the “advanced materials” found in Storm Trooper armor.
I believe it was Emissary(TNG), DataLore, and "The Siege of AR-558 that showed Klingon armor, Federation uniforms, and rock/cave wall(possibly shielded) having similar visual effects when shot with Phasers and Disruptors..
I think they all sparked when they struck is that what you are referring too?
I've provided evidence to support my claim. You have not provided evidence to support your claim to the contrary. You made a claim that you have failed to support with evidence. The burden of proof is on you, and you can't ignore things characters do in canon just because you don't find the implications to your liking.
You have offered no supporting evidence for these magical forcefields of yours. You yourself admit Paris is protected where the uniform is not touching ergo it can not be the uniform protecting him. Your theory is wrong. That I can not at this time explain why Paris didn’t freeze to death doesn’t make your theory any less wrong or require that I present further evidence to even more invalidate your theory.
Your entire argument hinges n the fact that no one has directly credited the uniforms as far as I can tell.
That is obviously one part of it, made up technologies no one ever bothers to mention are inherently questionable, but it is also the fact that when presented in a situation requiring these supposed shields they struggled to cobble one together and without these alleged shields there is no reason to assume the uniform protected Paris because he is protected where the uniform is not touching him.
You have two options given the evidence:
1)Star Trek humans are superhuman by modern real world Earth standards.
2)The clothing humans wear in Star Trek lets them do things that modern real world humans would consider superhuman.
And I do admit Paris was super human for that episode same as I admit the Enterprise took a death star scale hit in Taste of Armageddon without noticeable strain. That doesn’t mean I’m going to rewrite everything to conform to them however.
The sleeve of Dr.Crusher's jacket was lit on fire with a phaser by Lore who was not trying to kill her.
There was a flash and flame, and Dr. Crusher was running out of the room as Lore wanted her to.
Dr. Crusher's arm and uniform were not burnt, or even damaged in the slightest.
That tells us the uniform or jacket is made of something protective, uses some sort of shielding, or both.
No. It tells us Dr. Crusher’s arm wasn’t apparently burned. It could be from protective forcefields or fire retardant materials or random chance and her having insulation beneath her jacket sleeve and quickly putting out the flame.
Fact: Tom Paris's head and hands are exposed to -22 degree Celsius air for hours, but Tom did not suffer anything beyond discomfort.
Agreed.
Fact: No one was surprised a human would only suffer discomfort in a -22 degree Celsius environment for hours,
Agreed.
Conclusion:
Either all Star Trek humans can shrug off extreme cold for hours, or it is the result of unmentioned technology at work.
Or for that episode Paris could shrug off such cold same as warp 2 can be a million c in one episode while warp 9 is roughly 9000c, or 20,000c, in another episode.
Then you are arguing that superhuman abilities are common place in Star Trek to the point everyone just assumes you have them.
No I am arguing for an outlier, a discrepancy, a bit of poor writing. However of the two options you propose super humans at least can be made to work within the context of the episode.
Here you go again taking away any hope Star Wars has against the god like races in Star Trek in your eyes at least. I'm trying to keep all the races in Star Trek being entities that make Galen Marek seem unimpressive.
Unfortunately such thinking has the same problem as your tech theory, never commented on never demonstrated when it would be useful and collapsed under its own weight because of it.
It is common enough everyone gets tested
your own quote shows only some people have this gift and its quite limited in ability. As well testing for something does not mean you are tripping over it, there was and is a lot of testing and claims about ESP in RL Earth but that doesn’t mean a single person has it, at best you can claim the Federation circa the mid 23rd century had an interest in the ability. And since all subsequent humans post this episode have been shown not to have any abilities such as described humanity has a very low ESP potential.
Performing Titan's Turn requires superhuman reflexes, but if you did the run it is likely you did the maneuver.
Which begs the question why doesn’t anyone use those super powers when on screen.
Picard dodged a phaser beam seemingly by manipulating the flow of time from his perspective in conspiracy.
Clip? Why does dodging a phaser beam require time manipulation?
Freezing temperatures for hours in only spandex is going to be very bad for most humans aside from the extremely rare super according to real life.
Yes it would be but we are not dealing with real life. We are dealing with a television show mistakes happen.
Yep, I believe I showed you how much time the pilot has to make the turn before slamming nose first into Titan at 70% the speed of light.
Then it fails like before because they never use it. Just a bit of errant background fluff you have to throw out to make a stable, consistent universe which doesn’t involve idiocies of everyone having episode saving super powers they don’t use or mention.
We routinely see ships functioning at relativistic speeds with no time dilation being mentioned as an issue. I assume there is some unmentioned technology at work.
And I throw that into the pile of things we know sod all about and best not try and make any guesses.
Tom Paris does nothing that is impossible for a human to do in the real world. It is just really rare. What makes his -22 degree feat odd is that it does not surprise anyone.
Which you take as evidence for either unmentioned super powers or unmentioned super tech. I just label it an oddity and move on.
We already know from Datalore that Star Fleet uniforms don't burn, and protect the person wearing it. Heat isn't an issue.
No. It is possible star fleet uniforms don’t burn/insulate the wearer or it could merely have been the additional layer of her coat which protected Crusher. And having a little flame on ones arm is far different from standing above a lava flow.
It is implied in the the -22c degree incident with Tom that exposed skin is somehow protected unless all humans have gotten genetically enhanced, but that would be against the law, and they were starting to run out of time.
No. The uniform can not have protected Tom, not without adding an nonimplied variable of protective shielding.
In Basics we see Chakotay fearlessly charges through a cloud of vapors implying he had nothing to fear from poisonous gas or steam. Given Star Fleet officers and enlisted are high educated inthe sciences they must have all known the dangers of a volcanon.
The issue is nothing in the episode demonstrates any of the realistic dangers one might expect, we have an unprotected alien sitting out in the middle of it breathing everything in that Chakotay does, exposed to all the heat that he is. As I demonstrated movie physics treat lava as only dangerous if you touch it so if you want to demonstrate this super protective ability you have to give me a scene where the heat and gases are being demonstrated. Show me Chakotay walking past trees combusting into flames, people gasping and choking and fainting from equal exposure that Chakotay shrugs off.
When does anyone struggle to build a personal shield of any type in Star Trek when they have been taught how to? They just grab some bits and peaces off the shelf, and cobble them together.
The whole cobbling things together instead of just readjusting their personal forcefields each of them are supposedly cloaked in.
There could be an argument made that personal shields and armor are used by the Klingons and the Federation in Way of The Warrior.
I saw no indication of shield technology and without knowing the setting of the disrupter we can hardly make guesses on if his uniform added anything to his chance of survival.
Making the armor that shape would allow for better freedom of movement wouldn't it?
Except it isn’t armor in universe. Its supposed to be muscle tone that is what it was created for in the prop costumes. You are taking a piece of prop and are trying to used that to make a in universe argument.
You are honestly arguing that first doesn't know what his armor can do, and where he has been?
Well lying would perhaps be a better explanation but the core tenet would make that suit better protected than the freaking USS Voyager herself, which as far as I know couldn’t survive entering a neutron star, and yet Hirogen actual spaceships are not massively superior to Voyager.
Blaster bolts and similar technologies like Turbolasers try to tunnel into what they hit, and then explode. This is how they get the flak effect, and why they often act like buried charges.
Evidence they “tunnel” into their targets.
The problem with your examples is that we don't know what was behind/in the wall, and blaster damage tends to be inconsistent for seemingly no reason.
No more inconsistent than phasers.
In cloud city we don't know what was behind the area shot with the blaster.
And if you have evidence there was anything in that wall which could add to the destruction we can discuss it but as it stands Occam’s Razor sides with the simplest explanation.
Han was shooting into Stucco covered mud in episode 4, but the storm troopers in the same scene did not have anywhere near as impressive showings
Which again power settings or if you wish to do lowest demonstration I’ll have to do that for Trek as well.
Actually being burnt by a phaser is very common even with stun settings. as I recall.
here and
here Showing LaForge being shot with stun with no noticeable burn.
We know for a fact phasers have mega-joule or several orders of magnitude higher outputs.
Which I didn’t say anything against, in deed I use phasers and their discrepancies as an example for blasters.
I may be wrong, but I seem to recall the halls in Star Fleet ships are made with things like tritanium.
[USS Yamato corridor]
RIKER: This isn't a Federation ship. These walls aren't tritanium. It's close, but it's material beyond our technology. Let's get to the Bridge. There's got to be an answer to all of this somewhere.
So at least on Galaxy class ships walls are made from tritanium yes. But I’m talking about hitting fleshies or rock not deckplate.
So you assume he is just like a human in spite of knowing the kid is not human. I'm sure there is a flaw in your logic there.
You were the one who first brought him up as proof of Chakotay’s protection. Simple facts are the alien is our only barometer for the environment and if you want to assume he is really super hardy compared to a human I can just as easily assume he is super weak in comparison to a human.
