So can Trek ships use phasers to shoot down torps?

[Who is like God arbour]

Wrong.

• • • • GEORDI: Ignition sequence... six seconds... three seconds... Now.
        Shock wave patterns within predicted range. Seventeen hundred percent rise in gamma radiation levels. Helium fusion rate increasing...
        
        TIMICIN (concern showing): What about the heat and pressure levels?
        
        GEORDI: Steady so far. Density at eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter. Temperature approaching sixty million degrees Kelvin.
        
        TIMICIN: We want it to stabilize at two hundred and twenty million.
        
        DATA: Pressure wave harmonics dispersing. Temperature in target zone increasing... to eighty-one million degrees.
        
        GEORDI: Still rising. Ninety million degrees Kelvin... And now one hundred ten million.

As you can see, shortly after the ignition, the temperature and pressure were steady. After Geordi has said that, the audience should hanker after the answer, if it has worked. Only after Data has reportet, that the Temperature has rised to eighty-one million degrees, the audience has known, that it has worked.That's why we can use those values.

But even if not, we have seen, how fast the temperature has risen. If you want, reduce the value by 10 percent and you will still have high enough values.

Why? This happens after the torpedoes have entered the sun and released their stuff, unless I missed something.

GEORDI
Torpedoes now entering the stellar
core.

TIMICIN
Their shields are holding.
Guidance systems normal.

GEORDI
Ignition sequence... six
seconds... three seconds... Now.

I think there lies the problem. I get the impression that the torpedoes did their job by reaching the core and probably released whatever they had to drop there, which triggered the reaction.
Which means that calculations would have to be based on the parameters prior the reaction.


GEORDI
It's your work that's made this
possible, Doctor...

BEVERLY
That's right, we're only the
delivery service here...

Experiment about to start...

WORF
Photon torpedoes... armed and
targeted.

It really seems that the torpedoes are loaded and will just serve to dump something into the core.
I don't see any evidence that the torpedoes need to survive during the whole reaction and even a bit after that.

That said, it's interesting to see how they can apply good resistance against pressure on small devices.

From your own quote, we know, that the torpedos have entered the core and that their shields were holding while going further into the core. Only then (after they have reached the appointed position due to their modified guidance system), the ignition was startet. I assume, that the torpedos were destroyed at that moment. The ignition hasn't caused immediately effects. Pressure and temperature were for a short time steady. And only after that time, the temperature increased.

But that means, that we know, that the torpedos, after they have crossed the different layers of the star and for a short time, after they have entered the core,

• • • 

have withstand the temperature and pressure of the star.

And we know, that the temperatur in the core, before it was increasing, was approximate sixty million degrees Kelvin and the pressure eleven hundred grams per cubic centimeter. For a short while (the time between entering the the core and the ignition), the torpedos have withstand that conditions.

[Who is like God arbour]

I'm no astronomer and can also only use wikipedia. According to it, in a Red Giant, if it is heavier than 0.4 but less than 2.57 solar masses, the addition of helium to the core by shell hydrogen fusing will cause a helium flash — a rapid burst of helium fusing in the core, after which the star will commence a brief period of helium fusing before beginning another ascent of the red giant branch.

But it is irrelevant, what a Red Giant can do or can not do.

We'd first have to show that such an event is occuring.
I'm not sure how you attempt this.

No, because it is irrelevant.
We know the conditions of the core shortly before they have changed after the ignition. And only these values are relevant.

[Who is like God arbour]

They worked on them for hours. Just to rework the guidance system? What's to rework in detail besides just dive into the sun. The gravity itself will do most of the work.

I can't remeber, that they have worked at a torpedo. We have seen several times, how they work at torpedos in other episodes - but not in that episode (as far as I can remember). There is no reason to assume, that the hardware of the torpedo was changed. If that would have been necessary, it may have been easier to build new probes from scratch.
And that it is not as simple as firing the torpedos into the sun and let the gravity do the work should be obviously, because otherwise, it would have been unnecessary, that Tmicin has needed forty years of his life to develop the programming, which will control the photon torpedos - without knowing, in which sun they will be fired. The Federation has just found the star, on which they have done their experiment. Timicin hasn't known it before and it is only logical to assume, that there were a lot of specific data from the star, that have to be programmed into the guidance system.

Ticmin obviously had some blueprints or some basis to work from, since he's been devising that program for 40 years or so, and it *only* took hours to get it applied to the torps.
We only see them for mere minutes, while we know they've been working on this for much more time. Therefore it's hard to say they never fiddled with torps before or even after that.

Timicin didn't have the resources to do so, and apparently (and logically), shielded torps were most suited for that operation, but even them needed a modification.
We can consider, though, and rather safely, that the many hours spent on the system, was Timicin adapting his program to the torps' systems.
But Timicin did make changes on the guidance systems.

I'll agree that there's no evidence that shields were modified. I didn't consider the strong possibility that it would take so much time to make Timicin's project fit with a Starfleet torpedo.

Mostly because I didn't consider that it would require such a massive reconfiguration and years of work just to have a torpedo fly towards the center of a star.

I understand this as a concession.

Only for further explanation: It is not, that the gravity would pull the torpedos to the core of the star - as you may imagine it. There is a lot of pressure coming form the core that would press the torpedos out of the star. They would have to be flying active to the core against the stream and hold their course to reach their appointed positions. I imagine, that this is no easy task and that there are many calculations necessary.

[Who is like God arbour]

I need more data, and screenshots eventually, of the torps, holes and ground structure, to judge this case. Thing is, did you consider kinetic energy and momentum relative to such impacts, and the possibility that the torps, in that case, were modified to have their shield get also a NDF component?

It was said in the episode, that they have used torpedo casings to protect the probes. Further modifikation were not mentioned. I understand it so, that the standard-torpedo casing was enough to do that job. They have fired the torpedos as usually.

• • • http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als244.jpg
      
      http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/ ... als245.jpg

I'm sorry, but trekcore.com has not more screencaps from the torpedos. You have to look, if you can see the episode or find anything alsewhere.

But considering, what the torpedos have done in Half a Life, Pen Pals is not exceptionally.

http://tng.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 40&page=12

Mmh... let's see. First, it's an interesting torpedo formation with have here, with the four of them lined as a wall.
That said, there's no information to be used there. I did expect the glow to be present.

But we have proof that the probes were modified:


WORF
We are modifying Class One probes
so they become resonators. We
will then use torpedo casings
to protect the probes once they
begin burrowing beneath the
surface.

The probes will dig the holes, not the torpedoes.

So that leaves us with Half a Life, which in my opinion doesn't require any further calculations, and Pen Pals, which is ruled out because the diggin' is done by the modified probes.

And how do you imagine the probes digging the holes, while inside of the torpedo casings or how do you imagine the torpedo casings protecting the probes, while these are digging holes?

And how do you imagine that digging holes at all?

As I have understoot it, the torpedo casings with the probes in it, are fired from the Enterprise and penetrate the surface at the impact to reach the lattices. Maybe, the propulsion of the torpedos are driving them further after the impact.

But they don't stop, let the probes out, which then begin to dig holes.

[Who is like God arbour]

That would be like Starfleet engineers not knowing about never pouring water into a concentrated acid.
I can buy the lack of skill to apply this knowledge to a combat situation, especially for a newbie, but not the idea that it would be so unknown.
Did the captain who fired at the torp enter special parameters for the phaser or something, exploiting an achille heal in a standard torp design?

Besides, I already gave plenty of reasons why if this phenomenon was so well known, it would be exploited more than so rarely.

There would be a whole chapter in naval tactics and strategies books about the danger of torpedoes, and exploiting photonic shockwaves. Many battles would be long range engagements, where the game is to shoot down your torpedoes the closer to your target.
Even more, at close range, no one would ever dare fire torpedoes, because of the fear of any accidental PS. Borg cubes wouldn't bother using a thousand guns, and suicide pilots wouldn't attempt last resort rams or fire all they have in the most traditional way (phaser+torps hurray).

No, sorry, it doesn't fly.

We don't know, what the Romulan Captain has done exactly.

Oh but if he has done something very special and specific, then the PS shoudn't be a problem on a regular basis, because it precisely requires special circumstances and former knowledge to be applied in a certain way.

I mean, no matter how you swing it, it's always going to bite your butt. The whole phenomenon brings more problems than solutions. Either it's another trick of the day, or the writers trying to explain why shooting torps is bad, but if the second option is right, they didn't push the thought very far.
the only way not to blame the writers lack of foreseeing is to consider a PS to be very rare and hard to achieve.

I have meant, that he could have created the photonic shockwave in another way, than the Emergency Command Hologram has. Maybe has hasn't even used a torpedo (do Romulans use photon torpedos?) or if, he hasn't shoot it down with a phaser (do Romulans use phasers?).
Maybe he has created a kind of mine?
We don't know it.
The Emergency Command Hologram has merely stated, that he has created a photonic shockwave - not how - although I admit, that it was implied, that it was the same way, the Emergency Command Hologram has created it.
But it is irrelevant, what the Romulan Captain has done exactly.

[Who is like God arbour]

And we don't know how well known the photonic shockwave really is and if there are a whole chapter in naval tactics and strategies books about the danger of torpedoes, and exploiting photonic shockwaves. Fact is, that we know near to nothing about photonic shockwaves nor how often they are used. We know only, that we have observed them only once and we know from one other case, in which a photonic shockwave was used (maybe for the first time) in a battle.
Maybe the photonic shockwave is only devastating to ships, that are not prepared, that there are possibilities, to protect one against a photonic shockwave. We don't know and have not enough data to make plausible conclusions with what we have.

It's precisely that glaring lack of data that makes the idea of not shooting down torps because of PS most unlikely.

Again, no matter how you look at it, I don't see the PS idea to be of any use. It brings far more problems than solutions.

That's stupid. Because we, the audience, has a »glaring lack of data« doesn't mean, that all the protagonists have a »glaring lack of data«.

It is not plausible to assume, that they wouldn't have researched the photonic shockwave. It is furthermore to assume, that the photonic shockwave as a phenomenon was already known, before its first application in a battle. How else could have the Romulan Captain have got the idea to create such a photonic shockwave.

And that brings back my conjecture, that Kim has known the phenomenon but hasn't thought at a tactical application in the stress of a battle, inexperienced as he was.

[Who is like God arbour]

If anything, your examples rather explain fairly well why the captains would try to put as much distance as possible between their ships and the enemy, and thus favour long range engagements.

The whole point is a bit of a gambit: gaining the surprise and reducing your enemy's ability to react, but getting closer to its cannons and making his job easier. As a whole, it surely increases the speed at which a battle outcome is determined.

The job is not necessary easier. At small distances, the angles between two relatic to each other moving ships is far higher. If a ship is only thousand kilmoeters away and moves thousand kilometers to the side, I have to correct the aim of my weapon by 45°. But if that ship is a million kilometers away and moves thousand kilometers to the side, I have to correct the aim of my weapons only by 1,5°. A shorter reaction time increase the problem only.

Which would make captains favour long range fights, not close ones. That said, don't take it badly, but I have never been really impressed by the military aspect of Trek ships until the Defiant came into the dance. From time to time, you may have had your ships with aft launching tubes, but they are few.

The Defiant has the advantage of being compact and extremely manoeuverable. It's one of the rare ships which can benefit from shorter ranges.
The bigger ones, even if some of them have displayed nice curving abilities in First Contact, still need to manoeuver a lot more to present their heavier weapons at a good angle.
And there was the Voyager, which at some point fired torpedoes from its sides at bioships. I don't know if it was a late modification, but it was a good feature.

Well, I digress. As a whole, it doesn't help much here.

Yes, you have digressed a little bit. But that's not the point. The point is, that you are overseeing, that, if a battle happens, usually at least one of the ship, if not both of the ships are wanting to battle and win. They usually have no interesst in prolonging the battle. The ship, that is convinced to win, will search its opponent and try to press it into the battle and don't give it the chance to escape. That means for most weapons efficience and most accuracy, it will try to get as close as possible. That doesn't mean, that a battle could not occur over 100'000 km distance. But that will only prolong the battle.

[Who is like God arbour]

It was, ahem, an image. If our eyes can see the beam, if a minimum of parallax can determine the position of the beam, its beginning and ending, then a civilization that builds robots, human-like AIs and visors and gazillons accute sensors shouldn't have problems to place sensors all the lenght of a ship to get a well defined estimation of the enemy's position.

Again, todays fire control sensors have nothing to do with what a civilization that builds robots, human-like AIs and visors and gazillons accute sensors can do. Kane Starkiller was speaking of todays fire control sensors and not of Starfleets fire control sensors.

Sorry, I get a bit lost, and I'm not really concerned about who started the argument or what. My point is that it would require very little technology marvel to have robotic eyes (your sensors) and computers to extrapolate the position of the enemy ship from the observation of the beams.

It's extremely basic.

It's not. The problem is not (today), to have a camera. The problem is to programm a computer to regocnize, what the camera is seeing. That is very difficult.
Look at the programs, that are written to regocnice faces (for security) or streets (to steer cars) and similar things. They are not really able to regocnize, what they see, how we regocnize it. There are advancements but the technoloy is still in the fledgling stages.
And to regocnize a bolt and calculate its point of origin in a 3d room is even more complex.
Maybe there are systems, that are able to do it. But I don't know of one and that was, why I have asked Kane Starkiller to provide proof, that such a system indeed exists today.

[Who is like God arbour]

And yet they don't do it. It's possible that their sensors have become so specialized that they're not capable of measuring beam specific emissions with more mundane sensor systems.
I mean, hello, really. If a person can get an idea of where the beam is coming from just by looking at a screencap...

So either you admit that the sensors have severe flaws, or that some kind of jamming was going on, as suggested.
If I were you, I'd certainly opt for the jamming, without necessarily neglecting the possibility that the Federation use so complicated sensors (maybe relying on subspace) that they have left more primitive means behind them. Yet, in that case, it would have greatly helped them.

It's a bit like like if you were dealing with an enemy which can render your antimatter inert (don't ask). You'd sure be happy to still possess old fashioned nuclear warheads onboard.

If you watch that video, you will notice, that they obviously were able to detect the Scimitar fairy well.
I don't see a reason to assume, that the sensors are flawed or that there was jamming. If one or both of these would be true, how do you explain the high targeting precision?
If the sensors were bad, each hit should have been a fluke. But that was obviously not the case.

Yes, they were, but once they detected it, they didn't keep trying to spot it when firing torpedoes, and they had no way to update the info into their torpedoes.

But that wouldn't be a problem with the sensors or the computer or the aim but a problem with the torpedo guidance system.

Maybe the torpedos are not supposed to accept new target values after firing because it would be a possibility for an enemy to hack into the torpedo and cause them to fly elsewhere or even back to the ship, that has fired them, especially if a communication between torpedo and ship would be necessary a lot (like in a battle against a cloacked ship), what would only enhance the enemy's opportunities to overhear the communication between ship and torpedo and crack the encoding.

Maybe that's why there is only the possibility to send the self destruct order or orders, that were deblocked before the start of the torpedo.

[Who is like God arbour]

Are we going into some kind of circular reasoning? They don't evade defensive shots because no one shoots at them. No one shoots at them, so they don't try to evade defensive shots. I couldn't believe such a humourous situation would have been going on for centuries. :P

No, no one shots at them because they know, that they are not able to destroy a photon torpedo because it is protected by strong shields. We already know, that they have strong shields. That is an intangible canon fact. That is not a circular reasoning.
But you are doing it because you don't accept, that torpedo shields are strong enough to withstand most attacks.

I verified the script, and for the moment, the super strong shield idea you seem to be on doesn't have much support. Capital ships' phasers have more than enough juice to puncturate such shields.

Care to elaborate? Where does the script state anything about the strength of the shields besides the conditions, in which the shields have still protected the torpedos?

[Who is like God arbour]

Fact is, that if torpedos could be shot down, they would at least try it. Even if you think, that their accuracy is not good, you will have to admit, that it is not that bad either and that, if they would at least try it, there is a realitical chance, that they would hit - at least per coincidence. But they don't even try it.
And if it would be possible to shot down torpedos, why wouldn't they install CIWS or similar systems? Why would that be the case? Are they to stupid? Or do they know, that it is useless? What is the more plausible reason?

Isn't it that most of the time torpedoes are fired, most engagements occured at close ranges?

See again the problem of vector probability. In the heat of a battle, at close ranges, and with the idea, somehow, that it would take a bit of time to lock on torpedoes adequately, you see why as a whole they don't bother much.

It's not a superb excuse, but by far, it's one of the best.

Strong shields and PS being out, there's not many contenders left.

Why are strong shields out? Where was ever stated, that the shields are not strong enough?

Your explanation doesn't makes sense. Even if the probability to hit a photon torpedo is low, it is still better to try it then to close the eyes and wait for the hit.

And usually, the torpedos are coming from the same direction, in which the enemy ship is. And that would be the direction, in which the weapons are aimed anyway.



And even if it would be difficult for the main weapons, to react as fast as necessary, why wouldn't they simply install CIWS around the ship. Small canons similar tho the phalanx, which are able to take an oncoming torpedo under rapid fire? If strong shields would be out, that would be the obvious solution. And that solution doesn't has to be invented. We already have such systems today.



But they neither try to fire at a torpedo nor do they install CIWS or similar systems. And that does make only sense, if they know that both would be futile.

[Who is like God arbour]

You see, that's the super accuracy point I'm not so hot on. There's just lots of claims, and not much evidence for the moment.

There were several episodes named in that thread, which are proving high accuracy.
Already the old Enterprise has fired in »The Changeling« at the only one meter high space probe Nomad at a distance of circa 90'000 kilometer.

Huh, that was a phaser shot? What were the conditions?

We are speaking of accuray. Their sensors were able to find Nomad and program the torpedo with it as target. The torpedo was fired and has hit Nomad. That is, what I would call accuracy.

[Who is like God arbour]

In »The Price«, the new Enterprise (D) has shot down a missile.

This one was adressed. There wasn't any surprise at all, and all parameters were known.

Nevertheless, they had have to aim their weapons to hit the small missile. Even if they wouldn't have been surprised, they would have to have the accuracy to be able to hit such a small missile with nearly no lead time.

[Who is like God arbour]

In »Conundrum«, the Enterprise has shot down several small Lysian sentry vessels.

I think I remember seeing that on Youtube. Excuse me, but I also recall that they were still big enough, they didn't fly terribly fast, and were shot down within less than 2 kilometers or so.
Got any video by chance?

They were bigger than a photon torpedo, but there were more of them and the Enterprise has shot not one after another but simultaneously.
That shots has shown, that each segment of the phaser stripe is able to shot independently.

[Who is like God arbour]

In »Workforce« the Voyager was able to hit her own torpedo and the Romulan Captain as well.

Did this torpedo have anything special that would have prevented the Voyager from hitting its own torpedo?
Were the sensors eluded? Did the crew ignore the torpedo's target, vector or behaviour?
What was the range?

The torpedo was as far away as the two enemy ships. Otherwise it wouldn't have been able to detonate between them. Surly was the path of the own torpedo know. But it demonstrates nevertheless great accuracy.