Starfleet Jedi

This one is heavily inspired by this SBC thread, I decided to start this one, which seems more balanced.


. Synopsis

Three Borg Supercubes (BSC/SC) and three completed Death Stars II (DSII/DS2) are unleashed upon an untamed version of your dear Milky Way.
Aware of the basic specifics of the enemy, both forces start to move on, harvest, consume and destroy anything that stands in their path.

The Empire sees a haven of planets waiting to be conquered in the name of the exalted Emperor Palpatine. But first and foremost, they must get rid of the disgusting perversions of life that these half-machine, half-human Borg are.

Meanwhile, the cyborgs weigh the situation with a more pragmatic spirit. They seek matter to collect in order to increase the strength of their worldships and worlds to settle on to grow their numbers, but they've taken notice of the surprising presence of a species that is not without semblence to the fleshy parts they're partially made of, and could reveal useful for further assimilation. However, they are painfully aware of the new technology these beings possess, and no chances could be taken when dealing with these intruders. Death will be the main directive.



. Setting

The conflict occurs in a normal Milky Way. Neither forces have a star chart, they're in total unknown territory.
There's a grand total of ten thousand wild and Earth-like preterraformed worlds, themselves in orbit of main sequence G2-class stars. These inhabitable systems are evenly spread across the whole galaxy.

Both sides will prioritize destruction if there's no possibility or no security in trying to simply disable the enemy target(s).

Everytime a ship arrives in a system, all other ships are immediately warned about its location.
More, any ship cannot use any FTL mean of transportation for ten hours once a system has been entered. This even applies in system.
Said ship has to rely on sublight engines.
A ship is considered outside a system once it has entirely moved beyond the most distant body in orbit around the local star(s) or some other massive stellar body (not Uma Thurman).

FTL communication range: Ships are allowed to communicate any info over 5000 LY top.


Position of ships

1. First, one SC and one DS2 appear on both opposite ends of the Solar system, inside the system.
2. Secondly, a SC and another DS2 are placed inside the most distant opposite systems of the galaxy, at equal distance from Sol.
3. Third and last, the second premise is repeated 5 hours later. Both ships placed there first are well aware of the future arrival of their own reinforcements (which are coming from a long long way, voila). Time and location of reinfocements arrival is not open to alteration, of course.

. Data Files

• Borg Supercube
  
  x3
  Taken from the non-canon "Before Dishonor" book, each Supercube are at a stage they have absorbed the equivalent of a Doomsday Machine each, bot not a single planet or moon yet.
  Each Supercube transports 50,000 drones. They'll use internal shields as much as needed.
• Completed Death Star II
  
  x3
  Nearly twice as big as the first Death Star, twice the power generation (twice the firepower), full recharge time of one hour. Can dial shots down to 1%, and must wait five minute between each shot, no matter the yield.
  They are capable of the same accelerations the DSI can accomplish, but not dependant on gravity wells and orbits.
  Weapon density on the surface is equivalent to the one found on the first Death Star, times the surface area of the bigger and newer stations.
  Shields are classical, stopping both projectiles (destruction on contact) and energy weapons. They extend 2 km above the surface, and are as twice as strong as the DSI's shields.
  There's a maze of tens of thousands exhaust shafts with automatic shutters and laser cutters, bends and they're half a foot wide.
  Access tunnels leading to the core are completely sealed by hundreds of armoured doors in each one of them, with light turbolasers and force fields for internal anti-intrusion defense systems.
  Each general at the helm of a Death Star II knows his station by name, including all potential weaknesses. The crew hierarchy is as found in the first Death Star.
  For all other details, personnel number, onboard crafts, other weapons, etc., refer to the EU sources.
  Sources involving Curtis Saxton are absolutely excluded.
  In lack of further info for the DSIIs, assume the basic specs of a DSI then.

Ok, who takes it?

EDIT: Restriction on use of FTL.

Ok, this is a total failure.
Please, tell me the problem here, so I can try to find a solution.
The supercube could "eat" an ice moon and build a normal Cube out of it apparently (latest data from SBC), and do the same with Pluto to add superstructural mass.

Sorry, my head is still spinning from having read that whole crap in the SBC thread....
-Mike

Honestly, was this thread meant as a joke? Even if we take ICS yields as cannon the empire gets owned on two points:

1. Can not leave for 10 hours via FTL

2. Neither force has a star chart


The end... its over. One super cube impulses and then warps away and builds a mini collective. The other super cubes blow up the star systems they are in with Trillium, a byproduct of warp cores. Two death stars down, one to go. Last cube just rams the other death star traveling at warp 9.

"Sir, the borg just entered the system, they are located at-" Last words of a storm trooper.


Borg win, mini collective survives and rebuilds.

Hell, if they are really efficient about it, you could finish within the first 24 hours...



Frankly, I don't think threads like this are terribly productive... if that was taken straight from space battles, someone went out of their way to make sure the empire simply could not win the fight if the Borg so much as tried to win. Terribly unfair... don't even get me started on the 'starting locations.'

Mike DiCenso wrote:Sorry, my head is still spinning from having read that whole crap in the SBC thread....
-Mike

That's the Point45 effect I suppose.

Trinoya wrote:Honestly, was this thread meant as a joke? Even if we take ICS yields as cannon the empire gets owned on two points:

1. Can not leave for 10 hours via FTL

2. Neither force has a star chart


The end... its over. One super cube impulses and then warps away and builds a mini collective. The other super cubes blow up the star systems they are in with Trillium, a byproduct of warp cores. Two death stars down, one to go. Last cube just rams the other death star traveling at warp 9.

"Sir, the borg just entered the system, they are located at-" Last words of a storm trooper.


Borg win, mini collective survives and rebuilds.

Hell, if they are really efficient about it, you could finish within the first 24 hours...



Frankly, I don't think threads like this are terribly productive... if that was taken straight from space battles, someone went out of their way to make sure the empire simply could not win the fight if the Borg so much as tried to win. Terribly unfair... don't even get me started on the 'starting locations.'

Would a SC's impulse speed be that higher compared to a DSII's?

If a SC moves out of a system on impulse, assuming a DSII can't follow, the DSII only has to wait ten hours before hyperjumping out of the system at the coordinates based on the SC's latest reported trajectory, position and speed. Even if moving at c, it would only be ten light hours away from a DSII. What's the FTL sensor range for large constructs in SW?

What's the evidence of warp ramming?

Why would a DSII fail at threatening a SC with its weapons and defenses?

What's the evidence that the Borg would be able to bust star systems on and on? They didn't even do it for Earth, despite the clear intent of destroying humanity once and for all instead of fucking around.

What's the evidence that the intensity of the nova itself would be sufficient once it would reach the shields of a DSII?

Mike DiCenso wrote:Sorry, my head is still spinning from having read that whole crap in the SBC thread....
-Mike

Mr. Oragahn wrote: That's the Point45 effect I suppose.

Reading meaningless red herring gibberish from him and Vympel/Leo1 is more than I can stand, which is probably what they hoped to accomplish by doing it. Wear down the opposition, or get a moderator to shut down the thread.

Mr. Oragahn wrote: What's the evidence that the intensity of the nova itself would be sufficient once it would reach the shields of a DSII?

The gravitational binding energy of the Sun is 6.87×10^41 J. A supernova is rated at 1.2×10e44 J, and a hypernova at 1×10^46 J. Depending on how a trilithium weapon works to overcome the stability of a G-type star, it could be as much energy release as a hypernova. But the Sun's (G-type star) gravitational binding energy must be overcome at the very minimum. So that gives you your starting value, and you have to make your assumptions from there. What are the distances of the combatants from the system's star when it goes off? The energy intensity will go down by the inverse square law. The Death Star I "only" took a relatively small fraction of the 1e38J (maximum estimate) energy to overcome the Earth-like planet of Alderaan's gravitational binding energy because the cross-section of the DS is far too small to intercept all of the omnidirectional explosion. If we assume that the Death Star can pump into it's shields the full energy of a superlaser (again assuming generously that the superlaser is a DET weapon) to protect itself, then it is still possibly several orders of magnitude too weak to protect against a supernova or hypernova-level event, depending on how close it is to the star, even if it only takes a fraction of the energy.
-Mike

Would a SC's impulse speed be that higher compared to a DSII's?

Impulse speed has been seen to be variable, and one of the more concrete impulse figures was from Voyager, which was 2/3 light speed. I've never seen any ship in star wars traveling that fast without the assistance of FTL. This is of course a moot point since the Borg could simply transwarp near the edge of the system and impulse on out, thereby not leaving the system via FTL. The Borg should be able to accomplish this task faster than their sensor impaired Imperial friends.

If a SC moves out of a system on impulse, assuming a DSII can't follow, the DSII only has to wait ten hours before hyperjumping out of the system at the coordinates based on the SC's latest reported trajectory, position and speed. Even if moving at c, it would only be ten light hours away from a DSII. What's the FTL sensor range for large constructs in SW?

Those 10 hours are a horrible detriment... were talking Star Wars sensors vs Star Trek sensors, and were talking Hyper Space vs Transwarp... this isn't a contest. The Borg will be gone, long gone. We saw the Borg travel in MINUTES to earth...

This also, assumes, that the Borg don't just warp 10 minutes in a meaningless direction at warp 1, and then transwarp where ever else they are going.

What's the evidence of warp ramming?

Specifically? None, but we know that you can ram vessels and that vessels at warp are still in normal space and can therefore interact with vessels not at warp. One would argue the entire point of the deflector is to prevent you from ramming things while at warp. That said, even without warp ramming, the super cube should still have similar range and capabilities as its star trek counterparts and be able to... well.. pretty much ruin the day of any Death Star it came in contact with.

Why would a DSII fail at threatening a SC with its weapons and defenses?

Because it will never be able to target one? There is no rule preventing a ship from just warping around the system at FTL, as long as it doesn't leave. The borg could literally warp jump 20 light seconds to a new position and then jump another 20 light seconds behind the death star... before they even knew the cube was gone they'd be being fired upon.

What's the evidence that the Borg would be able to bust star systems on and on? They didn't even do it for Earth, despite the clear intent of destroying humanity once and for all instead of fucking around.

The only thing the Borg require is some Trilithium to ruin a stars day... See the entire plot of star trek generations. This also seems to be pretty common knowledge. They can also product Trilithium Resin from a warp core, which can render a planet uninhabitable for fifty years to humans.

And they are trying to assimilate earth, not blow it up... their goal is not to destroy, but to capture... a fact people often forget about the Borg... however this scenario has made it clear that it is in their best interest to just destroy the three death stars.

What's the evidence that the intensity of the nova itself would be sufficient once it would reach the shields of a DSII?

Since I've not ruled out any specific use of the Expanded Universe, and doubt it was ruled out in the original thread... The Grand Admiral Thrawn Trilogy made it extremely clear that the empire and pretty much everyone else had a terrible difficulty dealing with just the heat produced by a sun... much less the energy produced from a super nova.

That said, this is all moot:


FACT: A cube can leave any system 10 hours before its counterpart at the very start of the scenario.
FACT: A cube has a massive tactical advantage with the use of Warp Drive inside a solar system, even without warp strafing.
FACT: A cube does not ever have to engage a death star in any capacity in which the death star could fire back.
FACT: The Borg are expert adapters and can make use of many resources that the Empire simply can't... it will also have the immediate functional use of any civilization that they choose to assimilate... The Empire will not.

Even if I assume that Hyper Drive and Transwarp Conduits have similar speeds (which I have extreme doubts) the Borg will always have the sensor and range advantage, not to mention the personnel advantage to boot. Logistics for the win.

Trinoya wrote:Impulse speed has been seen to be variable, and one of the more concrete impulse figures was from Voyager, which was 2/3 light speed. I've never seen any ship in star wars traveling that fast without the assistance of FTL. This is of course a moot point since the Borg could simply transwarp near the edge of the system and impulse on out, thereby not leaving the system via FTL. The Borg should be able to accomplish this task faster than their sensor impaired Imperial friends.

The higher-end impulse speeds observed, such as the E-1701's run from Earth to Jupiter in ST:TMP in 1.8 hours gives us .73c. In BoBW, the E-D travels from just beyond Saturn to Earth in 19 minutes at impulse power, which, assuming that low timing was the result of time dilation effects, would put impulse at around .95c. The maximum velocity of the DS1 in ANH is 0.00167c. Death Stars are far too slow.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:What's the evidence of warp ramming?

Trinoya wrote:Specifically? None, but we know that you can ram vessels and that vessels at warp are still in normal space and can therefore interact with vessels not at warp. One would argue the entire point of the deflector is to prevent you from ramming things while at warp. That said, even without warp ramming, the super cube should still have similar range and capabilities as its star trek counterparts and be able to... well.. pretty much ruin the day of any Death Star it came in contact with.

Actually, yes there is evidence. In "Best of Both Worlds, Part 2", Riker orders a collision course at warp power. We have also seen in "Scorpion, Part 2" of two ships colliding at warp.
-Mike

Unless the power levels observed in Trek have somehow been ramped up somehow I see no way the Borgs could win against just about anything from the SW universe let alone Death Stars!

Why? If anything, the observed SW power levels in anything outside the Death Stars is rather low overall compared to Trek in the actual G-level canon and most of the C-level EU, the exception being the highly suspect ICS books.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:Why? If anything, the observed SW power levels in anything outside the Death Stars is rather low overall compared to Trek in the actual G-level canon and most of the C-level EU, the exception being the highly suspect ICS books.
-Mike

No! So you are arguing that Sexton 200GT to half a terathon or more TL firepower scales are wrong? I find that refreshingly delicious, I thought that by now everybody had bent over to the will of the Wong! :D

Hey, I'd totally buy it if it existed anywhere else in the SW universe.

PunkMaister wrote:

Mike DiCenso wrote:Why? If anything, the observed SW power levels in anything outside the Death Stars is rather low overall compared to Trek in the actual G-level canon and most of the C-level EU, the exception being the highly suspect ICS books.
-Mike

No! So you are arguing that Sexton 200GT to half a teraton or more TL firepower scales are wrong? I find that refreshingly delicious, I thought that by now everybody had bent over to the will of the Wong! :D

Um, no. Few people here on SFJN actually accept the Saxton/ICS numbers as valid. There have been plenty of prior calculations and examinations of SW technology and firepower here and elsewhere (ST-vs-SW.Net forums, and Strek-vs-Swars.Net forum) that refutes that, often by simply pointing "errors" in scaling and assumptions made. Please take the time to go through the past threads here to help get yourself acquainted with them.
-Mike

Huh, for some reason, it seems I forgot to post this before modifying the thread. :/

I'd like to point out the modification brought to the thread, regarding the use of FTL drives once a ship has entered any system.

Trinoya wrote:

Would a SC's impulse speed be that higher compared to a DSII's?

Impulse speed has been seen to be variable, and one of the more concrete impulse figures was from Voyager, which was 2/3 light speed. I've never seen any ship in star wars traveling that fast without the assistance of FTL. This is of course a moot point since the Borg could simply transwarp near the edge of the system and impulse on out, thereby not leaving the system via FTL. The Borg should be able to accomplish this task faster than their sensor impaired Imperial friends.

That's for a small craft like Voyager, with no indication about the acceleration.
How does it translate to bigger vessels or even stations?

Those 10 hours are a horrible detriment... were talking Star Wars sensors vs Star Trek sensors

Aside from the very special ability granted in this thread for instant FTL ranges over 5000 LY for comms, where are we generally in SW and ST for FTL sensor ranges?

What's the evidence of warp ramming?

Specifically? None, but we know that you can ram vessels and that vessels at warp are still in normal space and can therefore interact with vessels not at warp. One would argue the entire point of the deflector is to prevent you from ramming things while at warp.

This doesn't mean ramming at warp is any effective safe to reach your target faster. But once the reality of the warp distorsion meets the reality of the object flying outside warp, who can say that the impact will generate the relativistic KE due to supraluminla velocities exactly?

That said, even without warp ramming, the super cube should still have similar range and capabilities as its star trek counterparts and be able to... well.. pretty much ruin the day of any Death Star it came in contact with.

What are the reasons behind this claim? I shouldn't ask you that.

Why would a DSII fail at threatening a SC with its weapons and defenses?

Because it will never be able to target one? There is no rule preventing a ship from just warping around the system at FTL, as long as it doesn't leave. The borg could literally warp jump 20 light seconds to a new position and then jump another 20 light seconds behind the death star... before they even knew the cube was gone they'd be being fired upon.

Aside from the fact that they never use that tactic as part of standard battle schemes, the rules have been altered to prevent abuse of FTL hops, as well as to circumvent the ability of any ship to leave at FTL for ten hours, once it has entered any system.

What's the evidence that the Borg would be able to bust star systems on and on? They didn't even do it for Earth, despite the clear intent of destroying humanity once and for all instead of fucking around.

The only thing the Borg require is some Trilithium to ruin a stars day... See the entire plot of star trek generations. This also seems to be pretty common knowledge. They can also product Trilithium Resin from a warp core, which can render a planet uninhabitable for fifty years to humans.

Just having trilithium on its own may not be enough to build a star buster. You would also likely require a given device.

And they are trying to assimilate earth, not blow it up... their goal is not to destroy, but to capture... a fact people often forget about the Borg... however this scenario has made it clear that it is in their best interest to just destroy the three death stars.

No, the OP makes them killing machines, and in the book is appears the Borg were not going to mess around either, destroying and killing first this time, taking no chances at failure, but even in that book, they didn't use any star buster.

What's the evidence that the intensity of the nova itself would be sufficient once it would reach the shields of a DSII?

Since I've not ruled out any specific use of the Expanded Universe, and doubt it was ruled out in the original thread... The Grand Admiral Thrawn Trilogy made it extremely clear that the empire and pretty much everyone else had a terrible difficulty dealing with just the heat produced by a sun... much less the energy produced from a super nova.

IIRC, they were as close enough to the Athegan star as Nkllon was, and the exposed surface of this planet was melted constantly melted during daytime.
Someone would need to pick the book and check the references to the surface of Nkllon and the effects of Athega's star on it.

That said, this is all moot:

1. FACT: A cube can leave any system 10 hours before its counterpart at the very start of the scenario.
2. FACT: A cube has a massive tactical advantage with the use of Warp Drive inside a solar system, even without warp strafing.
3. FACT: A cube does not ever have to engage a death star in any capacity in which the death star could fire back.
4. FACT: The Borg are expert adapters and can make use of many resources that the Empire simply can't... it will also have the immediate functional use of any civilization that they choose to assimilate... The Empire will not.

Even if I assume that Hyper Drive and Transwarp Conduits have similar speeds (which I have extreme doubts) the Borg will always have the sensor and range advantage, not to mention the personnel advantage to boot. Logistics for the win.

1. Yes, I realized that. I modified it now. The point is that I wanted any ship to be a slug once its puts a foot in any system.
2. Same as above.
3. All cubes attack rather classically. It will be a random target.
4. They can use local matter in a system. However, it takes time, and ships are stuck to STL drives in such cases.

PunkMaister wrote:Unless the power levels observed in Trek have somehow been ramped up somehow I see no way the Borgs could win against just about anything from the SW universe let alone Death Stars!

IMO, BOBW shows a regular cube effortlessly shrugging off 100+ GT/sec. Other incidents have seen them harmed by rather less energy than that. It's something of an open question as to whether or not a cube could handle AOTC:ICS scale 200 GT salvos, one that depends wholly on which benchmarks you use for the cube's durability.

If you take TDIC as the benchmark of Trek firepower in the same way that Saxtonites take his BDZ calculations as the benchmark of Wars firepower, it's possible to claim that a Borg cube can handle simultaneous bombardment by a thousand Saxtonian star destroyers. However, I think it's quite ridiculous.

I think it's perfectly plausible to claim that the superlaser - which is a wholly unique weapon with devastating destructive effects - could blow up a cube. Or supercube. But the problem with this scenario is that a Death Star is an instrument of destruction, while the supercubes are instruments of creation.

The Imperials must build, convert, intimidate, and reproduce the slow way, while the cubes are using spectacular Trek EU nanoridiculous assimilation techniques. The result is that the cube on the other end of the galaxy has a multi-system Borg civilization well on the way before it ever engages Imperials. In fact, since there's a 5,000 LY comm range and the far ships are seeded on the opposite side of the galaxy from one another, it'll probably be years before they grope their way into contact with the distant forces.