Starfleet Jedi

Kitsune wrote:This came up because my roommate is into Star Trek Sims......
Apparently, he has been giving ships in the Sim interphasic cloaks
Is there any way of hurting a ship with one?

Covenant wrote:The phase cloak is fairly useless overall. Think of it this way--a normal cloak makes you invisible. A phase cloak makes you invisible and lets things pass through you with low interactivity. What's the difference out in space? Rarely will you fight in a dense planetary ring full of rock chunks, so the phase aspect is nearly pointless. It can make you mostly resistant to attack. But since this is Star Trek, let us examine it in a bit more depth--since that depth is very shallow:

Interphase Cloaks don't cloak the ship, they take it out of phase, which ghosts it. This is the technology used, as stolen from Memory Alpha:

A molecular phase inverter is a device that can alter the structure of normal matter, putting it out of phase with normal matter. Matter that has been "phased" can no longer make physical contact with normal matter. However "phased" matter can make physical contact with "phased" matter that has the same phase variance. Phased matter is also unaffected by external energy sources such as heat, allowing a phased object to be able to, in theory, go inside a planet. In addition, conventional weapons would be completely ineffective against phased matter.

Three different powers, the Klingon Empire, the Romulan Empire and the Federation (with the latter being done illegally) attempted to combine a molecular phase inverter with a cloaking device, creating an interphase cloaking device or an interphase generator (either of which would have provided a substantial tactical advantage), all with limited success. (TNG: "The Next Phase", "The Pegasus"; ENT: "These Are the Voyages...")

As you can see, there's a big gaping hole in this equation. Phased matter can be interacted with if you phase the weapon to the same phase variance. Though none of that makes any sense, it does mean that the frequency-adjusting weapons that you see people use so often would be able to calibrate and then fire again, whacking the ship even though it had been phased. If Interphasic Cloaks became a popular option, you'd have Phase Inversion Torpedoes at the ready to blow them away before too long. Just pre-phase a few from one tube and leave at the ready.

Furthermore, it is also seen that interphasic material (as demonstrated on Voyager multiple times, where interphase cloaks are not uncommon third-party plot devices) can be blocked by forcefields of high enough power, so it's not as if an Interphase Cloak gives a ship shield-penetrating weaponry. Though the vessel itself might be able to push through, small masses (like people) can't walk through high-level shielding and, as stated, the Interphase cloak can be knocked off by an appropriate magic phase blast. I would also assume that a ship in phase cloak mode would have their shields lowered to prevent them from being detected that way, so overall if you can manage to spot them you could damage them extremely easily. Such modifications aren't that bad, because instead of being literally cloaked, they're still emitting, just on a phased variance or whatever. In Voyager, there was an episode where phase cloaked individuals were experimenting on the crew, and Seven's implant was modified to let her see them. That, plus the ability to phase-out a phaser or torpedo, would make it really hard for a phased ship to do anything useful.

So really, what the phase cloak lets you do is slip through solid material, which would be nice for a shuttlecraft but useless for a big ship. If he adds phase cloaks, make sure he adds in the ability for opposed captains to modify their weapons and sensors to match it, so it becomes little more than a first strike weapon.

PunkMaister wrote:OK does this phasing works say in the same manner that has been observed in Stargate? If so could it not be theoretically possible to phase weapons like photons torpedoes and then having them unphase on their own as they are about to hit their target or better yet home in yet phased to the largest energy source and then boom! Well is just an idea, provided they work more or less on the same principles...

The Corporal wrote:The thing is that he’s right. What’s the point in having a device that lets you pass through matter if you can't do anything with it while you’re cloaked? You can't fire or attack anyone, so it is tactically no different then a regular cloak. A cool piece of kit to be sure but I don't see where it gives much of an advantage in space.

I could see several interesting ground based uses however. Like in INS with the spy facility in the cliff.

ILikeDeathNote wrote:

The Corporal wrote:The thing is that he’s right. What’s the point in having a device that lets you pass through matter if you can't do anything with it while you’re cloaked? You can't fire or attack anyone, so it is tactically no different then a regular cloak. A cool piece of kit to be sure but I don't see where it gives much of an advantage in space.

I could see several interesting ground based uses however. Like in INS with the spy facility in the cliff.

Yeah, pretty much. Of course you can spy on their ships too, I guess, just as that one Romulan was running around during TNG "The Next Phase"

Mike DiCenso wrote:Why would it be "expensive"? It would be an enormous tactical advantage if you can sit with impunity and plink away at your enemy while they in turn cannot touch you. Phased photon torpedoes or other missile weapons can be set to remain in phase until they have passed through shields and penetrated deep inside the target vessel, then phase back into normal space, detonate, and cause maximum possible damage, or preferably the total destruction of the enemy ship.

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:Why would it be "expensive"? It would be an enormous tactical advantage if you can sit with impunity and plink away at your enemy while they in turn cannot touch you. Phased photon torpedoes or other missile weapons can be set to remain in phase until they have passed through shields and penetrated deep inside the target vessel, then phase back into normal space, detonate, and cause maximum possible damage, or preferably the total destruction of the enemy ship.

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

PunkMaister wrote:

Mike DiCenso wrote:Why would it be "expensive"? It would be an enormous tactical advantage if you can sit with impunity and plink away at your enemy while they in turn cannot touch you. Phased photon torpedoes or other missile weapons can be set to remain in phase until they have passed through shields and penetrated deep inside the target vessel, then phase back into normal space, detonate, and cause maximum possible damage, or preferably the total destruction of the enemy ship.

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

Now you get it but to be fair we know from both Star Trek and Stargate that phasing does not completely eliminate interactivity between the phased object/individual and unphased matter but that it does a much more reduced capacity one would still have to proof it can phase thru really thick armor and so on but the concept is very much sound, it is believed that Drones in Stargate work in a fashion like this at least partially. It might explain their impressive penetrating abilities...

The Corporal wrote: The resources for these things have to come from somewhere and fitting millions of torpedoes with these things wouldn't be "cheap". For that matter we don't even know if they could be fitted or powered by a torpedo

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

The Corporal wrote:It would simply be easier to do what I suggest from a resource and logistics standpoint, not to mention fitting them to just ships reduces the risk that a dud will hand the enemy a fully functional example of your new uber-tech.

Besides, it’s just easier to win without ever confronting a fleet. Sun-Tzu and all that.

Mike DiCenso wrote:
True, however phase cloaks aren't very large, at least the models we've seen used, even the experimental Pegasus cloaking device were quite small, and no one stated that it would take all of the ship's power to operate.

Any use of the tech runs the risk of handing an example to the enemy. That's the nature of warfare. And while you can blow the hell out of someone's bases and homeworlds, you still have to deal with their fleets at some point. Can't just leave them roaming around and hoping they run out of supplies and or the will to fight.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

PunkMaister wrote:

Mike DiCenso wrote:Why would it be "expensive"? It would be an enormous tactical advantage if you can sit with impunity and plink away at your enemy while they in turn cannot touch you. Phased photon torpedoes or other missile weapons can be set to remain in phase until they have passed through shields and penetrated deep inside the target vessel, then phase back into normal space, detonate, and cause maximum possible damage, or preferably the total destruction of the enemy ship.

Now imagine the havoc you can wreak if you can do this everytime to the largest and most powerful of the enemy starships. Or as you suggest, go right through a defending fleet without them knowing you are there, then bombarding planets and facilities without fear of reprisal, staying both invisible and invunerable all the while.
-Mike

Now you get it but to be fair we know from both Star Trek and Stargate that phasing does not completely eliminate interactivity between the phased object/individual and unphased matter but that it does a much more reduced capacity one would still have to proof it can phase thru really thick armor and so on but the concept is very much sound, it is believed that Drones in Stargate work in a fashion like this at least partially. It might explain their impressive penetrating abilities...

I think it depends largely on what you are trying to do with the phase cloak, at least from a Trek standpoint since the E-D while using the illegal Pegasus phase cloak seemed to be not only able to pass through kilometers of an asteroid's rock with ease, but once outside the asteroid it remained undetected by a Romulan warbird dispite being less than a couple kilometers right in front of it. The same was true of Ro and Geordi in "The Next Phase". It took extremely high levels of interactions with normal phase matter to leave behind technobabble chroniton particles for them to be detected. When a phase cloaked individual is still trying to maintain some level of interactivity with normal phase space and time, that is when they seem to be more vunerable.
-Mike

The Corporal wrote: Nor do we have any statements saying they don't. I see no reason to assume it can be done but neither do I see a reason to think the thing is practical on a large scale either, we've only seen it two or three times. And one of those times, it was failing.

Mike DiCenso wrote: Any use of the tech runs the risk of handing an example to the enemy. That's the nature of warfare. And while you can blow the hell out of someone's bases and homeworlds, you still have to deal with their fleets at some point. Can't just leave them roaming around and hoping they run out of supplies and or the will to fight.
-Mike

The Corporal wrote:Yes but a starship can self-destruct.

The Corporal wrote: Why can't you leave them roaming? If they are cut off from supplies then they are pooched. Sooner or later they will have to raid you for them and using your fancy new cloak you can keep tabs on them and engage them at a time of your choosing. Which gives you an advantage.