Starfleet Jedi

In discussion at theforce.net, I think the answer to the clone armor's seeming spaceworthiness came to me. (Actually it sort of already had in the Clone Wars tech thread, but it didn't all crystallize until now.)

The issue focuses on the seeming contradiction between the multi-minute clone survival in a low-pressure environment seen to kill unsuited clones within seconds during the Malevolence trilogy versus the fact that a simple airborne virus could make suited clones sick in "Mystery of a Thousand Moons", the second part of the Blue Shadow Virus duology.

The goal is to explain the seeming contradiction with regards to Occam . . . that is, no extra doodads assumed and no special-case ad hoc rationalizations (especially of the popular "character x is stupid" variety).

So yes, the clone trooper suits have a more-or-less airtight "pressure suit", to use the phrasing of the medical droid, and as per his statement the suit "provided some protection".

There would be a simple air compressor (probably in the "backpack" area) that compresses the local air in lower-pressure environments up to a standard one atmosphere. There may even be some minor filtration, but not enough to block Blue Shadow virus.

This would be helpful insofar as preventing clones from having to become acclimated to any particular atmospheric pressure. Taking a clone from a sea level pressure and dropping him on Everest, for instance, would likely result in a dead clone when he found himself weak and having difficulty functioning after significant exertion, much less full combat. This would have the side benefit of keeping clone combat crews alive for a short time in the event of rapid decompression, a good idea in wartime.

The atmosphere they were in during the Malevolence incident featured low pressure and perhaps a not-entirely-life-supporting mixture of gases. Either the pressure was too low for the suit to sustain the proper life-supporting pressure, or it couldn't work for the whole time required, or there was a lot of nasty poisonous gas, or some combination of all of those.

In the bioweapon lab on Naboo, the system was either not in use because it was not needed, or else it always functions to some extent (simple ventilation) and naturally allowed the virus to gain entry.

This concept would, I think, handily explain both the pressure suits allowing survival in the low-pressure environment around Abregado, and their ability to be sickened by Blue Shadow. But it's not so much ubertech that we would expect them to have a space suit scuba tank hidden on their person somewhere. (Though given the tiny Jedi underwater breathing apparatus, I don't see why the clone suits couldn't be used for underwater operation, too.)

Satisfying concept?

Underwater operations would require a specialized suits, one that is probably more streamlined, perhaps less massive, with greater air supply and eventually, for a Mark II or something, a pair of minifans.

Underwater operation was distinct to my mind from underwater operations. Preferably, yes, true underwater operations would involve a different set of gear, but it isn't like they would instantly drown in normal gear if they went underwater.

I don't even know if they could swim in normal armor . . . we have no real data on how heavy it is compared to the extra buoyancy of the pressure suit.

Judging by your post I'm guessing you're sticking to the argument about how there was actually a thin atmosphere around the place where the starship battle took place? I can't agree with that. Yes, technically speaking you'd have a right to claim as much given the light diffraction and whatnot. But it's just so obviously not the intent of the author that I'm going to say no to it.

l33telboi wrote:Judging by your post I'm guessing you're sticking to the argument about how there was actually a thin atmosphere around the place where the starship battle took place? I can't agree with that. Yes, technically speaking you'd have a right to claim as much given the light diffraction and whatnot. But it's just so obviously not the intent of the author that I'm going to say no to it.

Just as Ira Behr and company knew (especially after the last shot of DS9's fifth season), and just as Lucas knows by keeping such firm control over every aspect, writers and producers don't work alone. Each episode is the product of many talents, and sometimes what the writers want and intend just doesn't appear on screen. Sometimes it doesn't even appear in their own final draft. We can lament the loss, but in the end it's gone, and only what we have on screen remains. It's a bit more complicated than the old saying Spiner quotes of "if it ain't on the page, it ain't on the stage", but the idea is similar.

In my opinion, the writers did not intend for the area to be a vacuum. Otherwise there would be no point to referring to "pressure" exclusively, as opposed to having people say 'vacuum' or simply 'lack of air'. Certainly if it was meant to be a vacuum, someone would've asked why the clones could take in a lungful of it to scream.

I don't know why they intended it to be a low pressure environment . . . perhaps, as with the "Jedi Crash" opening, the action was moved from its initial location to another (from space to atmosphere, in that case). Or perhaps they thought the gases of all the destroyed ships would be floating about. Who knows?

More importantly, who cares? Writer's intent has never been canon, and that's a dangerous road to go down, besides . . . it takes us from analysis of evidence to mind-reading.

The show as presented is canon. And between the episode's sound design, CGI, and even the writing, there is simply no evidence of a full vacuum. Until someone manages to make that case in the first place rather than merely assuming a vacuum in spite of all other evidence I see no reason to change my view.

They are in space. There is absolutely no way the writers could've or would've meant for it to be a pressurized environment. IMO, to think so is utter poppycock. The 'if it's on-screen it's fact' rule has its limitations. If we go by your logic then there is no such thing as vacuum in either Star Wars or Star Trek, because of sound in space. Sometimes visual effects guys mess up. In this case they didn’t even mess up, they probably didn’t know that light doesn’t diffract in vacuum.

In any case, it’s worth noting that the decoded version of the episode says that the reason the blue shadow virus managed to infect the troopers was because ‘the helmets couldn’t protect them from it’.

I hoped we could agree to disagree on this, but now you're pushing the issue.

l33telboi wrote:They are in space.

Correct, they are in space very near an unidentified body, possibly the Abregado sun. However, you assume this means they are in vacuum, in clear contradiction to multiple pieces of evidence, and you ask me to disprove this assumption. That is wrong.

Please provide evidence that this was a full vacuum or withdraw your claim.

There is absolutely no way the writers could've or would've meant for it to be a pressurized environment. IMO, to think so is utter poppycock. The 'if it's on-screen it's fact' rule has its limitations.

1. You cannot read minds. You do not know what they were thinking or the process involved in the production. So your "absolute" is just something you made up, and it is therefore irrelevant.

Please provide evidence that this was a full vacuum according to the writers, or withdraw your claim.

Please also provide an argument for the notion that the writers trump all other parties at all times (e.g. that what they have in mind but fail to get on screen is more canon than the final episode as created and shown on screen), recalling if you will that in Trek's case the writers have revised their own plans for the following season after seeing what visual effects were created for the season finale.

2. Good heavens, man, these people you're assigning such wisdom to made the debris field of three destroyed ships an enormous mass so thick with huge parts that it took 90 seconds at full thrust and wild maneuvering to escape it.

Even assuming the ship was half as fast as the Falcon, that makes the debris field at least 9 kilometers long along the course the Twilight was taking, and going off the sensor graphics of a debris field surrounding half the Abregado body the field was larger still. The Abregado body had to be at least 20 or so kilometers in size in order to compare properly with Malevolence, meaning the debris field had to be at least about 40 kilometers long and full of ship parts. If the Abregado body was a planet or real red dwarf, the debris field would've been a moon's-worth of ship parts. They could've built a shipyard there and made a whole fleet out of that mess.

But you assume that everyone involved was both bringing their scientific A game and of the same mind as you? Seriously?

3. The rule about things on screen being fact is fine, because implied in that concept (though you left it out) is that we go with what the evidence reasonably suggests and account for clear error.

Were it just that the droid lights had some atmospheric refraction but all other evidence pointed to vacuum, we would chalk up the refraction to error.

Were it just that un-armored and un-helmeted clones could draw in a lungful of breath for screaming but all other evidence pointed to vacuum, we would chalk up the sound editing to error.

Were it just that the term "pressure" was used exclusively, but all other evidence pointed to a complete lack of it, we would chalk up the phrasing to error. (Or at least we could . . . to be consistent, you would have to start arguing that it wasn't a vacuum because the writers didn't say so.)

The problem is that we have all three co-existing, and co-existing in the presence of an unknown space body, and co-existing in the presence of ships built by people who seem to commonly build ships for atmospheric operation, so it isn't like it would make us freak out if there was a low pressure atmosphere there.

If we go by your logic then there is no such thing as vacuum in either Star Wars or Star Trek, because of sound in space.

No, that is a straw man. You are attempting to fallaciously take my conclusion about multiple pieces of evidence about a specific case and apply it to something else.

On a related note, had you paid attention, you would've noted that at no point have I used the fact that the various characters could communicate and that we could hear them to be evidence of atmosphere. Why? Because it is a convention that we can hear people in spacesuits talking even though the camera is not inside the suit. You can say we pick up on their radio signals or we have an omnipotent-listener perspective, or whatever, but there it is anyway.

Similarly, I have more or less dropped the point that the smoke trails from the destroyed ships is evidence of atmosphere, because while it clearly was in regards to Episode III, this series seems to be trying to replicate the Battle of Coruscant look with most ship battles, leaving lots of non-expanding smoke and whatnot. In other words, the smoke thing is a stylistic convention with this show.

Sometimes visual effects guys mess up. In this case they didn’t even mess up, they probably didn’t know that light doesn’t diffract in vacuum.

It's not just VFX, here. Pretending that's all it was does not help you. As I explained in the last message, we have

1. The sound design of screaming clones inhaling outside the busted pod
2. The clear evidence of the visual effects regarding light scatter, et cetera
3. The phrasing of the writers which does not make any reference to vacuum, and instead supports the position that there was some sort of low pressure environment.

You protest against this by:

1. Assuming the vacuum you seek to prove.
2. Claiming telepathic discernment of writer intent (apparently not even what they actually wrote, but their intent!).
3. Ignoring the sound design and writing altogether.
4. Not ignoring the visual effects, but dismissing them by claiming they are an error.
5. Protesting the standard analysis techniques in favor of your clairvoyant knowledge of writer intent.

In short, you have ignored several facts, hand-waved away others, and you are opposing the entire method by which we make determinations of what is real in regards to the shows.

By your way of doing things, all manner of absurdities can be declared as true provided we (1) assume the absurdity, (2) declare the absurdity to be the intent of the writers, (3) ignore most counterevidence, (4) declare what counterevidence we cannot ignore as VFX error, and (5) bemoan the rules of evidence and epistemology.

You don't see what a can of worms that opens up? Hell, at that point there's no point arguing with SDN types.

In any case, it’s worth noting that the decoded version of the episode says that the reason the blue shadow virus managed to infect the troopers was because ‘the helmets couldn’t protect them from it’.

Meaning that armored clones do not have airtight seals, which they would have to if they were going to survive any length of time in a true vacuum, and thus confirming my position. Thanks.

Now, can we agree to disagree, or do you wish to push further? I'll take this as far as you like, but until you start trying to prove your case I still can't find a reason to change my position, because as far as I can tell at present I'm on much more solid ground.

Well, if you think the argument is logical, fine. Just get used to the fact that no one else will agree with you on that point, and probably will stop taking you seriously if you ever present the argument in a debate. There's not much else to say.

I'm afraid I have to disagree here too L33telboi. I've tried to figure out some other conclusion... something that I can infer without stretching to help explain both the lights and the screams (the pressure argument I attribute to people who don't know what they're talking about)... sadly that scream is extremely irrefutable... He had to have breathed something in to produce it...

Do I think that it was writers intent? Certainly not... I believe that the writers aren't well versed in physics and science in general, much less about pressure and atmosphere... As such, I'm afraid that I'm with DS on this...

Hopefully we will get a 'special edition' one day to remove it... but till then, we simply can't ignore it because we don't like it and feel it was just bad sound on the part of the creators. If that was the case well... we wouldn't have people arguing sub kiloton weapons in star trek and gigaton weapons supposedly supported by the movies in star wars.

l33telboi wrote:{folks} will stop taking you seriously if you ever present the argument {...}

I'm analyzing the technology from a CGI cartoon continuation of a sci-fi movie. I have a website comparing the technologies of two sci-fi franchises. I have another website going into minute detail over their canon policies.

When was being taken seriously ever a plausible goal? ;-)