Size of the Federation vs Galactic Empire's Size

[Youngla0450]

I am a new user here, but yet I am fully interested in these debates. As such I am posting here.

______

Now, comparing the size of the Galactic Empire to the United Federation of Planets, the Empire (Star Wars) is victorious over the Federation (Star Trek).

Because:

*The Galactic Empire consists of some twelve million member and conquered worlds, as well fifty million colonies, governorships, protectorates, and puppet states, spread some 110,000 light years (in effect..a entire galaxy) while:

*The United Federation of Planets consists of some one hundred fifty member worlds, as well one thousand colonies, semi-autonomous territories, and protectorates, spread some 8,000 light years (in effect, a measly portion of one quadrant of the "Star Trek" galaxy).

Please give me your thoughts and debates, but please be organized, detailed, and respectful.

[Khas]

Actually, in the ANH novelization, written by Lucas himself, he said that the Empire controls a fairly small part of the galaxy it's in. While Tarkin said that the Empire controlled "a million systems", you have to remember, a million is a pretty small number in a galaxy with a hundred billion stars. Hell, in our own galaxy, if you made a sphere a thousand light-years wide, centered around our own sun, that sphere would contain 50 million stars. That includes the space between them.

Also, the GE does not cover the whole galaxy. If it did, why would there be "Wild Space", or the Unknown Regions. Or even other governments, like the Corporate Sector, Ssi-ruuvi Imperium, Hapan Consortium, Chiss Ascendancy, Tion Hegemony, Hutt Space, and various others?

[Youngla0450]

Actually, in the ANH novelization, written by Lucas himself, he said that the Empire controls a fairly small part of the galaxy it's in. While Tarkin said that the Empire controlled "a million systems", you have to remember, a million is a pretty small number in a galaxy with a hundred billion stars. Hell, in our own galaxy, if you made a sphere a thousand light-years wide, centered around our own sun, that sphere would contain 50 million stars. That includes the space between them.

Also, the GE does not cover the whole galaxy. If it did, why would there be "Wild Space", or the Unknown Regions. Or even other governments, like the Corporate Sector, Ssi-ruuvi Imperium, Hapan Consortium, Chiss Ascendancy, Tion Hegemony, Hutt Space, and various others?

The Galactic Empire spans most of the galaxy it rules. About 60% of the Star Wars galaxy has been explored, and at least 58% is ruled by the Empire. Also, those minor governments, including the Ssi-Ruuvi, Hapans, Chiss, Tionese, Hutts, and others are particularly weak and pitiful in size. While the Empire spans millions of systems, these other governments span maybe dozens or hundreds of systems. Their militaries are small, and economies weaker then the Empire's. Also, the Ssi-ruuvi are Imperial allies, the Hapans pay tribute, the Chiss are Imperial contacts, the Tionese are Imperial puppets, the Hutts are commercial allies.

[Khas]

If the Ssi-ruuk are so small and pitiful, then how come they were kicking the Empire's ass at the Battle of Bakura?

[Youngla0450]

If the Ssi-ruuk are so small and pitiful, then how come they were kicking the Empire's ass at the Battle of Bakura?

That was after Palpatine was dead. He had made a deal with the Ssi-ruuk, in which they would gain control of Bakura, and some other worlds, in exchange for the Empire gaining military drone technology. Apparently, the Emperor did not inform the rest of the military and government before his death. Also, the pitiful New Republic was trying to turf the Empire out, and thus internal difficulties also allowed the Ssi-ruuk to easily invade Bakura.

[Khas]

Oh, you've got to be kidding me. I know about Palpatine's deal with the Ssi-ruuk, and I know that the Empire was recently defeated, but if they really were as powerful as you said they were, they should have had more than enough ships to defeat the Ssi-ruuk. Not to mention, Bakura was only days after Endor. The Empire should have still had PLENTY of vessels if what you said was true. Come to think of it, you sound like a very Pro-Empire fanboy. Not just Pro-Wars, but Pro-Empire in particular. Did you by chance ever post on ASVS under the name "StarDestroyerAvenger"?

[User1356]

I am a new user here, but yet I am fully interested in these debates. As such I am posting here.

And you couldn't have picked a worse place

[Roondar]

I am a new user here, but yet I am fully interested in these debates. As such I am posting here.

And you couldn't have picked a worse place

Quite true, over here you will need to use logic, you will need to play by the rules (no Ad Hominem's over here) and you'll have no bunch of indoctrinated Star Wars fans to aid you!

There could not be a worse place for civil discource and debate surely. A place where you can win a debate by being courteous and proving what you argue for. Just plain horrible!

/sarcasm

[The Dude]

Yeah that recent cross forum debate sure proved that, huh?

[Roondar]

Granted, that was not our brightest hour.
Personally, I frown uppon cross-site debating anyway.

That said, that's just one occurance. It's not like it's the standard here, which is my point.

[Mike DiCenso]

Yeah that recent cross forum debate sure proved that, huh?

I don't think it was either SFJN's, nor SDN's finest hour in that respect. However, while Kor and WILGA are likely to be regretful for their behavior, I doubt you can say the same for Serafina and company on SDN.
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

Yes, I am a pro-Star Wars debater, but I also love Star Trek. I have watched both Captain Kirk and Captain Picard on television and on the Internet.

[Mike DiCenso]

I am a new user here, but yet I am fully interested in these debates. As such I am posting here.

I will say this, though it may seem a bit rude, that I am suspicious of your motives as your first postings here seem designed to be shiny troll bait.

*The Galactic Empire consists of some twelve million member and conquered worlds, as well fifty million colonies, governorships, protectorates, and puppet states, spread some 110,000 light years (in effect..a entire galaxy) while:

Is that a statement of fact on your part? Where are your resouces to back this up? How does this 12 million member number jive with the higher canon "million star systems" of the ANH novelization? Or how does it also jive with the 10,000 systems defecting to the Seperatists in AoTC (stated in both the movie and novelization), which constituted a splitting of the Republic in half as per Papatine's own statements, which were not in any way disputed by anyone. Thus we may conclude that the GR was not more than 20-30 thousand members prior to the Clone Wars.

The highest Galactic Republic membership statement in the G-level canon places membership at no more than 100,000 star systems. If the GE, the inheritor of the GR, somehow gained dominion over 1 million worlds, they cannot necessarily be populated or well-populated worlds (think Hoth, Tatooine or Dagobah). So where does that leave us? No more than 100,000 worlds, with no more than 900,000 or so colonies, protectorates and so on scattered across... where? The movie-canon maps as seen in AoTC indicate that the GR did not occupy the whole of The Galaxy by any stretch as the map that Obi-Wan looks at in the Jedi Library for Kamino's location zooms into an area between the edge of the galaxy and the core, and that was defined as being in the Outer Rim. Curiously this is backed up later when Tatooine and Geonosis' locations are defined as between well away from the actual galactic rim. So even in the GE era, the Outer Rim and the Empre's territory is no where near galaxy spanning. While the Empire claimed Tatooine, they had no ships or space stations located there (as per the ANH novelization) until the Death Star plans where stolen, and a number of star destroyers and troops where suddenly sent out there to blockade the system.

How big is the SW Galaxy? We have no way of confirming the 120 thousand light year diameter number in the higher canon. If we were to take the map seen in Amidala's yacht literally, The Galaxy cannot be more than a few thousand light years in width as the map does not zoom in signficantly the way it does for the earlier Jedi Library map. As others have pointed out the "small portion of a modest sized galaxy" quote, it is redundant to bring it up again, except to say that it can be used to argue for The Galaxy being less than 100,000 light years wide based on current modern understanding of the size of spiral galaxies.



In summary:

* The loss of 10,00 systems was eough to split the Republic "In two". Indicating 20 or so thousand worlds in the Clone Wars era, and probably about the same for the early Galactic Empire.


* Tarkin's "million worlds" statement from the ANH novelization in the best case scenario constrains the number of member worlds in the Empire, and in the worst case, to a million total worlds, members, colonies, uninhabited worlds, claimed, but not enforced worlds, and so on.

* The territory the the GR controlled was nowhere near galaxy-spanning as seen in the two highest canon maps, and the "small portion" statement from the ANH novelizaiton constrains the GE in it's territorial holdings to considerably less than EU size holdings.

Can you reconcile any of this highest canon material with the obvious EU material that you presented?
-Mike

[Youngla0450]

I am a new user here, but yet I am fully interested in these debates. As such I am posting here.

I will say this, though it may seem a bit rude, that I am suspicious of your motives as your first postings here seem designed to be shiny troll bait.

*The Galactic Empire consists of some twelve million member and conquered worlds, as well fifty million colonies, governorships, protectorates, and puppet states, spread some 110,000 light years (in effect..a entire galaxy) while:

Is that a statement of fact on your part? Where are your resouces to back this up? How does this 12 million member number jive with the higher canon "million star systems" of the ANH novelization? Or how does it also jive with the 10,000 systems defecting to the Seperatists in AoTC (stated in both the movie and novelization), which constituted a splitting of the Republic in half as per Papatine's own statements, which were not in any way disputed by anyone. Thus we may conclude that the GR was not more than 20-30 thousand members prior to the Clone Wars.

The highest Galactic Republic membership statement in the G-level canon places membership at no more than 100,000 star systems. If the GE, the inheritor of the GR, somehow gained dominion over 1 million worlds, they cannot necessarily be populated or well-populated worlds (think Hoth, Tatooine or Dagobah). So where does that leave us? No more than 100,000 worlds, with no more than 900,000 or so colonies, protectorates and so on scattered across... where? The movie-canon maps as seen in AoTC indicate that the GR did not occupy the whole of The Galaxy by any stretch as the map that Obi-Wan looks at in the Jedi Library for Kamino's location zooms into an area between the edge of the galaxy and the core, and that was defined as being in the Outer Rim. Curiously this is backed up later when Tatooine and Geonosis' locations are defined as between well away from the actual galactic rim. So even in the GE era, the Outer Rim and the Empre's territory is no where near galaxy spanning. While the Empire claimed Tatooine, they had no ships or space stations located there (as per the ANH novelization) until the Death Star plans where stolen, and a number of star destroyers and troops where suddenly sent out there to blockade the system.

How big is the SW Galaxy? We have no way of confirming the 120 thousand light year diameter number in the higher canon. If we were to take the map seen in Amidala's yacht literally, The Galaxy cannot be more than a few thousand light years in width as the map does not zoom in signficantly the way it does for the earlier Jedi Library map. As others have pointed out the "small portion of a modest sized galaxy" quote, it is redundant to bring it up again, except to say that it can be used to argue for The Galaxy being less than 100,000 light years wide based on current modern understanding of the size of spiral galaxies.



In summary:

* The loss of 10,00 systems was eough to split the Republic "In two". Indicating 20 or so thousand worlds in the Clone Wars era, and probably about the same for the early Galactic Empire.


* Tarkin's "million worlds" statement from the ANH novelization in the best case scenario constrains the number of member worlds in the Empire, and in the worst case, to a million total worlds, members, colonies, uninhabited worlds, claimed, but not enforced worlds, and so on.

* The territory the the GR controlled was nowhere near galaxy-spanning as seen in the two highest canon maps, and the "small portion" statement from the ANH novelizaiton constrains the GE in it's territorial holdings to considerably less than EU size holdings.

Can you reconcile any of this highest canon material with the obvious EU material that you presented?
-Mike

The sources for the Galactic Empire's size is at http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Galactic ... strography.

[Mike DiCenso]

So your sources are a bunch of C-level and lower canon EU material versus movie and novelization G-canon?
-Mike