United Federation of Planets vs Galacitic Empire

[Picard]

Exactly what it says in title. Who wins an all-out war? How their militaries compare? (And yes, Starfleet IS Federation military).

[Praeothmin]

It really depends on what kind of battle.

If you mean a border skirmish, where both only commit a small force, then I'd say, for an equal number of ships (barring super ships like the SSD), the Feds win, but in an all-out, war to the finish?
The Empire wins it...

[Picard]

Federation ships have vastly superior tactical systems which gives them advantage in combat, but Empire has equally superior FTL drive. That means that Federation will be forced to constantly hold small fleets of starships over each planet to thwart Imperial attacks.

Bibliography:
http://st-v-sw.net/STSWhi2.html
http://www.ditl.org/
http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Misc/SiteIndex.html -NOT recommended. Totally biased.

But I was talking about complete analysis of war, which means on both tactical and strategical level plus technology comparation.

[Picard]

Comparation of ISD and Galaxy class (I made that using Darkstar's site)

Maximum effective weapons range against capital ships:
ISD: 5 000 km
Galaxy: 300 000 km (torpedoes; based on weapons range of USS Phoenix, which is Nebula-class vessel and Nebula class uses technology developed for Galaxy class)

Maximum energy weapons power:
ISD: 400 kt - 1.5 Mt per shot
Gx: 4.2 Gt per second

Maximum torpedo yield:
ISD: -does not use torpedoes- (those carried by TIE bombers might have yield of 1 kt)
Gx: 100 Mt (seen on several occasions) to 1 Gt

Maximum sublight speed: 0.25 c for both (with Galaxy class having at least 10 times better acceleration capabilities)

Maximum shield strength:
ISD: 100 megatons
Gx: from 1 to 10 Gt

Energy production (probably during normal ops, e.g. not in combat and not using FTL drive):
ISD: 500 TJ/s
Gx: 5000 TJ/s

I calculated maximum theoretical photon torpedo yield at 300 Gt (that would give Galaxy class 3000 Gt shields)

[Praeothmin]

It's been discussed many times here.
I suggest you use the search function to find the rlated threads and posts.
You will find that both sides of the fence have been represented.

[Mike DiCenso]

The problem here for both sides is a matter of logistics. Given how these things usuall work out for allowing the ST and SW universes to even be able to meet one another it involves some kind of wormhole or other similar anomally, so both sides are restricted in what they can send through, and neither do each side have knowledge of each other's respective galaxies.

What does this mean? It means that first and foremost any incursion made from either side will involve slowly picking their way through the other's territory (think ST:Voyager). Even the much vaunted SW hyperdrive is limited in use by navigational concerns where the hyperspace lanes must be constantly kept clear and regularly updated for use to allow fast travel. As per several Voyager episodes, any Federation or other ST ship will have to slowly move through the SW galaxy, taking months or years to get anywhere because they will lack the navigational data that lets them move forward faster.

Either side must by force or trade obtain starcharts that will speed up their travel in their respective opponent's space. So this won't be the lopsided cakewalk that fanfic stories like "Portal" or "Conquest" make it out to be for either side.

The Empire will certainly have more ships, but the Federation seems to generally have the higher quality. The exact disparity between both sides industrial capacities is still a huge matter of debate here. Many of the issues are gone over here in this thread. However it should be noted that that particular thread, which took place in early 2008, did not account for the revelations of Star Trek 2009, which clearly shows the Romulans by at least the 2380's had the ablity to construct the 8-10 km Narada, and that the Federation, when provoked into doing so, could routinely build nearly kilometer long starshps in the 23rd century.

My estimation is that a draw is likely to come out of all this, with the Federation seeking the closure of the spatial anomaly once they discover that it is temporal not merely spatial since they would not want to violate the development of the SW galaxy so far in the past.
-Mike

[Mike DiCenso]

I calculated maximum theoretical photon torpedo yield at 300 Gt (that would give Galaxy class 3000 Gt shields)

How did you calculate this? This is way, way above any photon torpedo yield that has ever been calculated to my knowledge.
-Mike

[Picard]

U used equation E=mc^2, assuming nearly all volume of torpedo is taken up by reactants and estimated size of torpedo from these two screenshots. However, that is absolute maximum, and more reasonable estimate would be around 100 gigatons with same material density (I used uranium for density estimate, since I was going for high-end estimate). With lower material density I think it could easily drop to below 25 gigatons. (Highest yield seen on-screen is around 1 gigaton, if we don't count "Die is Cast" - DITL estimates absolute low-end yield for these torpedoes at slightly above 24 thousand megatons. Absolute maximum yield estimated is around 20 billion megatons, so 25-100 gigaton torpedoes seem OK.).

[Khas]

How did you calculate this? This is way, way above any photon torpedo yield that has ever been calculated to my knowledge.
-Mike

I remember reading on Memory Alpha that according to the ST: TNG Technical Manual, some torpedoes had a yield of 690 gigatons.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_tor ... al_Manuals

[Mike DiCenso]

That's an interesting reference there, Khas. But alas, it is from a non-canon source. It is also inconsistant with the TNG TM itself where a single torpedo of that yield would more than be enough to destroy a Galaxy class starship many times over given the 400 gigawatt shield rating (also in the TNG TM), and makes phasers completely pathetic in ship-to-ship combat, if they have such torpedes ment to be used in that way, and starships have shields that can withstand even an indirect hit.
-Mike

[Airlocke_Jedi_Knight]

How did you calculate this? This is way, way above any photon torpedo yield that has ever been calculated to my knowledge.
-Mike

I remember reading on Memory Alpha that according to the ST: TNG Technical Manual, some torpedoes had a yield of 690 gigatons.

http://memory-alpha.org/wiki/Photon_tor ... al_Manuals

Wow, that is just as ludicrous as the 800 gigaton medium turbolaser number.

[Mike DiCenso]

In theory it is possible in real life to have ultra-compressed deuterium and anti-deuterium as per this article here. So I suppose it is possible for the torpedo to be cramed with the stuff, though I don't like the idea of a compartively small torpedo having as much or more antimatter than a standard storage pod for the ship's engines.
-Mike

[Picard]

I tried to calculate yield of photon torpedoes using neutronium/antineutronium (silly, I know, but not illogical, especially when you remember that EU claims neutronium hull for Acclamator class troop transport or that Acclamator class can fire 200 gigaton shots). It came out as 21 480 760.038241 gigatons (litle less than 21 500 teratons).

[Jedi Master Spock]

The problem here for both sides is a matter of logistics. Given how these things usuall work out for allowing the ST and SW universes to even be able to meet one another it involves some kind of wormhole or other similar anomally, so both sides are restricted in what they can send through, and neither do each side have knowledge of each other's respective galaxies.

I agree that it's a logistical problem - but it's also a political problem.

What does this mean? It means that first and foremost any incursion made from either side will involve slowly picking their way through the other's territory (think ST:Voyager). Even the much vaunted SW hyperdrive is limited in use by navigational concerns where the hyperspace lanes must be constantly kept clear and regularly updated for use to allow fast travel. As per several Voyager episodes, any Federation or other ST ship will have to slowly move through the SW galaxy, taking months or years to get anywhere because they will lack the navigational data that lets them move forward faster.

And what this means is that navigation into the others' territory will be initially difficult.

However, while hyperspace lanes in the ST galaxy may not even be mapped by the UFP (they may not know what to look for), and fast warp drives don't seem to be commonly available to civilians (freighters travel slowly - see DS9), the ability to travel within Imperial territory quickly is something that the Federation can acquire simply by capturing - or purchasing - several bulk freighters.

Not even from Imperial loyalists, and there are a number of disloyal planets that would love to aid a foreign power in knocking over the Emperor, especially the Federation really doesn't have the manpower to engage in conquest.

The fact that the Federation has tactical superiority would make it easy enough; the Rebels' existence makes it expected. The narrowness of hyperlanes allows the Empire to defend itself by blocking them, but that's an extreme step.

The Empire's tactical inferiority leaves purchase the primary means by which the Empire can be expected to get good starcharts, and the data they can purchase may not give them all the needed information to find good hyperlanes(if any even exist within Federation space; if you look at the Atlas map, we can see that areas purportedly 8,000 or so light years across may not be particularly accessible with hyperdrives).

My estimation is that a draw is likely to come out of all this, with the Federation seeking the closure of the spatial anomaly once they discover that it is temporal not merely spatial since they would not want to violate the development of the SW galaxy so far in the past.
-Mike

My evaluation is this: Assuming a wormhole that lands within Imperial territory proper (i.e., near a major hyperlane), it is quite within the ability of Commander Sisko with the USS Defiant and a crew to locate a nearby poorly-regulated system, insert personnel into that system to collect the necessary intelligence about the nature and structure of the Empire, obtain readily commercially available intelligence on the location of Coruscant and the political structure of the Empire, commandeer or subvert a bulk freighter capable of transporting the entire Defiant, and then deal a sharp death-blow to the Empire, which at no point was more than a few well-placed proton torpedoes away from disintegrating under its own weight.

It is, in other words, not that hard to effectively destroy the Empire as a political entity. Conquering the Empire, however, is not IMO within the Federation's capabilities, and the UFP is not politically inclined to meddle with the internal affairs of other sovereign nations ordinarily.

[Mr. Oragahn]

The problem here for both sides is a matter of logistics. Given how these things usuall work out for allowing the ST and SW universes to even be able to meet one another it involves some kind of wormhole or other similar anomally, so both sides are restricted in what they can send through, and neither do each side have knowledge of each other's respective galaxies.

What does this mean? It means that first and foremost any incursion made from either side will involve slowly picking their way through the other's territory (think ST:Voyager). Even the much vaunted SW hyperdrive is limited in use by navigational concerns where the hyperspace lanes must be constantly kept clear and regularly updated for use to allow fast travel. As per several Voyager episodes, any Federation or other ST ship will have to slowly move through the SW galaxy, taking months or years to get anywhere because they will lack the navigational data that lets them move forward faster.

Either side must by force or trade obtain starcharts that will speed up their travel in their respective opponent's space. So this won't be the lopsided cakewalk that fanfic stories like "Portal" or "Conquest" make it out to be for either side.

The Empire will certainly have more ships, but the Federation seems to generally have the higher quality. The exact disparity between both sides industrial capacities is still a huge matter of debate here. Many of the issues are gone over here in this thread. However it should be noted that that particular thread, which took place in early 2008, did not account for the revelations of Star Trek 2009, which clearly shows the Romulans by at least the 2380's had the ablity to construct the 8-10 km Narada, and that the Federation, when provoked into doing so, could routinely build nearly kilometer long starshps in the 23rd century.

My estimation is that a draw is likely to come out of all this, with the Federation seeking the closure of the spatial anomaly once they discover that it is temporal not merely spatial since they would not want to violate the development of the SW galaxy so far in the past.
-Mike

I remember the SBC thread in 2009 wherein Vespa said the Empire can still brute force hyperlanes if it wants to, but this kind of information conflicted with facts such as the real expansion of the Empire in the EU, and the TCWS which show that brute forcing a route would be no problem even with mines, yet it's not done.