Starfleet Jedi

This thread

Made me laugh, for the sheer absurdity of the people arguing for the Wookies without ever bringing a shred of evidence, while ignoring all of Worf's Canon feats so he can lose...

Worf, as vivftp says, lifted a fully grown 150 pound man with 1 arm fully extended in front of him, held him there 2 full seconds without any apparent exertion, and then casually threw him across a room 5-10 feet away in "Let He Who Is Without Sin..." (DS9 episode).

In TNG, he once lifted a piece of bulkhead too heavy for Riker, nearly defeated Roga Danar, the genetically enhanced super soldier who had taken apart 2 security officers and O'Brian, won the Bath'Leth tournament.

In ST:INS, he was fighting off 3 enemies at a time who clearly were stronger then humans (seeing as how Rua'Fo easily threw Admiral Dougherty around), and he was the only one who could defeat them. Each of his punches lifted his enemies off the ground.

In DS9, he fought against multiple Jem'Hadar soldiers, genetically engineered soldiers, and only after many of these fights in two days, without medical attention (Bashir could barely perform field medicine for lack of equipment).

They say Wookies are dangerous opponents, yet we saw nothing impressive of Chewbacca in the movies, and the Wookies neede the Clone Army's help to defeat the immensily incmpetent Droid army....
Chewbacca never did naything denoting great strenght in any movie, in fact he did nothing I could not do myself (and while I am above average strenght, I am not that strong), like lifting a Stormtrooper 1 foot off the ground and throwing him at another trooper 2 feet behind in TESB, or doing the same thing in RotJ in the forest when the Ewoks attack...
The only thing of notice he did was to pull the AT-ST pilot out of the cabin, but as I said, I could do that under the circumstances, and I have nowhere near super-human strength.

So, due to his Hand-to-Hand training and weapons training, due to his greater strength, Worf wins...

I would give the fight to Worf here actually by a considerable margin, his skill is so far above Chewies its almost a joke and his str is at least equal and likely greater.


Chewie is big and reasonably strong (but not overly so considering his size) but his actual skill in combat is non existant and relies purely on his size and flailing his arms around.

Worf would take him apart without much effort then skin him and use him as a rug or a new furry bed cover.

My speculation is that Worf is a decendent of one of those Klingons who were altered by the Augment virus back in the 2150's as we saw Augments toss Klingons around like ragdolls, and we know that on average an Augment human is five times stronger than a normal one. It also explains why in ST6:TUC why Col. Worf, Worf's grandfather's head ridges looked so flat. So somehow Worf's ancestors managed to retain strength and resilience when Dr. Phlox's cure was distributed, indicating that they were among the original Klingons to be infected by it and were at a later, but not fatal stage.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:My speculation is that Worf is a decendent of one of those Klingons who were altered by the Augment virus back in the 2150's as we saw Augments toss Klingons around like ragdolls, and we know that on average an Augment human is five times stronger than a normal one. It also explains why in ST6:TUC why Col. Worf, Worf's grandfather's head ridges looked so flat. So somehow Worf's ancestors managed to retain strength and resilience when Dr. Phlox's cure was distributed, indicating that they were among the original Klingons to be infected by it and were at a later, but not fatal stage.
-Mike

In the DS9 episode "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" it is mentioned that Vulcans naturally have 3 times the strength of a normal human and Sisko points out that Worf is at least equal too or maybe even stronger and faster than Vulcans.

However we do see worf in physical combat with other Klingons over the years and he is not what i would consider to be significantly stronger than they are so id say it is natural.

Who cares, they're both fairly useless. Worf gets his butt handed to him so often that he has a trope named after him for it, while Chewbacca just served as the obligatory animal side-kick who kept getting them into trouble like the resident alien-version of Scooby-doo; even Darth Vader had to save Chewbacca's life in Episode V!

Kor_Dahar_Master wrote:

Mike DiCenso wrote:My speculation is that Worf is a decendent of one of those Klingons who were altered by the Augment virus back in the 2150's as we saw Augments toss Klingons around like ragdolls, and we know that on average an Augment human is five times stronger than a normal one. It also explains why in ST6:TUC why Col. Worf, Worf's grandfather's head ridges looked so flat. So somehow Worf's ancestors managed to retain strength and resilience when Dr. Phlox's cure was distributed, indicating that they were among the original Klingons to be infected by it and were at a later, but not fatal stage.
-Mike

In the DS9 episode "Take Me Out to the Holosuite" it is mentioned that Vulcans naturally have 3 times the strength of a normal human and Sisko points out that Worf is at least equal too or maybe even stronger and faster than Vulcans.

He said the same about Bashir, who never appeared that strong; however he did have superhuman accuracy, so perhaps Sisko was talking about darts?
The canonicity of that episode is disputed, however-- at least I hope to God so. (Just like Bashir's genetic enhancements were clearly a retcon-- unless we're to believe that competitive athletes in the 24th century are never screened for such, which would be like letting Ben Johnson running the 100-meter dash without a steroid-test).
Same with his letting O'brien supposedly win all those darts-games, but still beating him in springball to the point where he and O'brien had a big showdown over it? Sorry, no sale.
Same with the canonicity of Enterprise; it's hard to believe that no one would ever see a picture of a Klingon without an armadillo-head, when the Federation was at war with them just a few years earlier!

KirkSkywalker wrote:Same with the canonicity of Enterprise; it's hard to believe that no one would ever see a picture of a Klingon without an armadillo-head, when the Federation was at war with them just a few years earlier!

You can't pin the blame on ST:ENT for that one. You have go have a long talk with the ST:TMP production crew and Gene Roddenberry that chose to go with the ridged Klingon forheads in the first place, and next you have to go get into a fight with the DS9 writers and production crew over showing Worf alongside TOS Klingons in "Trials and Tribble-ations" and that whole They are Klingons, and it is a long story." bit and Bashir and O'Brien ponder possible causes: genetic engineering and mutated virus, which was answered in "Affliction" and "Divergence".
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

KirkSkywalker wrote:Same with the canonicity of Enterprise; it's hard to believe that no one would ever see a picture of a Klingon without an armadillo-head, when the Federation was at war with them just a few years earlier!

You can't pin the blame on ST:ENT for that one. You have go have a long talk with the ST:TMP production crew and Gene Roddenberry that chose to go with the ridged Klingon forheads in the first place, and next you have to go get into a fight with the DS9 writers and production crew over showing Worf alongside TOS Klingons in "Trials and Tribble-ations" and that whole They are Klingons, and it is a long story." bit and Bashir and O'Brien ponder possible causes: genetic engineering and mutated virus, which was answered in "Affliction" and "Divergence".
-Mike

NOPE. Kang, Kor and Koloth all appeared in DS9 in their old age with armadillo-heads; so if it was caused by some virus then they sure got cured awful conveniently.

If there was any virus, it would have taken place BECAUSE of the Tribbles, since it clearly affected their homeworld and almost wiped out the Klingons-- ala rabbits in Australia. In an interview, James Doohan gave inside information which concurred with this.

However this wouln't give the Killer B's a chance to revise history and steal credit, so obviously they had a different story-- as does every glory-thief in history.

KirkSkywalker wrote:NOPE. Kang, Kor and Koloth all appeared in DS9 in their old age with armadillo-heads; so if it was caused by some virus then they sure got cured awful conveniently.

The episode "Divergence" made it clear that generations of Klingons would have the Augment virus changes and it would be some time before the disfigurements would be overcome in them. And do recall that Kang, Kor, and Koloth all appeared in TOS without any ridges. There has to be an explanation for that, and the ST:ENT two-parter neatly explains it.

KirkSkywalker wrote:If there was any virus, it would have taken place BECAUSE of the Tribbles, since it clearly affected their homeworld and almost wiped out the Klingons-- ala rabbits in Australia. In an interview, James Doohan gave inside information which concurred with this.

None of which is in evidence anywhere in the canon, and does not make sense given what we see in all the series.

KirkSkywalker wrote:However this wouln't give the Killer B's a chance to revise history and steal credit, so obviously they had a different story-- as does every glory-thief in history.

Here you are being irrational. Neither Berman, nor Braga had anything to do with that. It was Manny Coto along with Mike Sussman and the Reeves-Stevens who were primarily responsible for ST:ENT's season 4.

Also none of this is neither here nor there as the point is that Worf is canonically seen as far stronger than a regular human (actually shown lifting people off the ground or moving very heavy objects). When Worf gets his ass handed to him, it's because what he's going up against usually is pretty badass, like Data's brother Lore.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:

KirkSkywalker wrote:NOPE. Kang, Kor and Koloth all appeared in DS9 in their old age with armadillo-heads; so if it was caused by some virus then they sure got cured awful conveniently.

The episode "Divergence" made it clear that generations of Klingons would have the Augment virus changes and it would be some time before the disfigurements would be overcome in them. And do recall that Kang, Kor, and Koloth all appeared in TOS without any ridges. There has to be an explanation for that, and the ST:ENT two-parter neatly explains it.

"Deliverance" is more like it, since it's completely f'ed in the A.
It doesn't explain why it would revert perfectly in members who had been affected their whole lives-- nor why there wasn't a word about it in ST records; and if it does, then it's WAY too conveniently.
It's just more Deus Ex Machina leeching.

KirkSkywalker wrote:If there was any virus, it would have taken place BECAUSE of the Tribbles, since it clearly affected their homeworld and almost wiped out the Klingons-- ala rabbits in Australia. In an interview, James Doohan gave inside information which concurred with this.

None of which is in evidence anywhere in the canon, and does not make sense given what we see in all the series.

Except what Worf said in TaT.

KirkSkywalker wrote:However this wouln't give the Killer B's a chance to revise history and steal credit, so obviously they had a different story-- as does every glory-thief in history.

Here you are being irrational. Neither Berman, nor Braga had anything to do with that. It was Manny Coto along with Mike Sussman and the Reeves-Stevens who were primarily responsible for ST:ENT's season 4.

No, I'm being observant These others didn't have creative control, and weren't any better; such revisionist leeching was the entire series's raison d'etra and modus operandi from day 1 until their fan died. The only thing "irrational" is to deny it.

Also none of this is neither here nor there as the point is that Worf is canonically seen as far stronger than a regular human (actually shown lifting people off the ground or moving very heavy objects). When Worf gets his ass handed to him, it's because what he's going up against usually is pretty badass, like Data's brother Lore.
-Mike

So they reverted back to big dumb apes? Lame

KirkSkywalker wrote: "Deliverance" is more like it, since it's completely f'ed in the A.
It doesn't explain why it would revert perfectly in members who had been affected their whole lives-- nor why there wasn't a word about it in ST records; and if it does, then it's WAY too conveniently.

It's just more Deus Ex Machina leeching.

Most of what you are saying doesn't make sense, it's just a jumbled rant. No one in "Trials and Tribble-ations", except Worf knew what was going on, or even knew that Klingons were ridge-less back in the 2260's. So that's were that started, not with ST:ENT, which was trying to find a way to bridge the problem TaT and ST:TMP created. Also look at Kang, Kor, and Koloth's ridges in VOY and DS9, they are much less pronounced than most others, like Worf, Gowron, Kruge, or Duras, indicating that something is different.

KirkSkywalker wrote:Except what Worf said in TaT.

Worf only says this:

WORF: They were an ecological menace, a plague to be wiped out.

ODO: Wiped out? What are you saying?

WORF: Hundreds of warriors were sent to track them down throughout the galaxy. An armada obliterated the Tribbles' homeworld. By the end of the twenty third century they had been eradicated.

So nothing here about tribbles spreading any virus or having anything to do with the head ridges. Much later when Odo, Bashir, and O'Brien express suprise at the ridgeless TOS-era Klingons:

WORF: They are Klingons, and it is a long story.

O'BRIEN: What happened? Some kind genetic engineering?

BASHIR: A viral mutation?
(A line that was used eventually to create an entire episode of Enterprise.)

WORF: We do not discuss it with outsiders.

All of which fits with what is shown in ST:ENT. So how does it support what you are saying... in fact, what is it that you are trying to say?

KirkSkywalker wrote:So they reverted back to big dumb apes? Lame

Huh? That kind of came out of left field. How does that having anything to do with the fact that Worf has demonstrated super-human strength?
-Mike

I was quite recently talking about Wookiees' strength here.

Basically, the sum total of the argument in favor of the Wookiee is the single line in ANH about Wookiees being able to tear arms out of sockets. What kind of arms is not specified, of course. Droid arms - such as C3P0's - are not necessarily so firmly attached as humans.

With chimpanzee-like muscle tissue, Chewbacca would have little more strength than a chimpanzee. He may be much taller and heavier, but his arms are actually not exceptionally thick (ironically, no thicker than that of a chimpanzee half his height and a third of his apparent weight).

Interestingly, chimpanzees are known to tear off arms, at least those of children; what this basically means is that taking Han's comment as literal and accurate, we have Wookiees with about the same raw upper body strength as chimpanzees - better reach, perhaps, and maybe a some more effective total strength in their whole body, but that's about all we have any evidence for.

If we take Han's comment as hyperbole - as would be normal for a "documentarian" approach, hypothetically, if we're to be consistent - then there's no evidence for proportionately exceptional strength for Wookiees.

Chewie's stormtrooper-shoving can be seen here (0:40-0:50). Worf's pitch can be seen 6:15-6:30. It's actually more impressive than how Chewie pushes around stormtroopers; Worf throws the man further, and after holding him up for several seconds with one arm.

It is also in "He Who is Without Sin" that Worf's story about accidentally breaking a human's neck at the age of 13 comes out. For what it's worth, Worf is actually not a typical Klingon. The typical Klingon is smaller and shorter than Worf, and doesn't stand much of a chance against him in close combat... no more than a typical 1.7m 75 kg couch potato would be able to push around a 1.9m 100 kg competitive martial artist.

Chewie might have an advantage in strength - but while Chewie might be able to tear off the arms of someone like Senator Palpatine, it is highly unlikely he would be able to tear off Worf's arms, and his advantage in strength would be comparatively small. Worf being about six inches taller than a typical Stormtrooper, Chewie certainly has an advantage in reach and possibly has an advantage in strength; Worf probably has the advantage of skill.

KirkSkywalker wrote:
He said the same about Bashir, who never appeared that strong; however he did have superhuman accuracy, so perhaps Sisko was talking about darts?
The canonicity of that episode is disputed, however-- at least I hope to God so. (Just like Bashir's genetic enhancements were clearly a retcon-- unless we're to believe that competitive athletes in the 24th century are never screened for such, which would be like letting Ben Johnson running the 100-meter dash without a steroid-test).
Same with his letting O'brien supposedly win all those darts-games, but still beating him in springball to the point where he and O'brien had a big showdown over it? Sorry, no sale.
Same with the canonicity of Enterprise; it's hard to believe that no one would ever see a picture of a Klingon without an armadillo-head, when the Federation was at war with them just a few years earlier!

You cannot deny the canoninity of episodes or material just because it suites you.

Bashir gave up tennis likely due to the fact he would be tested althoufgh he made up other excuses.

JMS wrote:Worf being about six inches taller than a typical Stormtrooper, Chewie certainly has an advantage in reach and possibly has an advantage in strength; Worf probably has the advantage of skill.

While Chewy does have a definite advantage in reach, he clearly does not have one in strength.
If Worf wished it so, with the strength he exerted, he could also pull out a grown man's arm...
Let me give you an example:
I said I had slightly higher than average strength.
I can bench 180 to 200 pounds at least once or twice, which is about 1 1/2 times what the average male can do.
The most weight I've ever lifted as Worf lifted the human is 50 to 60 pounds, or about 3 times less.
I can lift this weight at shoulder height, max, and for 1 second, max, and that takes eveything I have to do so.
I can definitely not throw that weight 10 feet away from me one handed.

Worf lifted 3 times the weight I can lift above shoulder height, or about 5 times what an average man can do, with no apparent efforts, and held it many seconds there, then, with no apparent motion or "arm-cocking", threw that weight at 6 to 10 feet away...

My brother in law weights about 180 pounds, and just for fun, last summer, his best friend and I played "throw the brother in law" in the pool, that is, I picked him up, and threw him 3-5 feet away in the air, at his best friend.
While his best friend did not have my strength, he had the height advantage (I'm 5'8", he's 6'2"), so it was easier for him to lift my brother in law high enough to reach me when he threw him.
I can, and indeed did at one point, lift a 200 pound man off the ground up to shoulder height, and could throw that man on an adjacent man if I so wished.

Nothing, and I mean, nothing Chewie did in any of the movies are things I, with my slightly above average strength, cannot do.
Strenght advantage, he does not have...

As for skill, Worf has won Bath'leth championships, can fight and defeat multiple attackers at the same time, and is able to hold his own against a genetically altered super soldier capable of taking down three armed security guards in mere seconds...
Chewie can pick up Stormtroopers and push them around, and is a good shot with his Bowcaster.
Skill definitely in Worf's corner...