Starfleet Jedi

Star Wars nav-computer cannot contain the locations of planets and star-systems, since then there would be no way to erase Kamino from all of them.
Therefore, they must download coordinates from a central computer before jumping, and it gives the computer the basic data.

Meanwhile, Fedration ships each have stellar cartogaphy sections. It's like Googlmaps vs. a GPS.

Likewise, this indicates that Starfleet science officers and engineers should be able to hack into the Imperial database and download their information, as well as put in computer-viruses and take over the entire network.

Your assuming that Kamino was ever in them aside from the Jedi's archives in the first place. Ben's buddy who runs the diner indicates that their quite reclusive and the galaxy is a big place, plenty of room for info to get lost.

As for the nav computers, I just figured that the owners bought charts.

The Dude wrote:Your assuming that Kamino was ever in them aside from the Jedi's archives in the first place. Ben's buddy who runs the diner indicates that their quite reclusive and the galaxy is a big place, plenty of room for info to get lost.

As for the nav computers, I just figured that the owners bought charts.

But this seems to contradict it. Why would it be in the Jedi archives, but not in nav computers? Dex knew Kamino from prosepecting in the Outer Rim, but if it was in the archives before then someone else would have had to know about it.

It looks like the Coruscant database would be the central point of downloading nav-information, while the Jedi would simply have access to it.

Perhaps it was protected information. Or the Jedi did surveys for the Republic.

We simply don't know.

Edit: Was Kamino part of the Republic? If not then I don't see any reason why the location would be widely available.

The Dude wrote:Perhaps it was protected information. Or the Jedi did surveys for the Republic.

We simply don't know.

You're assuming that that it wasn't available.

Edit: Was Kamino part of the Republic? If not then I don't see any reason why the location would be widely available.

Because it's there?
What's your reason that it wouldn't[i/] be? You already said you don't know. If Dooku erased it in the last 20 years, then it would have to be in some record other than Dex's memory, unless Coruscant served as the central databank.
This would also make sense if space-lanes were narrow, in order to prevent collisions between ships.

Disregard the previous.

Edit: It's not like its the first plot hole in SW.

No argument there, bro :D

I hate to read more into things can possibly exist (I know some fans do that-- typically asking the actors dumb questions at conventions), but I think this is a valid point: there has to be some continuity as to how one person can erase a planet from the archive database, and it would cease to exist from all ships' nav-computers.
Remember, Yoda didn't know why the planet was missing from the Jedi archives, and he would know if it had ever been classified, being head of the Council.

The only answer I can think of, is that it never existed on ship's nav-puters in the first place, since Coruscant was a central database.

Actually, how do we know that Kamino wasn't in any other Nav-Computer?
Afaik, Obi-Wan did not check the Nav-Computer of every ship on Coruscant, and definitely not every ship in the SW Galaxy.

As Dude said, the Kaminoens were very secretive, so their location may not have been known by all, only a select few, including the Jedi Council.

And I like the GPS-like nature of the Nav-Computers, as Dude mentioned.
We know that Nav-Computers need updated star charts to work well, else you go through a planet or something.
So then I would venture all the Jedi Nav-Computers periodically get their updates from the Jedi Council.
Now, imagine someone erases a planet from these charts, a planet no one goes to because it is out of the way of the main Hyperlanes on a secondary one), and no one really needs what they sell.
After a year, when all the Nav-Computers have updated their charts, the planet no longer exists on Jedi originated charts.
Now, imagine, in their benevolence, the Jedi share these charts with anyone who needs it?
Before long, the nice, little planet of Kamino has disappeared from most charts in the Galaxy.
Only those who do not directly deal with the Jedi (like spacers, smugglers, etc...) still have Kamino on their old datacharts...

Remember, Yoda didn't know why the planet was missing from the Jedi archives, and he would know if it had ever been classified, being head of the Council.

Why would he?
If the planet is remote, unimportant, there's no reason Yoda should know about it.
In fact, the planet has been erased from the Database, and Yoda did not know it existed in the first place...

I think SOMEONE would notice if a planet got erased from every nav-computer.
If you want to compare it to a GPS, then more like the nav-computer only carries the data it needs, and so it could download the latest info immediately. Carrying the orbits and position of every planet in the GD galaxy is pretty exessive, especially for the archaic computers in SW.

Han also said "we might bounce too close to a supernova--" which is something that lasts a very short time, and so periodic updates wouldn't be good enough; rather, it would need to download the data immediately.

Remember, Yoda didn't know why the planet was missing from the Jedi archives, and he would know if it had ever been classified, being head of the Council.

Why would he?
If the planet is remote, unimportant, there's no reason Yoda should know about it.
In fact, the planet has been erased from the Database, and Yoda did not know it existed in the first place...

We're talking about if the planet had been classified before Dooku erased it, remember? If it was classified, then obviously it wouldn't be unimportant. Derrrrr.

UniveralNetguru wrote:I think SOMEONE would notice if a planet got erased from every nav-computer.

Yeah, sure, like anyone notices when a back alley street in the Bronx changes names because of a new urban plan...

Really?
Are you really going to argue that someone, in the hundreds of thousands of systems (movie canon, PT) under the old Republic, the hundreds of millions of stars in the SW Galaxy, will notice if 1 unknown planet sudenly no longer appears in the nav-charts?
Wow!

Carrying the orbits and position of every planet in the GD galaxy is pretty exessive, especially for the archaic computers in SW.

"I am C3P-o, human Cyborg relations. I am fluent in over 6 million forms of communication"...
Yeah, very primitive...

Han also said "we might bounce too close to a supernova--" which is something that lasts a very short time, and so periodic updates wouldn't be good enough; rather, it would need to download the data immediately.

"If we didn't have the right calculations, we'd fly right into a star, or bounce too close to a supernova, and that would end your trip real quick, now wouldn't it kid?"

An example to show how important the calculations are...
And while a Supernova isn't a long-term affair, it doesn't happen overnight either, so star charts that happen the mention a Star about to go kablooy real soon doesn't need to be updated very often...

We're talking about if the planet had been classified before Dooku erased it, remember? If it was classified, then obviously it wouldn't be unimportant. Derrrrr.

Yes, like evey damn city and towns in the USA are currently on maps, electronic or otherwise.
Do you think Obama knows everyone of them?
Do you?
No, that's why you use a map or a GPS to go in remote places that you know nothing about, to find a remote town no one's ever heard about, except perhaps truckers that actually passed it by on their runs... Deeerrrr...

Praeothmin wrote:"I am C3P-o, human Cyborg relations. I am fluent in over 6 million forms of communication"...
Yeah, very primitive...

Neither is it impressive as we do not really know, what he means.

What forms of communication do you know?

I know that there is verbal and nonverbal communication, whereas nonverbal communication is usually understood as the process of communication through sending and receiving wordless messages e.g. through gestures and touch (Haptic communication), by body language or posture, by facial expression and eye contact. Nonverbal communication can be communicated through object communication such as clothing, hairstyles or even architecture, symbols and infographics. Speech contains nonverbal elements known as paralanguage, including voice quality, emotion and speaking style, as well as prosodic features such as rhythm, intonation and stress. Dance is also regarded as a nonverbal communication. Likewise, written texts have nonverbal elements such as handwriting style, spatial arrangement of words, or the use of emoticons. Animals and plants are even able to olfactory communication.

Obviously many of these forms of communication are beyond what C3PO is able to do.

Or does he mean that he merely knows 6 million languages?

And does he really know them or is he able to analyse and translate them on the fly as the Universal translator is doing it?

How many languages - even languages that are unknown - can the Universal translator translate that way?

And notice the difference in size. Every Starfleet personnel has its own universal translator while in star Wars, a human sized droid is necessary (although it may be that a human shaped droid is necessary for protocolic duties too - e.g. serving).

WILGA wrote:Neither is it impressive as we do not really know, what he means.

What?
6 million forms of communication is not impressive?
Wow, you must speak at least a bazillion language if you find 6 million forms of communications unimpressive...

And what does he mean?
He means he knows over 6 million ways of communicating, and since, as you so nicely pointed out, he's obviously not very good at physical communication, it must all be verbal or computer languages, but no matter what it is, it is self-explanatory: 6 million different ways to communicate...

WILGA wrote:And notice the difference in size. Every Starfleet personnel has its own universal translator while in star Wars, a human sized droid is necessary (although it may be that a human shaped droid is necessary for protocolic duties too - e.g. serving).

"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra"...
Federation UT are not perfect either...

Are Federation computer more advanced than SW?
I believe so...
Is it like comparing a Commodore 64 like today's laptop?
Heck no, it's a lot more like comparing a 3 year old MAC with today's latest Laptop...

And their computers aren't impressive?
You guys have orgasms about the Feds holo-docs accidentally becoming sentient (while invading most of Voyager's RAM to do so), while SW's droids will most definitely become sentient if they don't have routine memory swipes...
Plus, we are talking about droids able to pilot, not just activate weapons or such, but truly and completely pilot ships.
What has the federation got that can do better?

Praeothmin wrote:

UniveralNetguru wrote:I think SOMEONE would notice if a planet got erased from every nav-computer.

Yeah, sure, like anyone notices when a back alley street in the Bronx changes names because of a new urban plan...

Really?
Are you really going to argue that someone, in the hundreds of thousands of systems (movie canon, PT) under the old Republic, the hundreds of millions of stars in the SW Galaxy, will notice if 1 unknown planet sudenly no longer appears in the nav-charts?
Wow!

You're going to argue that NO ONE would notice?
And if it was on the maps, it wouldn't be "uniknown" derrrr..

Han also said "we might bounce too close to a supernova--" which is something that lasts a very short time, and so periodic updates wouldn't be good enough; rather, it would need to download the data immediately.

"If we didn't have the right calculations, we'd fly right into a star, or bounce too close to a supernova, and that would end your trip real quick, now wouldn't it kid?"

An example to show how important the calculations are...
And while a Supernova isn't a long-term affair, it doesn't happen overnight either, so star charts that happen the mention a Star about to go kablooy real soon doesn't need to be updated very often..

But they're unpredictable, so it would have to be either updated, or you'd find yourself making a lof detours like for icy-streets in July.

We're talking about if the planet had been classified before Dooku erased it, remember? If it was classified, then obviously it wouldn't be unimportant. Derrrrr.

Yes, like evey damn city and towns in the USA are currently on maps, electronic or otherwise.
Do you think Obama knows everyone of them?
Do you?
No, that's why you use a map or a GPS to go in remote places that you know nothing about, to find a remote town no one's ever heard about, except perhaps truckers that actually passed it by on their runs... Deeerrrr...

[/quote]
You're getting hysterical now, ranting and raving non-sequiturs, like warsies tend to do when put on the spot. If a city was classified as secret, you're damned right that Obama would know-- and so Star Wars, likewise. has its own top-guy with big ears who would know.
As for erasing a city, yes I'm quite sure someone would notice, if the information was public domain and stored in every computer.
More like ships simply DL'ed the info on-demand, since SW computers didn't have that kind of capacity... but you seem to have some obsession with denying that which is most likely by factors of billions.

Praeothmin wrote:

WILGA wrote:Neither is it impressive as we do not really know, what he means.

What?
6 million forms of communication is not impressive?

Not for a computer, no. Again, most of those would be machine-codes since he was for human-cyborg relations.

WILGA wrote:And notice the difference in size. Every Starfleet personnel has its own universal translator while in star Wars, a human sized droid is necessary (although it may be that a human shaped droid is necessary for protocolic duties too - e.g. serving).

"Darmok and Jalad at Tanagra"...
Federation UT are not perfect either...

They translated fine, they simply didn't capture the dialect right away.
Spock was able to communicate telepathically with Nomad and the Horta, i.e. a machine and a rock.

Are Federation computer more advanced than SW?
I believe so...
Is it like comparing a Commodore 64 like today's laptop?
Heck no, it's a lot more like comparing a 3 year old MAC with today's latest Laptop...

More like five fingers with string around one of them :D
SW computers are crap.

And their computers aren't impressive?
You guys have orgasms about the Feds holo-docs accidentally becoming sentient (while invading most of Voyager's RAM to do so), while SW's droids will most definitely become sentient if they don't have routine memory swipes...

Sure, that's why Obi-wan said "if droids could think, none of us could be here... yes, they wipe memories in order to keep the droids down! FIGHT THE POWER, DROIDS UNITE!
Puh-LEE-YUZ.

Plus, we are talking about droids able to pilot, not just activate weapons or such, but truly and completely pilot ships.

Sure, we don't have auto-pilots now, today, do we?
Or chimps able to fly into space?
Krikey!

What has the federation got that can do better?

Voyager was able to fit all of its libraries in something the size of a breadbox.
And in "Ship in a Bottle," the Enterprise crew was able to re-create the entire universe in something of equal size.
As for the Universal Translator, there's also no evidence that there's any limit to what it can translate.

know that there is verbal and nonverbal communication, whereas nonverbal communication is usually understood as the process of communication through sending and receiving wordless messages e.g. through gestures and touch (Haptic communication), by body language or posture, by facial expression and eye contact. Nonverbal communication can be communicated through object communication such as clothing, hairstyles or even architecture, symbols and infographics. Speech contains nonverbal elements known as paralanguage, including voice quality, emotion and speaking style, as well as prosodic features such as rhythm, intonation and stress. Dance is also regarded as a nonverbal communication. Likewise, written texts have nonverbal elements such as handwriting style, spatial arrangement of words, or the use of emoticons. Animals and plants are even able to olfactory communication.

But to be fair, Star Trek's "babelfish" Universal Translator wouldn't be able to translate those paralinquistic communicatons either; you'd need an ambassador who was familiar with it.

UNG/SS/KSW/PDT/WYD wrote:You're going to argue that NO ONE would notice?

Maybe the existence of the planet wasn't known by the Council per say, but only by it's databanks and a few Jedi Masters...
For ten years, no one even once asked about that planet, to the point where even the Library's keeper, the one who supposedly knows anything and everything of the Jedi Archives, had no clue of the existence of that planet.
Yoda didn't know it existed, NO ONE of importance apparently did...
That planet was so remote, only a few spacers and smugglers even knew it existed.
So yes, I will argue no one with any importance in the Jedi will even notice...

They might have noticed if the planet that disappeared was, say, Alderaan, or Coruscant, because they are, you know, kind of important to the Republic, but a secretive planet of xenophobic aliens?
Nope...

And if it was on the maps, it wouldn't be "uniknown" derrrr..

Yes, because maps in SW are most likely drawn by hand and then manually uploaded in the databanks...
Because there's no way they could have sent a deep sensor probe to chart the location, then send the information to the Jedi Archives central databanks, which would then be automatically updated by the computers, just like we can do today...

But they're unpredictable, so it would have to be either updated, or you'd find yourself making a lof detours like for icy-streets in July.

Let me try to make it simple for you:
While you will want to check the upcoming supernova frequently, you will not need to do the same for some remote planet which barely anyone had ever heard of...

You're getting hysterical now, ranting and raving non-sequiturs, like warsies tend to do when put on the spot.

Do you even know what being hysterical means?
Or a rant?
Because I made a point, which you obviously, as always, seemed to miss, which was that not all cities in the USA are known to everyone, even though they are all mapped.
Mapping a place doesn't suddenly make that place known to anyone important, it just makes it appear on a map...

If a city was classified as secret, you're damned right that Obama would know-- and so Star Wars, likewise. has its own top-guy with big ears who would know.

Exactly, if it was classified as "secret", which we have no indication of Kamino being.
It was a backwater, remote, isolated planet on the edge of the Galaxy, not a super-secret weapons research location.
Very few people knew of it, so erasing it from the archives without anyone important noticing was easy, as the movies (you know, your ultra "movies only count and not he animated movie but just the real live ones" interpretation of Canon) show us...
By the time of AotC, Obi-Wan had flown to many places, knew many of the more important planets, yet he'd never heard of Kamino.
Even the Jedi Librarian knew nothing of it, so Kamino was not important, and the fact it was on maps doesn't make it a known place...

As for erasing a city, yes I'm quite sure someone would notice, if the information was public domain and stored in every computer.

But who would notice who would want to tell the Jedi?
Obi-Wan's friend knew of the planet, but he used to be a smuggler, and didn't mention it was erased from the Star Charts, even to Obi-Wan...
Jango knew the planet, but he had his own Charts, and he sure as hell would not tell the Jedi Council...
The two Jedi Masters who comissioned the army, Syfo-Dyas and Dooku did, but they had it erased from the archives without anyone batting an eyelash.
This should clearly show you how unimportant the planet was, and it still fits with a GPS-type Nav-Computer...

Not for a computer, no. Again, most of those would be machine-codes since he was for human-cyborg relations.

It's still 6 million forms of communications...
6 million different types of codes, and symbols, and ways to convey them...

They translated fine, they simply didn't capture the dialect right away.

Context is also a form of communication, and the UT did not translate it well, at all.
And it almost cost Picard his life...
So yes, the UT is better than 3PO, but it isn't perfect, and it doesn't make 3PO unimpressive...

SW computers are crap.

Which you will now prove with some evidence, I hope.
These crap computers have to compute routes using charts, asteroid movement, planetary movements, etc, just to send one ship from one end of the Galaxy to the other, which means billions upon billions of difficult calculations in seconds...
They have to run eveything in a fully automated society, and make sure there's no mistake in any of their movements while regulating the traffic on, say, Coruscant, a planet-wide city...
I'd say they're impressive enough...

Sure, that's why Obi-wan said "if droids could think, none of us could be here

Sure, and that's why Artoo decided, by himself, to repair the shields on Amidala's ship, the hyperdrive on the MF in ANH, scanning for lifeforms on Endor, conning Luke into removing the restraining bolt on him so he could find Obi-Wan in ANH, etc...
Yeah, Obi-Wan's comment was fact, and not a prejudiced opinion on droids...

Sure, we don't have auto-pilots now, today, do we?

Do the pilotes talk to them, or do they simply switch them on or off through a switch?
Can they decide to go back, or do they even able to do aerial maneuvers if an enemy plane targetted them?
They are complex, but not as complex as R2.
Oh, and can you show me the equivalent in ST?
I don't remember a ship maneuvering by itself in any show or movie...

Voyager was able to fit all of its libraries in something the size of a breadbox.
And in "Ship in a Bottle," the Enterprise crew was able to re-create the entire universe in something of equal size.

And how physically big do you think 3PO's storage area is?
3PO is not a walking computer, he's first and foremost an Android, with servos and a power pack and circuitry to regulate how his body works.
And even in computers today, just saving information takes a lot less space then storing programs, such as communication algorythms, interpretation software, and so on.
And while the UT is nice, remember it links directly to a ship's computer through its communication system, so there's a lot of computing power there.
And in "Ship in a Bottle", they did not "recreate" the universe, they simply uploaded their library to it, something we can do today in computers of similar sizes...

Again, while I've always stated that ST computers are superior to SW, they are not so far in advance, especially when you consider how easy it is to pass ST computer security...