Starfleet Jedi

Mith got my brain going about this when he mentioned that the empire logically could pull a USSR and just hurl soldiers into the meat grinder while the feds would largely consider such tactics deplorable.

so my proposition is and I'm honestly not decided one way or the other within the context of this scenario how this is going to go.

Fed's about 15 years post Dominion war discover a wormhole into the SWU mostly in the unknown regions they do some exploring the advent of slipstream making this easier they find out about the Galactic civil war after making contact with a rebel fleet and offer them repairs how ever Fed HQ is weary about getting involved in another war especially one such a massive massive scale after the war but when the Death star just wastes a planet the Feds finally decide to officially intervene on behalf of the Rebs at first sending small scale support in the form of technology and industrial replicators but the imperial forces responding by wiping out a small fed colony in retribution killing about twenty or so millions civilians

the UFP response to this to declare complete and total war against the Empire, sidious meanwhile after the disaster at Yavin has pretty much ordered the gloves be taken off put down Rebel and federation forces at all costs

alliance HQ has been moved to the Feds main base near the wormhole the Feds control the system and the wormhole is protected by a Chin'toka like defense platform with their assets and shipyards protected by about seven Space stations five of which are old TOS era mushroom ones upgraded to function as giant defense platforms and repair facilities the other two are the size of Lya Station alpha

on the Imperial side sidious has ramped up production of the DS2 and has ordered the construction of as many new ships as the economy can support. they also discover a wormhole into the Beta Quadrant near Romulan and Klingon space and begin sending out imperial probes to scout for a back door invasion

stipulations: I guess to avoid a canon debate I'll stipulate The Clone Wars movie the TV Series the cartoon one as well the novels and of course the films. the force unleashed as well

standard canon applies to trek

my question is can the federation successfully aid the rebellion? can they successfully cripple imperial assets and help retake the Galaxy? if not what would a future map of the galaxy look like?

can the empire beat back the feds and successfully establish a beach head in the milky way?

Even if each Imperial world were no more advanced than modern day Earth (but was still self sufficient and orderly), conquest of the Empire by the Federation within any reasonable amount of time is a feat that makes conquering Russia in winter look like a fight against movie Mobile Infantry troops. It would take a Federation ship decades just to cross the diameter of the Star Wars galaxy once, and how would they know where the inhabited planets are? After four centuries the Federation has yet to plot all advanced civilizations in its own galaxy, how long would it take in a new galaxy with no prior knowledge?

Contrary to common ST doctrine, which considers 2000 troops to be a viable conquest, you would need in excess of tens of billion troops to maintain order in, for example, Coruscant. Tens of billions of troops would require a massive transport fleet dwarfing what the Federation could produce in several years of full military mobilization.

Then, let's say that for each Star Wars planet, on average, 1 billion troops are needed (a low end estimate regardless of whether you use just films or books; films because Coruscant alone would contain hundreds of trillions of civilians, and books because the EU states that there are 100 quadrillion civilians in the Star Wars galaxy, averaging out to about 50 billion people per planet as a somewhat high end estimate), for each of the million inhabited planets. That means that the Federation would have to amass a quadrillion military forces; several times the population of the entire Alpha Quadrant, and somehow feed, train and supply all of them.

And this is assuming that the Empire's military forces magically disappear.

So let's estimate how long it would take for the Federation to conquer the Empire, making several generous assumptions:

The Empire's military magically disappears
The Rebel Alliance does nothing about this
No new government forms out of this
The galaxy's various police forces magically disappear
No new militias form out of this
The Federation stagnates for the purposes of this debate; you can easily argue that the Federation just waits until it reaches 31st century tech or even Q level, but that nullfies the point of the debate, as for all you know whatever government system was in charge in Star Wars by that point could have evolved to similar levels. I've nullified the Empire's military, so this is a fair trade for purposes of Empire vs TOS/TNG era Federation, not future Star Wars vs future Federation.

Mapping out the Empire - 100 years. After 400 years (or, more technically, several thousand years) the Federation has yet to map out even the Alpha Quadrant, and yet they have to map out a foreign galaxy. However, their improving technology makes 100 seems like a mid to low end estimate.

Massing sufficient ships - After two years, the Federation had amassed about 35,000 ships; actually, that was the entire Federation and its allies, but let's be generous. To ship the quadrillion soldiers it would need to control a million planets at once, one would need in excess of ten trillion large ships; and that's assuming that each ship can hold 10,000 soldiers. That would mean that it would take the Federation, even if it somehow kept full scale mobilization for so long, 5.7 million years. I shit you not.

Getting enough people - Assuming a rather high growth rate of 20 trillion people born each year, a conscription of 10% of the populace, and 500 trillion Federation civilians at start, it would take five hundred and twenty years for enough people to be born and to reach maturity. And then this would require for the entire ground military to invade the galaxy, ignoring the Federation's neighbors.

Getting there - It would take in excess of thirty years for a Voyager speed ship to reach the further Star Wars planets in the outer rim.

100 plus 5.7 million plus 520 plus 30

And you will, I presume, post canon info that clearly shows Star Wars galaxy as being Milky Way sized? Beacouse Milky Way is quite large galaxy, second largest in our galaxy group, second only to Andromeda.

And please explain this:
http://picard578.hostoi.com/startrek-vs ... itory.html

"Vader stared at the motley array of stars displayed on the conference-room map while Tarkin and Admiral Motti conferred nearby. Interestingly, the first use of the most powerful destructive machine ever constructed had seemingly had no influence at all on that map, which in itself represented only a tiny fraction of this section of one modest-sized galaxy. "

"This station is the final link in the new-forged Imperial chain which will bind the million systems of the galactic Empire together once and for all."

"BAIL ORGANA: It could be a trap.
OBI-WAN: No, I don't think so. The Chancellor will not be able to control the thousands of star systems without keeping the Senate intact."

In short, Star Wars galaxy is modest, and Empire controls "million" star systems. Meanwhile, "Petition of 2000" is viewed as large number, and Obi-Wan comments that Republic has "thousands" of worlds. Also, there is not much room for expansion, as galaxy is already wery well mapped, and probably most of it is mapped. So Republic has up to 19 000 inhabited planets, and Empire might have up to 50 000; that is assuming that Republic only owned portion of galaxy and Empire managed to multiply it's possesions in 20 years between RotS and ANH. As for "controlling" them, it might be that these star systems referred have only small outposts or are just inside Imperial space, without any presence at all. Bespin definetly is one of these, and, depending on interpretation of quote, even Hoth might count. But we also must not forget that above quote is from novelization, which is lower canon than movies; therefore, quote from novelization must be explained so as to fit evidence from movies, not vice versa. As for Expanded Universe, it has no relevance at all.

(Also, last quote might mean that there are planets and their colonies; only planets get representation, or representation in Senate is based on sectors, as we see that there are only few hundred Senators, tops. However, if I'm not mistaken, either Amidala or Jar Jar were referred to as "Representative of Naboo", meaning that it is planetary based - might just be my mistake, thought).

EDIT: As for speeds in Voyager, TNG shows Galaxy class being able to pull off 9000 c in open space - sustained speed. However, Voyagers speed of 900c in uncharted hazardous space is not unbelievable, since it must scan and map anything ahead before passing throught that space; meaning that Galaxy class, with it's presumably longer sensory range, would probably have greater "safe speed" in uncharted space. I'm sure you'll agree that slamming into star isn't really entertaining prospect...

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: So let's estimate how long it would take for the Federation to conquer the Empire, making several generous assumptions:

The Empire's military magically disappears
The Rebel Alliance does nothing about this
No new government forms out of this
The galaxy's various police forces magically disappear
No new militias form out of this
The Federation stagnates for the purposes of this debate; you can easily argue that the Federation just waits until it reaches 31st century tech or even Q level, but that nullfies the point of the debate, as for all you know whatever government system was in charge in Star Wars by that point could have evolved to similar levels. I've nullified the Empire's military, so this is a fair trade for purposes of Empire vs TOS/TNG era Federation, not future Star Wars vs future Federation.

do you..even pay attention to the posts made that you reply too?

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Mapping out the Empire - 100 years. After 400 years (or, more technically, several thousand years) the Federation has yet to map out even the Alpha Quadrant, and yet they have to map out a foreign galaxy. However, their improving technology makes 100 seems like a mid to low end estimate

.

they have access to rebellion starcharts a foot hold in the galaxy and slipstream and transwarp the rest was a heap of nonsense