Starfleet Jedi

Imagine that you're the president of the Federation. Your goal is to invade the Star Wars galaxy as of the Galactic Alliance. Why? Because you want our stuff. I'll play the role of the Chief of State...uh, let's just say Leia, in an AU. So anyway, for some magic reason (read: Q, or the Force, or both), the SW galaxy "far far away" is put just 100,000 light years away from the Milky Way next to the Alpha Quadrant. All barriers to both warp and hyperdrive are removed.

Goal: Conquer the Star Wars galaxy. Like, conquer it and put it completely under your control. And do it within your lifetime. Somehow, you are granted president for life.

Time to prepare: 6 months both ways.

Rules and Restrictions (you may not like these, but this is to keep things fair and restrict derailing topics. If you feel that any of these are too unfair, please PM me.):

We follow Chase's canon policy
Star Trek EU is non-canon, as are the tech books
You will not use any Treknologies of the week and vice versa. No Genesis devices, no phase-cloak, etc.
You will consider the time limit of 6 months in your preparations.
You cannot convince the other factions to join you, but to be fair they will magically be peaceful and docile in your invasions.
Visuals > dialogue, unless if it is a clear glitch or error.
The SW galaxy is 50,000 LY long, a nice compromise.

The purpose of this thread is to get you guys to explain how your side actually goes on the offensive with its slower FTL drive and inferior industrial reserves.

Then you worded it wrong. Beacouse Star Trek as a whole has advantage in manpower, FTL speed, firepower (M/AM > fusion), industry, fleet size, etc.

And in any sensible sci-fi, it's dialogue > visuals; in Star Trek its story > dialogue > visuals.

You know, the most disconcerting part is that he refuses even to be corrected about Chee's name. It's Leland Chee, not "Chase".

I mean, one can have honest or (more frequently) dishonest disagreement over details of the debate, but refusal to budge even on an obvious and readily demonstrable fact like that just astounds me.

In any case, since there is no such person as "Chase", there is no extra canon to consider, therefore I would be following the Lucas SW canon as seen primarily in the films and TCW.

For the purposes of the engagement, I presume the Federation would have to view the Alliance as an existential threat, meaning that some or most of Starfleet's usual self-restraints would be null and void.

The short version would run like this. First, assemble a Federation battlefleet. I'd prefer a couple of thousand starships to seal the deal, but I could go with less if I had to. Then, clobber my way to Coruscant.

The shortest and most direct route is preferable, since I would at least temporarily avoid certain logistical problems inherent in a drawn-out struggle, and Starfleet's "antimatter economy" isn't readily compatible with trying to "live off the land" in the Star Wars galaxy. But I imagine it would require an extended period of frequent or constant high energy usage before this would become a concern.

Assuming a fairly quick trip to Coruscant with minimal losses, I achieve space superiority in the system quickly enough and offer terms for their surrender. Worst case, I lay siege and blockade the planet, while bandying about terms like "General Order 24" after ever so accidentally leaving a copy of it around somewhere or somesuch similar threatening move like showing "The Die is Cast: a Retrospective" or something.

Given the supply traffic for Coruscant, a blockade would most likely quickly bring the capital to its knees, and a handful of surgical strikes from high orbit would convince them of Starfleet's capacity to rain down destruction from a range beyond their capacity to respond. With the fall of Coruscant other worlds would likely fall in line quickly enough.

The goal, though, must be decapitation in the sense of forcing the enemy to declare fealty and then be assimilated carefully over time. That is, if Coruscant surrenders you want to be able to turn their local supply spigots back on, rather than try to evacuate or else feed and clothe the overpopulated capital world using Federation resources sent in from afar.

Worst case, I would be forced somehow into a long and drawn out conflict resembling WW2's island-hopping campaign, requiring the setup and defense of fixed fortifications along my supply lines and even the occasional ground campaign. Worst case also would involve an inadequate blockade challenged from the outside as a cover to allow the escape of the post-Imperial SW leadership to another location, which would basically enable an insurgency or even the terribly inconvenient distraction of a well-organized counter-offensive into the Federation's territory. And, of course, the longer things go on, the greater the chances of SW forces to gain knowledge of advanced Federation technology.

Anywho, that's the basics, and since my short version's already too long, I'll conclude here for now.

2046 wrote:
For the purposes of the engagement, I presume the Federation would have to view the Alliance as an existential threat, meaning that some or most of Starfleet's usual self-restraints would be null and void.

so they'd react the way they did with the Dominion? and Klingons? Really cut loose in an industrial sense?

2046 wrote: The short version would run like this. First, assemble a Federation battlefleet. I'd prefer a couple of thousand starships to seal the deal, but I could go with less if I had to. Then, clobber my way to Coruscant.

you probably know this better than I do being DS and all but wouldn't you want to cater to Federation advantages? Say create small fleets of a few hundred ships per fleet. Say with one or two big ones with industrial replicators, Fed ships are faster in STL and have greater weapons range. Why not do Mongol style raids where you create several raiding parties that hit separate key areas y'know cut a huge blazing path across allot of important territory destroy as much as possible and then either head home or move towards Curoscant link up and blockade/siege?

2046 wrote:The shortest and most direct route is preferable, since I would at least temporarily avoid certain logistical problems inherent in a drawn-out struggle, and Starfleet's "antimatter economy" isn't readily compatible with trying to "live off the land" in the Star Wars galaxy. But I imagine it would require an extended period of frequent or constant high energy usage before this would become a concern.

well you have the option of not straining the economy by making more of a "destroy everything critical and leave" no boot landing no occupation just cripple smash and leave everything in a state of depression/exhaustion

2046 wrote:Assuming a fairly quick trip to Coruscant with minimal losses, I achieve space superiority in the system quickly enough and offer terms for their surrender. Worst case, I lay siege and blockade the planet, while bandying about terms like "General Order 24" after ever so accidentally leaving a copy of it around somewhere or somesuch similar threatening move like showing "The Die is Cast: a Retrospective" or something.

EU wise curoscant can't even produce enough water for it's populace blockading it for more than a month will probably result in hundreds of millions of deaths due to famine exposure and all that per week soon after

2046 wrote:Given the supply traffic for Coruscant, a blockade would most likely quickly bring the capital to its knees, and a handful of surgical strikes from high orbit would convince them of Starfleet's capacity to rain down destruction from a range beyond their capacity to respond. With the fall of Coruscant other worlds would likely fall in line quickly enough.

a blockade that lasts longer than a year would probably depopulate the planet The Feds wont do this..but you don't really need too shatter its moon drop it into orbit..or something and leave

it's vicious and cruel but it's expedient and realistically the UFP isn't holding the alliance

2046 wrote:The goal, though, must be decapitation in the sense of forcing the enemy to declare fealty and then be assimilated carefully over time. That is, if Coruscant surrenders you want to be able to turn their local supply spigots back on, rather than try to evacuate or else feed and clothe the overpopulated capital world using Federation resources sent in from afar.

why bother feeding them? You're goal is to beat the alliance not save the galaxy from itself...let them die let them starve..break them so utterly any retaliation will be decades if not centuries away

2046 wrote:Worst case, I would be forced somehow into a long and drawn out conflict resembling WW2's island-hopping campaign, requiring the setup and defense of fixed fortifications along my supply lines and even the occasional ground campaign. Worst case also would involve an inadequate blockade challenged from the outside as a cover to allow the escape of the post-Imperial SW leadership to another location, which would basically enable an insurgency or even the terribly inconvenient distraction of a well-organized counter-offensive into the Federation's territory. And, of course, the longer things go on, the greater the chances of SW forces to gain knowledge of advanced Federation technology.

which is why any ones best bet for invasion is to conduct a Sherman or Genghis Khan style campaign bomb break smash and leave everything ruined

thoughts?

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Okay. So, as you all seem to agree, Star Trek wins. Why? Because you like Star Trek better. But some of you agree simply because you believe that Star Trek has the better technology because it looks fancier, and attempt to twist firepower calculations, industrial might, numbers, FTL speeds and such to your advantage.

Sigh. This opening right here is against the board rules as it is a blatent insult and trolling. I give you one chance to withdraw this or it becomes a warning.


The rest is your choice to make. You can decide that the LFL canon hierarchy is the rule of the day, though it does nothing to help you since even in Leeland CHEE's accounting of it, the movies, screenplays, radio adaptations, novelizations, ect, and the SW:TCW all still outrank anything in the EU. Thus you are left with firepower far below ICS levels.

Remove all restraints on warp drive? Seriously? You do know that would make warp extremely fast, in the million c plus range with navigational restrictions lifted, don't you?
-Mike

Admiral Breetai wrote:with six months? 25,000 Dominion ships swarm alliance turf virus bomb and bombard the fuck out of everything and kamikaze shipyards and other such things. While the alliance is dealing with it's own idiocy incompetence and catastrophic loss of life and epidemics The Dominion sends another fleet.

Play nice now. It's his OP. You're not King of the Dominion. You're President of the UFP. How would you do it with only the UFP and it's resources?
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:
Play nice now. It's his OP. You're not King of the Dominion. You're President of the UFP. How would you do it with only the UFP and it's resources?
-Mike

oh we're only plotting for the feds? See I didn't fully read his OP because of the trolling in the opening sentence.

I outlined my Federation strategy in my reply to DS: suffice to say: I do to Curoscant what the Mongols did to Baghdad and what Sherman did to the south essentially. Deprivation of food medicine and industry no occupation no invasion just do as much damage as possible to leave them in a dark age and run away very fast.

Maybe Trilithium bomb curoscants star: unless he banned that

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Goal: Conquer the Star Wars galaxy. Like, conquer it and put it completely under your control. And do it within your lifetime. Somehow, you are granted president for life.

Short answer: I wouldn't.

Longer answer: I wouldn't because the sheer size of the Galactic Empire/Republic/Alliance makes it undigestiable. Simply too massive in relation to the Federation to be annexed and brought into fold at anything but the most sedated pace.

Longer answer still: I wouldn't because the sheer size of the Galactic Empire/Republic/Alliance makes it undigestiable. Simply too massive in relation to the Federation to be annexed and brought into fold at anything but the most sedated pace however assuming I had to come up with some operation at least as a last ditch option in case our relations with the Galactic Alliance go south I'd try to remember some of the most crucial moments in a war are before the first shots are fired. For starters I'd create an "open door" policy if it wasn't already the case allowing nonfederation members entrance into the SW Galaxy followed by covertly encouraging the Ferengi, The Orions and any other scofflaw to take up stake and do what comes naturally to them. Nothing like alien maraurders setting up court on the hinterland to drain military resources.

Next the Starwars galaxy is teeming with its own cartels of lowlifes. I'd see what could be found in tracking them down and funding their merry way of life. Forcing the Alliance to either suffer reduced shipping, something they would have trouble accepting, or convoy tying up more warships in frivolious activities.

Third the Alliance is made up of an extremely diverse lot of individuals from as far a range as the remainder of the Galactic Empire, it is a cauldron of corruption and ambition. My antics likely will have made this worse and into this malstrome I'll provide what resources I can to the most antagonistic members setting them against each other leading to succession attempts and if I'm lucky a full blown civil war.

And into this, beset both within their house and out of it, my armada will arrive as a concetrated and unyielding force. A unified warband smashing aside war fleets squandered and weakened in petty conflicts bringing the Alliance to its knees.

Admiral Breetai wrote: Maybe Trilithium bomb curoscants star: unless he banned that

He'd likely consider that a technology of the week so yeah.

sonofccn wrote:

Admiral Breetai wrote: Maybe Trilithium bomb curoscants star: unless he banned that

He'd likely consider that a technology of the week so yeah.

Trilithium weaponary has appeared multiple times in Trek. It's nature as a highly toxic (to Humans) substance is well established since "Starship Mine" in TNG, and used as such in DS9's "For the Uniform". It's use as a sunburster is also twice demonstrated, or nearly so, in "Generations" and "By Inferno's Light".
-Mike

2046 wrote:You know, the most disconcerting part is that he refuses even to be corrected about Chee's name. It's Leland Chee, not "Chase".

Congratulations in displaying your grammatical superiority.

I mean, one can have honest or (more frequently) dishonest disagreement over details of the debate, but refusal to budge even on an obvious and readily demonstrable fact like that just astounds me.

In any case, since there is no such person as "Chase", there is no extra canon to consider, therefore I would be following the Lucas SW canon as seen primarily in the films and TCW.

This is my thread. If you don't like my rules, then go make your own. Besides, I include an entity that only exists in the EU, so trying to only apply "Star Wars canon" is hilariously futile.

For the purposes of the engagement, I presume the Federation would have to view the Alliance as an existential threat, meaning that some or most of Starfleet's usual self-restraints would be null and void.

You're implying that the Alliance did not view the Romulans, for example, as "threats".

The short version would run like this. First, assemble a Federation battlefleet. I'd prefer a couple of thousand starships to seal the deal, but I could go with less if I had to.

Time: Six months?

Then, clobber my way to Coruscant.

Time to find Coruscant: Decades? Centuries? As Chief of State I could order a lockdown on all disclosure of hyperspace routes or the coordinates of GA planets. You will have to find Coruscant manually, and after centuries the Federation has yet to chart out its own galaxy.

The shortest and most direct route is preferable, since I would at least temporarily avoid certain logistical problems inherent in a drawn-out struggle, and Starfleet's "antimatter economy" isn't readily compatible with trying to "live off the land" in the Star Wars galaxy. But I imagine it would require an extended period of frequent or constant high energy usage before this would become a concern.

Yes, and you're going to be traveling with your slow warp drive for at least many years, if not decades. In about a year I could likely build a death star. If it takes you 5 years, I will have five death stars around Coruscant. In a decade I'll have ten.

Remember the speed with which the second DS was constructed, or at least almost completed. Remember that it was obviously built in secret, since the Rebels needed spies to find out about it. Remember that it was built in the outer rim, not in the core where there are plenty of shipyards and fleets to help. And don't claim that this somehow crippled the Empire's economy, because if it cost that much money, it could not have possibly been kep a secret. That's like a "secret" 100 trillion dollar project; it's impossible even in a tryanny. Meanwhile, the Galactic Alliance's economy is about equivalent to that of the Empire, so don't go down that road either.

Assuming a fairly quick trip to Coruscant with minimal losses, I achieve space superiority in the system quickly enough and offer terms for their surrender.

Except that, thanks to hyperdrive's enormous speed, reinforcements from every fleet across the galaxy would arrive within hours, whereas you cannot send any more ships from the Milky Way within 30 years, given the 100,000 light year gap.

Worst case, I lay siege and blockade the planet,

You cannot blockade the planet effectively in all dimensions with just 6 month's worth of warships, especially not fast, single manned craft such as X wings or even larger craft like the Falcon. You also cannot penetrate Coruscant's planetary shield, which is authorized under the OP. Or if you refuse to acknowledge its existence, an overlapping layer of theater shields that the Rebels could activate on the fly, which can resist the bombardment of the Executor and several ISD's for an indefinite amount of time.

while bandying about terms like "General Order 24" after ever so accidentally leaving a copy of it around somewhere or somesuch similar threatening move like showing "The Die is Cast: a Retrospective" or something.

No threat behind a planetary shield or overlapping theater shields.

Given the supply traffic for Coruscant, a blockade would most likely quickly bring the capital to its knees,

If it is successful, as there are more commercial ships going in and out Coruscant than your fleet has torpedos.

A fleet of 30,000 ships (larger than the Federation's Dominion War fleet built up over years) would have about 7.5 million torpedos in total. This is nothing compared to the billions (at least) ships that go in and out of Coruscant every day; you see ships coming in from random positioins on the surface, and the entire planet is a city. Coruscant's population is also in the dozens of trillions at least if you apply just NY population densities to the surface, hundreds if you take into account the vertical factor. I could have a fleet of trillions of random civilian ships constructed and controlled by computers, and have them randomly all fly out at once and watch as you waste your precious photon torpedos on them. Your phasers are too limited by line of sight and distance, as its beam would not be effective against fast targets over more than a light second in theory; in practice, phaser ranges in ST tend to be only a few kilometers in large scale battles.

and a handful of surgical strikes from high orbit would convince them of Starfleet's capacity to rain down destruction from a range beyond their capacity to respond.

Coruscant has defensive batteries. Within a year or less I can build a Death Star. Within a decade I can have ten or even more given streamlined production. This will be in the 6 months of prep and the transit time of your slow moving fleet.

With the fall of Coruscant other worlds would likely fall in line quickly enough.

Wrong. The NR lost Coruscant thrice (or twice?) and rebounded those instances. Coruscant is no doubt important, but it is not a magical planet in which everybody will lay down and die because it is gone. It is still just one planet out of millions. The British took DC and yet did not conclusively win the war of 1812. You need evidence to substantiate your claim that the SW galaxy is so dependant on a single planet.

The goal, though, must be decapitation in the sense of forcing the enemy to declare fealty and then be assimilated carefully over time. That is, if Coruscant surrenders you want to be able to turn their local supply spigots back on, rather than try to evacuate or else feed and clothe the overpopulated capital world using Federation resources sent in from afar.

Why will they need to surrender? Why would any other planet need to? They know that you have limited warp fuel, limited antimatter reserves, limited torpedos, limited crew and most importantly limited time. The rest of the galaxy can just shrug their shoulders and keep on living life. Your fleet goes around and has perhaps enough time to cross another half of the galaxy before your crew dies of old age. You can't occupy even Naboo due to low manpower.

You have no industrial capabilities, and have to deal with one that can construct a Death Star in a year and maintain the giant cityscape of Coruscant. Millions (billions?) of shipyards that produce billions of private ships every year (or trillions; any less and ships would be so impossibly rare that only the super-super elite could afford them, which ANH deomstrates is false, and the RotS: novel confirms a population of "quadrillions") means that the SW private sector is also impossibly larger than the entire Alpha Quadrant.

Worst case, I would be forced somehow into a long and drawn out conflict resembling WW2's island-hopping campaign,

So a single fleet of a few thousand ships, a few million crew, a supply line 100,000 light years long and no way of reasonably refueling or constructing new ships is going to try and fight a war of attrition against a galaxy?

The Germans were crushed largely because of an 8:1 industrial disparity against them. 1 million: one? A billion to one?

requiring the setup and defense of fixed fortifications along my supply lines and even the occasional ground campaign.

Ground campaigns would fail horribly; you have but a few million troops at most against an entire galaxy, and I fail to see how "fixed fortifications" will defend a supply line of 100,000 light years.

[quote\ Worst case also would involve an inadequate blockade challenged from the outside as a cover to allow the escape of the post-Imperial SW leadership to another location, which would basically enable an insurgency or even the terribly inconvenient distraction of a well-organized counter-offensive into the Federation's territory. And, of course, the longer things go on, the greater the chances of SW forces to gain knowledge of advanced Federation technology.

Anywho, that's the basics, and since my short version's already too long, I'll conclude here for now.[/quote]

To put in perspective how hopeless your invasion plan is, at 3000 C it would take 33.3333 years for your fleet to reach the SW galaxy. That's enough time for me to build over 30 Death Stars, quadrillions of fighter craft, and my population alone would have likely doubled. I could have Coruscant protected by a fleet that spans the entire star system. I could have had Coruscant evacuated and rigged with bombs planted in its core that would explode when your fleet reaches orbit of the planet.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Breetai, I recall earlier, in one of the threads in which you were the OP, in which you complained to me about contesting one of your thread parameters banning the EU on the grounds that it was your thread, and therefore your rules. Please do not apply a double standard. I also ask you to PM me over any complaints over the OP, not openly flame me over it.

Now, care to actually debate the topic?

I did like always you aren't debating back as for your OP I'll attack it all I want seeing as you are essentially openly baiting. I mean you are removing any limits on warp yet claim it will take decades to get anywhere never mind we've seen warp breach galaxies.

DS is not wrong either he can blockade curoscant with a dozen or so Fed ships they're that superior to the other models around town

Mike DiCenso wrote:

sonofccn wrote:

Admiral Breetai wrote: Maybe Trilithium bomb curoscants star: unless he banned that

He'd likely consider that a technology of the week so yeah.

Trilithium weaponary has appeared multiple times in Trek. It's nature as a highly toxic (to Humans) substance is well established since "Starship Mine" in TNG, and used as such in DS9's "For the Uniform". It's use as a sunburster is also twice demonstrated, or nearly so, in "Generations" and "By Inferno's Light".
-Mike

That may be true but I'll still lay dollars to donuts he considers it tech of the week. :)

SWST wrote:Time: Six months?

Family Business wrote:KASIDY: It's not what you think. It's kind of a family obligation. You see, my youngest brother, he's a colonist on Cestus Three.
SISKO: That's on the other side of the Federation.

Way of the Warrior wrote:SISKO: How far is Cestus Three?
KASIDY: Eight weeks at maximum warp.
SISKO: To see a real baseball game, it might be worth the trip.
KASIDY: If you ever decide to go, I'll take you there myself. As long as you don't mind travelling by freighter.

So two months to cross the entire federation considering a dozen plus ships are minutes from Earth and the fleet numbers in the 10,000+ range I don't think pooling a thousand over six month period is going to stretch anything. As well at 48,000c, a low figure and one which may be freighter specific, it would take merely a year or so to cross a fifty thousand wide galaxy.

Time to find Coruscant: Decades? Centuries?

Down side of being a Galactic power, odds are good any random dungheap world with a starport you touch down on knows about Coruscant and how to get there. Converting starcharts may be a bit of an issue but six months is a long time to hammer out the details.

and after centuries the Federation has yet to chart out its own galaxy.

About two centuries which is still better than the 25,000 years and there still being Unknown regions.

Remember the speed with which the second DS was constructed, or at least almost completed.

The second DS was roughly 50% give or take after backbreaking and frantic labor quite likely over several years.

Remember that it was obviously built in secret, since the Rebels needed spies to find out about it.

Remember the Empire was an evil dictatorship and that space is freaking huge.

And don't claim that this somehow crippled the Empire's economy, because if it cost that much money, it could not have possibly been kep a secret. That's like a "secret" 100 trillion dollar project; it's impossible even in a tryanny.

Well actually there are subtle indicators that possibly the empire is straining for budget, the downplay of holos Mike pointed out, the "Imperilization" of increasingly farther out planets, the shoddy and threadbare built TIEs, the complete lack of the older vessels in the movies through Lucas could correct this one at any time considering how edit happy he is.

As to being kept secret how in feth are you going to know they have this secret project? The goverment claims X in take of resources built Y number of Star Destroyers how will you know that isn't God's honest truth? Short of an amazingly complex network to moniter expenditures and output you'd have no clue the Empire was diverting anything anywhere.

whereas you cannot send any more ships from the Milky Way within 30 years, given the 100,000 light year gap.

You typed 100,000 kilometers between the galaxies and a 50,000 lightyear wide SW Galaxy.

Or if you refuse to acknowledge its existence, an overlapping layer of theater shields that the Rebels could activate on the fly

It was in a prepared base hardly on the fly.

If it is successful, as there are more commercial ships going in and out Coruscant than your fleet has torpedos.

I'd like numbers on commercial shipping actually as well as your reasoning ship commanders will needlessly sacrifice their lives and their ships as "bullet bags" to try and wear down the fleet for you.

This is nothing compared to the billions (at least) ships that go in and out of Coruscant every day; you see ships coming in from random positioins on the surface, and the entire planet is a city.

An empty unsubstaniated number.

Coruscant's population is also in the dozens of trillions at least if you apply just NY population densities to the surface, hundreds if you take into account the vertical factor.

here it states population is between 1-3 trillion. Not dozens.

I could have a fleet of trillions of random civilian ships constructed and controlled by computers, and have them randomly all fly out at once and watch as you waste your precious photon torpedos on them.

Unsubstantiated where these trillions of civilian ships will come from in a matter of months, the needed AI to control them, etc.

Your phasers are too limited by line of sight and distance, as its beam would not be effective against fast targets over more than a light second in theory

I don't consider a light second battle range particuarly short and the Empire would get down and pray to the various dark Sith gods for this "limitation".

in practice, phaser ranges in ST tend to be only a few kilometers in large scale battles.

Sigh. Merely fighting at closer ranges does not disprove the longer ranged incidents. So in pratice they can bulleyes at 300,000 kilometers.

Wrong. The NR lost Coruscant thrice (or twice?) and rebounded those instances.

Unless I'm mistaken losing Coruscant to the Vong so badly crippled the NR they for all intents and purposes disbanded and formed the Galactic Alliance. Hardly evidence losing Coruscant isn't a big deal.

Why will they need to surrender? Why would any other planet need to? They know that you have limited warp fuel, limited antimatter reserves, limited torpedos, limited crew and most importantly limited time.

Actually when your staring under the guns you don't know this. Your enemy appears to have unlimited resources, endless waves of soldiers and is 100% devoted to the cause. As well I wouldn't harp to strongly on limited resources, Voyager showed that while a strain a warship can survive without any logistic support and any invasion will have a far better supply chain that what Voyager had.

Millions (billions?) of shipyards that produce billions of private ships every year (or trillions; any less and ships would be so impossibly rare that only the super-super elite could afford them, which ANH deomstrates is false

Once again I must ask for solid, concrete canon evidence not loose assertions.

and the RotS: novel confirms a population of "quadrillions") means that the SW private sector is also impossibly larger than the entire Alpha Quadrant.

Considering we don't know the population of the Alpha Quadrent I find this a strange assertion. However since we are talking about an entire Galaxy of inhabitence verses a quarter, Klingons for instance come from the Beta quadrent, it is possible.

To put in perspective how hopeless your invasion plan is, at 3000 C it would take 33.3333 years for your fleet to reach the SW galaxy.

More like a microsecond, you placed them less than a light second apart.

That's enough time for me to build over 30 Death Stars

Your build time is severely off and lacking evidence it could have been continued past the DS2.

quadrillions of fighter craft

Evidence they can build a quadrillion fighter crafts?

I could have Coruscant protected by a fleet that spans the entire star system

Actually giving the actual time frame we're really talking about you'd be lucky to drag your conventual fleet into the same star system and that won't come close to filling an entire star system.

I could have had Coruscant evacuated and rigged with bombs planted in its core that would explode when your fleet reaches orbit of the planet.

Move three trillion refugees just to rig up your capitol planet to explode and hope to destroy a fleet, which best case scenario wouldn't be crippling, of your enemies at the cost of what may be one your most important industral worlds? Hardly a war winner.

Admiral Breetai wrote:

StarWarsStarTrek wrote:Breetai, I recall earlier, in one of the threads in which you were the OP, in which you complained to me about contesting one of your thread parameters banning the EU on the grounds that it was your thread, and therefore your rules. Please do not apply a double standard. I also ask you to PM me over any complaints over the OP, not openly flame me over it.

Now, care to actually debate the topic?

I did like always you aren't debating back as for your OP I'll attack it all I want seeing as you are essentially openly baiting. I mean you are removing any limits on warp yet claim it will take decades to get anywhere never mind we've seen warp breach galaxies.

DS is not wrong either he can blockade curoscant with a dozen or so Fed ships they're that superior to the other models around town

Knock it off you two. I won't remind you each a second time. Breetai, SWST's OP is fine except for the inflammatory opening statement he made. If he sets up the SW canon hierarchy according to Chee's interpretation, fine. So be it. What that means is most of the EU is non-canon anyway since the movies, their novelizations, the radioplays, etc, are G-canon and override it, as does the T-canon SW:TCW. At least as far as tech and power generation goes, anyway.
-Mike

sonofccn wrote:

SWST wrote:Time: Six months?

Family Business wrote:KASIDY: It's not what you think. It's kind of a family obligation. You see, my youngest brother, he's a colonist on Cestus Three.
SISKO: That's on the other side of the Federation.

Way of the Warrior wrote:SISKO: How far is Cestus Three?
KASIDY: Eight weeks at maximum warp.
SISKO: To see a real baseball game, it might be worth the trip.
KASIDY: If you ever decide to go, I'll take you there myself. As long as you don't mind travelling by freighter.

So two months to cross the entire federation considering a dozen plus ships are minutes from Earth and the fleet numbers in the 10,000+ range I don't think pooling a thousand over six month period is going to stretch anything. As well at 48,000c, a low figure and one which may be freighter specific, it would take merely a year or so to cross a fifty thousand wide galaxy.

My question was in response to darkstar's assertion that he could build a massive fleet of several thousand warships.

I would also question why you assert that 48,000 C is a "low" figure despite the phrase "maximum" warp being used.

Down side of being a Galactic power, odds are good any random dungheap world with a starport you touch down on knows about Coruscant and how to get there. Converting starcharts may be a bit of an issue but six months is a long time to hammer out the details.

Already addressed this with a lockdown.

About two centuries which is still better than the 25,000 years and there still being Unknown regions.

Irrelevant and untrue. Star Wars is the defender here, and you have failed to address the problem.

The second DS was roughly 50% give or take after backbreaking and frantic labor quite likely over several years.

Actually, in C canon it was 6 months according to Shadows of the Empire.

Remember the Empire was an evil dictatorship and that space is freaking huge.

...does this not merely prove my point?

Well actually there are subtle indicators that possibly the empire is straining for budget, the downplay of holos Mike pointed out, the "Imperilization" of increasingly farther out planets, the shoddy and threadbare built TIEs, the complete lack of the older vessels in the movies through Lucas could correct this one at any time considering how edit happy he is.

All of these transpired before the construction of the Death Star went underway.

As to being kept secret how in feth are you going to know they have this secret project? The goverment claims X in take of resources built Y number of Star Destroyers how will you know that isn't God's honest truth? Short of an amazingly complex network to moniter expenditures and output you'd have no clue the Empire was diverting anything anywhere.

...so you're admitting that the Death Star was both secret and very difficult to find out about. Thank you?

You typed 100,000 kilometers between the galaxies and a 50,000 lightyear wide SW Galaxy.

Well my bad, it was supposed to be light years.

It was in a prepared base hardly on the fly.

I said activated on the fly, however "prepared" Hoth was, you can't honestly think that it was more prepared or packing better defensive systems than the galactic capital, especially if you find it so important that the Alliance would collapse without it.

I'd like numbers on commercial shipping actually as well as your reasoning ship commanders will needlessly sacrifice their lives and their ships as "bullet bags" to try and wear down the fleet for you.

Around 200,000 people a day visit the United States as tourists, about 0.06% of the population. Coruscant's percentage is definitely higher given that it's the center of the entire galaxy, outside sources are within the same government, many people would have jobs that require commuting to and from Coruscant and there are millions of planets of people to arrive from; Coruscant's population is under 0.01% of the galactic population, compared to the United States being around 5%.

So therefore, you can expect around 100 billion people commuting in and out every day at the very least (and this is still rather low, given Coruscant's extreme interdependence with the galaxy).

I wasn't literally saying that they'd all suicide rush the blockade, but that any blockade would be futile with just a few thousand ships.

An empty unsubstaniated number.

See above.

here it states population is between 1-3 trillion. Not dozens.

Those are population estimates, and clearly wrong if you use basic math.

Unsubstantiated where these trillions of civilian ships will come from in a matter of months,

No, in a matter of decades given the time needed to traverse 100,000 + light years, as I mistakenly used km instead and locate Coruscant. We already know that over 6 months the Death Star 2 can be constructed to around 60% completion, and it masses probably quadrillions of small fighter craft (I could do the math, but the exact number is not important) and is far more complex.

the needed AI to control them, etc.

AI in Star Wars is very widespread, whether or not you consider it superior to ST ai, and you don't really need complex AI at all for the plan, just basic programming.

I don't consider a light second battle range particuarly short and the Empire would get down and pray to the various dark Sith gods for this "limitation".

I said "in theory".

Sigh. Merely fighting at closer ranges does not disprove the longer ranged incidents. So in pratice they can bulleyes at 300,000 kilometers.

Yes it does, as you use it just as much, if they fight at close ranges in times when being able to fight at longer ranges would have been an advantage. In the Dominion War, starships are shown consistently missing not-that-fast moving ST fighters doing very close range strafing runs, so how do you expect them to stop small craft accelerating outwards from random points from the planet's surface?

Unless I'm mistaken losing Coruscant to the Vong so badly crippled the NR they for all intents and purposes disbanded and formed the Galactic Alliance. Hardly evidence losing Coruscant isn't a big deal.

It actually crippled the Vong even more. What crippled the New Republic was the fact that its senators betrayed it and ran away to save their own hides. That isn't to say that Coruscant wasn't important, but capturing it does not guarantee victory any more than capturing DC did for the British.

]Actually when your staring under the guns you don't know this. Your enemy appears to have unlimited resources, endless waves of soldiers and is 100% devoted to the cause. As well I wouldn't harp to strongly on limited resources, Voyager showed that while a strain a warship can survive without any logistic support and any invasion will have a far better supply chain that what Voyager had.

Several problems with this quite frankly ridiculous assertion. First, I play the role of the Chief of State to offset the ST president having an OOU outlook, as is specified in the OP.

Secondly, you're assuming that Star Wars military leaders are backwards retards that would assume for absolutely no reason that the enemy has "unlimited resources" (even though they are clearly using physical projectiles as a main combat weapon), endless waves of soldiers (even though their fleet is clearly large, but not larger than a few thousand ships, and basic math can show that this does not provide room for endless waves of soldiers), or that they are 100% devoted to the cause (even though there is nothing to substantiate this, at all). No, really, this assertion you seem to have pulled out of thin air. There is absolutely no reason for any intelligent person to overestimate the Federation fleet to any extreme.

Thirdly the Voyager hardly survived with ease, and hardly had to fight constant battles or blockade an entire planet.

Once again I must ask for solid, concrete canon evidence not loose assertions.

Simple; we know that Han Solo has a ship, the Millennium Falcon. We know that he is not rich. We know that the SW galaxy consists of 100 quadrillion sapient beings, so therefore there must be at least hundreds of trillion of ships in order for even 0.01% of the populace to own one, which is already bordering on being a rare commodity which they clearly are not.

Honestly, your refusal to acknowledge the scale of a galactic civilization to even the slightest degree is silly and irritating. There is something called "common sense" and "loose calculations" that work here. I'm pretty sure that if I claim that SW must have trillions of bathrooms, you will demand for "canon evidence". Or if I claim that they have no shortage of hydrogen, you will demand citations. What's next? You demand evidence that the Alliance has a greater industrial might than Nazi Germany?

In order to survive as a civilization, Star Wars would have to produce hundreds of quadrillions of pounds of food just to be able to eat. Heck, the artisans of the galaxy likely make billions of kilograms worth of paintings and sculptures every hour with their hands. You aren't fully grasping how large a galaxy is.

]Considering we don't know the population of the Alpha Quadrent I find this a strange assertion.

Earth has a population of 12 billion. Most Federation colonies we see have populations in the thousands. Based on these numbers, the Federation has not passed one trillion citizens. But it is true that the estimated death of the Dominion war was in the hundreds of billions, so it would be reasonable to postulate an Alpha Quadrant population of hundreds of trillions at the very, very most.

However since we are talking about an entire Galaxy of inhabitence verses a quarter, Klingons for instance come from the Beta quadrent, it is possible.

It is not just possible, it is certain. The Star Wars galaxy has been spacefaring for 25,000+ years.

More like a microsecond, you placed them less than a light second apart.

Now that you know that there was a typo involved, feel free to rebute the point.

Your build time is severely off and lacking evidence it could have been continued past the DS2.

You've got it backwards; construction time gets easier after you successfully build prototypes, such as what the Death Star 1 and 2 essentially were.

Evidence they can build a quadrillion fighter crafts?

The Death Stars mass far more.

Actually giving the actual time frame we're really talking about you'd be lucky to drag your conventual fleet into the same star system and that won't come close to filling an entire star system.

That's bullshit. You know as well as I that hyperdrive allows for trans-galactic travel within hours.

Move three trillion refugees just to rig up your capitol planet to explode and hope to destroy a fleet, which best case scenario wouldn't be crippling, of your enemies at the cost of what may be one your most important industral worlds? Hardly a war winner.

On the contrary, based on darkstar's plan, which involves blockading Coruscant with his entire fleet, I would cripple the Federation's entire invasion force at the cost of one planet out of millions of inhabited planets and many hundreds of billions of uninhabited ones. Meanwhile, his entire navy would be dead, the Federation would be open to invasion and building up another fleet (and trying to restore morale after your earlier fleet was destroyed) would take decades. Actually, that's assuming that word would ever get back to the Federation. If it does, my ships would travel faster than your FTL communication, so the counter-invasion would happen before you find out that the invasion failed. Losing Coruscant would be a loss, yes, but not nearly as crippling as losing your entire fleet.

Anyway given you can wage a galaxy spanning war with an army of millions in Star Wars, and it is odd for one planet to send aid to another even if they are part of the same group(Dac and Naboo).

The GFFA is filled with peace at any cost hippies compared to the UFP who look like blood thirsty war mongers in comparison.^_^

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: My question was in response to darkstar's assertion that he could build a massive fleet of several thousand warships.

The Federation did this during the Dominion War.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: I would also question why you assert that 48,000 C is a "low" figure despite the phrase "maximum" warp being used.

I seem top recall the Enterprise-D a top of the line ship being able to go faster in The Chase.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: AI in Star Wars is very widespread, whether or not you consider it superior to ST ai, and you don't really need complex AI at all for the plan, just basic programming.

If it is so common then why could the Republic only spare one translator droid in 405 that just happened to be Padme's personal translator droid(C3P0), and failed to give him data on the language and customs of a Republic planet?

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Yes it does, as you use it just as much, if they fight at close ranges in times when being able to fight at longer ranges would have been an advantage. In the Dominion War, starships are shown consistently missing not-that-fast moving ST fighters doing very close range strafing runs, so how do you expect them to stop small craft accelerating outwards from random points from the planet's surface?

We know from Star Trek: First Contact that ships aren't moving at the speeds they appear to be, and are not where they appear to be, but we also see combat at billions of kilometers in Star Trek.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: That's bullshit. You know as well as I that hyperdrive allows for trans-galactic travel within hours.

Only on certain precharteed and well maintained hyper-lanes. This is why some back water stone age planet matters in Star Wars.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Yes it does, as you use it just as much, if they fight at close ranges in times when being able to fight at longer ranges would have been an advantage. In the Dominion War, starships are shown consistently missing not-that-fast moving ST fighters doing very close range strafing runs, so how do you expect them to stop small craft accelerating outwards from random points from the planet's surface?

Since this is the Federation they just shoot them all in seconds since the Star Wars fighter might as well not have armor, shields, weapons, and be standing still as far as shoot similarly sized targets tend to be in Star Trek.

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: Around 200,000 people a day visit the United States as tourists, about 0.06% of the population. Coruscant's percentage is definitely higher given that it's the center of the entire galaxy, outside sources are within the same government, many people would have jobs that require commuting to and from Coruscant and there are millions of planets of people to arrive from; Coruscant's population is under 0.01% of the galactic population, compared to the United States being around 5%.

So therefore, you can expect around 100 billion people commuting in and out every day at the very least (and this is still rather low, given Coruscant's extreme interdependence with the galaxy).

I wasn't literally saying that they'd all suicide rush the blockade, but that any blockade would be futile with just a few thousand ships.

You do realize that the Republic has a shit load of stone age cultures who only number in the thousands as members right?

StarWarsStarTrek wrote: I said activated on the fly, however "prepared" Hoth was, you can't honestly think that it was more prepared or packing better defensive systems than the galactic capital, especially if you find it so important that the Alliance would collapse without it.

Dac only has RADAR and SONAR for INTERPLANETARY SENSORS. Such sensor systems are easily neutralized by Federation craft.