Laser as anti-starship weapons in Star Trek

[Lucky]

WORF: We have an unidentified at twelve mark four. No response to our enquiries. 


PICARD: Extend hailing frequencies, all languages, all channels. 


WORF: Extending. 


DATA: Sensors show it to be an interplanetary vessel, sir. Class seven, crew complement twenty six. 


WORF: Still no response. Captain, they are now locking lasers on us. 


RIKER: Lasers? 


WORF: Yes, sir. 


PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that? 


RIKER; Regulations so call for a Yellow Alert. 


PICARD: A very old regulation. Well, make it so, Number One. And reduce speed. Drop main shields as well. 


RIKER: May I ask why, sir? 


PICARD: In case we decide to surrender to them, Number One.

PICARD: Mister Data, what's their offensive potential? 


DATA: Talarian warships are limited to neutral particle weapons, high energy X-ray lasers and merculite rockets. No match for the Enterprise, Captain. 


PICARD: The last thing I want is to be forced into destroying one of their ships.

PICARD: Tactical analysis, Mister Data. 


DATA: The pods are equipped with fusion-generated pulse lasers and minimal shielding. 


RIKER: Not much power there. 


PICARD: Forward shields to maximum. Lock phasers on the sentry pods. Prepare to return fire. 


WORF: Shields up. Phasers locked on targets. 


PICARD: Full impulse. Take us straight through them.

_-_-_-_-_-_

DATA: I am picking up no vessels, no additional sentry pods. 


RIKER: Optimal firing range in fifty five seconds. 


MACDUFF: Phaser banks ready. Loading torpedoes. 


PICARD: What are the defensive capabilities of the Central Command? 


DATA: Armaments consist of four laser cannons and thirty nine cobalt fusion warheads with magnetic propulsion. Defensive shield output is four point three kilojoules. 


RIKER: One photon torpedo ought to do it.
_-_-_-_-_-_

RIKER: How can our mortal enemy be over a hundred years behind us in weapons technology?

Lasers are rarely used by anyone in Star Trek as anti-starship weapons, and when they are, the group using lasers is considered to not be a threat. The question is, how much of a threat are lasers to a Federation Starship? Should we take Captain Picard's claim that a laser by virtue of being a laser can not penetrate the navigational deflector?

[Picard]

More like "they're terribly ineffective". Remember, it takes battle shields to stop phasers, while lasers are easily dissipated by navigational deflector. Still, one shouldn't fall into no-limit fallacy; throw an apple with enough force, and it will cause global extinction.

[mojo]

RIKER: Lasers? 

WORF: Yes, sir. 

CAPTAIN PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that? 


The question is, how much of a threat are lasers to a Federation Starship? Should we take CAPTAIN PICARD'S claim that a laser by virtue of being a laser can not penetrate the navigational deflector?

^^^CAPTAIN PICARD himself responds:
More like "they're terribly ineffective". Remember, it takes battle shields to stop phasers, while lasers are easily dissipated by navigational deflector. Still, one shouldn't fall into no-limit fallacy; throw an apple with enough force, and it will cause global extinction.

HAHA WTF
I GUESS THAT OFFICIALLY ENDS THAT DEBATE LOL

[Lucky]

More like "they're terribly ineffective". Remember, it takes battle shields to stop phasers, while lasers are easily dissipated by navigational deflector.

Lasers are not phasers. They are completely different things. What will defend against one thing may not work well to defend against something else. Heck, some of the stuff i've read says there is exotic forms of matter that have anti-gravity properties.

Gravity will always bend a beam of light, and light will never be able to overcome a black hole.

Still, one shouldn't fall into no-limit fallacy; throw an apple with enough force, and it will cause global extinction.

By your reasoning gravity is a no limits fallacy, but they exist. Star Fleet uses gravity to deflect asteroids, subatomic particles and such while moving at superluminal velocities.. Federation shields and navigational deflectors use gravity(among other things) to defend the ship.

[Praeothmin]

Gravity wells with insame amounts of gravity, not any gravity wells...
You know micro black holes are created in and around Earth's atmoshpere regularly, right?
Yet we fail to see them visually because their effects on anything, let alone light, are too weak...

[Khas]

Link please?

And if said black holes DID appear like that, it would only be a few microseconds (at most) before they evaporated and exploded.

[Praeothmin]

Link please?

And if said black holes DID appear like that, it would only be a few microseconds (at most) before they evaporated and exploded.

Link, you're welcome! :)

And another link...

Yes, they are theoretical, but these theories show us that the size of the black holes are directly related to the energy they produce, and thus of what they can affect...
So just because a Starfleet Deflector is Graviton based, and that some highly powerful gravity wells can affect Photons, doesn't mean all gravity wells will affect ALL Photons, even highly excited ones like in lasers...

[Lucky]

Link please?

And if said black holes DID appear like that, it would only be a few microseconds (at most) before they evaporated and exploded.

Who said that Star Fleet used black holes as defensive measures? Star Fleet's defenses tend to work by generating and manipulating gravitons. It seems just about every other group uses similar technologies as Star Fleet when it comes to shields and navigational deflectors.

Just because they did it once doesn't mean they do it all the time.

PARIS: Class H moon. Oxygen-argon atmosphere.


CHAKOTAY: It'll do. Take us out of warp and enter orbit.


PARIS: Aye, sir.


CHAKOTAY: Tuvok. Stand by to transport the Borg directly from the Cargo Bay. After they're on the surface, have Security run a sweep of 


KIM: I'm reading power fluctuations in the deflector array.


CHAKOTAY: Cause?


KIM: It looks like the Borg have accessed deflector control. They're trying to realign the emitters.


CHAKOTAY: Shut them out.


KIM: They've bypassed security protocols.


TORRES: We're emitting a resonant gravitation beam. It's creating another singularity.


CHAKOTAY: Reverse course.


PARIS: We're fighting intense gravimetric distortion. I can't break free!


CHAKOTAY: Bridge to Cargo Bay Two. Stop what you're doing, or I'll depressurise that deck and blow you out into space. This is your final warning. Do it! 


TUVOK: Decompression cycle complete.


KIM: I still don't have deflector control.


TUVOK: Commander, a single Borg has survived.


PARIS: We're being pulled in!


CHAKOTAY: Report.


TUVOK: We appear to have crossed an interdimensional rift.


PARIS: We've definitely left our galaxy. No stars, no planets.


CHAKOTAY: Let's see.


TORRES: I'm re-calibrating sensors. The entire region is filled with some kind of organic fluid. This isn't space, it's matter.


SEVEN [OC]: Commander Chakotay. We have entered the domain of Species 8472. Report to the Cargo Bay.


CHAKOTAY: Paris, re-pressurise Cargo Bay Two. Tuvok.

SHIELD STATUS: PRIMARY SYS ACTIVE
GRAVITON FIELD OUTPUT: 625 MCH
SHIELD MODULATION: 257.4 MHz

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cochrane_(unit)
If the Federation Science Council requires all operational equipment to be rated for 24 milli-cochranes or greater then 625 mega-cochrane must be an absurdly powerful gravitational field.

Then you also have a Klingon beater going to warp in Earth's atmosphere in Star Trek 4 for an example of fine gravity control.

[Lucky]

Gravity wells with insame amounts of gravity, not any gravity wells...
You know micro black holes are created in and around Earth's atmoshpere regularly, right?
Yet we fail to see them visually because their effects on anything, let alone light, are too weak...

Any gravity well will bend a beam of light, but the effects are not always measurable and or relevant.

No matter the size of the black hole light can not escape one.

Link, you're welcome! :)

And another link...

Yes, they are theoretical, but these theories show us that the size of the black holes are directly related to the energy they produce, and thus of what they can affect...
So just because a Starfleet Deflector is Graviton based, and that some highly powerful gravity wells can affect Photons, doesn't mean all gravity wells will affect ALL Photons, even highly excited ones like in lasers...

Thanks, I didn't know that before. It's rather frightening at times how hard Star Trek can be.

[Mr. Oragahn]

RIKER: Lasers? 

WORF: Yes, sir. 

CAPTAIN PICARD: Lasers can't even penetrate our navigation shields. Don't they know that? 


The question is, how much of a threat are lasers to a Federation Starship? Should we take CAPTAIN PICARD'S claim that a laser by virtue of being a laser can not penetrate the navigational deflector?

^^^CAPTAIN PICARD himself responds:
More like "they're terribly ineffective". Remember, it takes battle shields to stop phasers, while lasers are easily dissipated by navigational deflector. Still, one shouldn't fall into no-limit fallacy; throw an apple with enough force, and it will cause global extinction.

HAHA WTF
I GUESS THAT OFFICIALLY ENDS THAT DEBATE LOL

STFU, you're a starship captain too.

[Picard]

More like "they're terribly ineffective". Remember, it takes battle shields to stop phasers, while lasers are easily dissipated by navigational deflector.

Lasers are not phasers. They are completely different things. What will defend against one thing may not work well to defend against something else. Heck, some of the stuff i've read says there is exotic forms of matter that have anti-gravity properties.

Which is exactly what I said.

Gravity will always bend a beam of light, and light will never be able to overcome a black hole.

If what you said was true, Starfleet ships ought to be invisible the moment they turn on their shields, instead it is shields that are invisible. It could have to do with frequency, but I doubt shields are as strong as black hole.

Still, one shouldn't fall into no-limit fallacy; throw an apple with enough force, and it will cause global extinction.

By your reasoning gravity is a no limits fallacy, but they exist. Star Fleet uses gravity to deflect asteroids, subatomic particles and such while moving at superluminal velocities.. Federation shields and navigational deflectors use gravity(among other things) to defend the ship.

Gravity... among other things.

[Lucky]

If what you said was true, Starfleet ships ought to be invisible the moment they turn on their shields, instead it is shields that are invisible. It could have to do with frequency, but I doubt shields are as strong as black hole.

SPOCK: We've achieved a stable orbit out of Earth's atmosphere. Our deflectors are operative, enough to prevent our being picked up again as a UFO. And Mister Scott wishes to speak to you about the engines.

JANEWAY: Maintain a high orbit and modulate the shields to scatter their radar. We don't want to alarm the natives.
_-_-_-_-_-_

TORRES: Interferometric dispersion is online. That should take care of any radar detection. And I've configured the shields to disguise our visual profile. Unless somebody gets right on top of us, we should look like a small twentieth century aircraft.

In "Star Trek The Next Generation: First Contact" the Enterprise-D sits in orbit around a planet who's population is about to build its first warp drive. Riker gets hurt, taken to a hospital, and then is found to be an alien. This causes a panic about an alien invasion, and yet no one sees the Enterprise-D in orbit.

Then you have the insane number of times ships appear to be closer then dialog states. In the episode Star Trek The Next Generation: Suddenly Human the Enterprise-D and another ship are stated to be 500 kilometers and closing, but the visuals show at best single digit kilometers.

ELLICO: I began my career as a shuttle pilot, on the Jovian run. Jupiter to Saturn and back once a day, every day. 


LAFORGE: Is that right? I was on that run myself for a while. 


JELLICO: Then you must've done Titan's Turn. 


LAFORGE: Oh, yeah. You set a course directly for Titan, hold it until you're just brushing the atmosphere, throw the helm hard over and whip around the moon at point seven c. 


JELLICO: And pray like hell nobody saw you. 


LAFORGE: You know, this trip into the nebula's going to need someone who can do Titan's Turn in their sleep. These mines need to be laid within two kilometres of the Cardassian ships. But the particle flux from the nebula will blind all the sensors except for this proximity detector. You're going to need one heck of a pilot to pull that off.

In Star Trek 4 the Voyage Home after grabbing the whales Kirk orders warp in Earth's lower atmosphere without so much as disturbing a cloud.

In Star Trek 2009 kirk has the ship come out of warp in Titan's atmosphere with no visible effects.

The stupidly fine control over gravity we see in Star Trek makes it so we should see pretty what ever they want us to see, and they often show things in an inaccurate manner because the viewer would see nothing if they did it right. Star Trek has faster then light weapons remember.

_-_-_-_-_-_
Frequency measured in Hz simply means something happens X number of times a second.

Gravity... among other things.

Well, it is a guess on my part that Star Trek shields are made up of more then just gravity. The display only mentions gravity.
http://movies.trekcore.com/gallery/albu ... en0613.jpg

[theta_pinch]

Gravity wells with insame amounts of gravity, not any gravity wells...
You know micro black holes are created in and around Earth's atmoshpere regularly, right?
Yet we fail to see them visually because their effects on anything, let alone light, are too weak...

Actually light will always be bent by gravity no matter how energetic. That would also explain captain picards comment since in star trek shields are a distortion of space. Phasers on the otherhand being particles with mass would be able to penetrate shields with enough power.

[359]

Actually light will always be bent by gravity no matter how energetic. That would also explain captain picards comment since in star trek shields are a distortion of space. Phasers on the otherhand being particles with mass would be able to penetrate shields with enough power.

And the amount light is bent is proportional to how strong the field is. Weak gravity, negligible bending.

[theta_pinch]

Actually light will always be bent by gravity no matter how energetic. That would also explain captain picards comment since in star trek shields are a distortion of space. Phasers on the otherhand being particles with mass would be able to penetrate shields with enough power.

And the amount light is bent is proportional to how strong the field is. Weak gravity, negligible bending.

You're right about that but since it's known that the navigational deflector warps space it must be sufficient to deflect grains of dust moving at relativistic speeds and therefore be sufficient to bend laser beams.