Starfleet Jedi

Okay, granted that the J.J. Abrams reboot takes place in an altered timeline and continuity, it still is an interesting look at what the Federation and similarly advanced Trek powers are capable of under the right circumstances, and some of the improved abilities in the Alt Timeline versus the abilities demonstrated in the Prime one as well as a few notable weaknesses.

Some of the capabilities I observed in this latest movie are:

- The big ship construction continues! The U.S.S. Vengeance is easily twice the length of the 762 m Alt-E, putting this ship in the same size category as the Battlestar Galactica or Pegasus from the reimagined series, or an Imperial-class Star Destroyer from Star Wars, and is far and away the largest Federation starship ever seen to date, though space stations, like the Space dock from the Prime Timeline and the very large similarly purposed station in this continuity, are much, much larger, this is still proof that when the Federation wants to, it can and will build lots of very large ships.

- Separate, but related to the first, Vengeance was built in less than a year's time as a response to the destruction of Vulcan and after Khan's discovery and being coerced to design new weapons, and was built apparently in total secrecy, which matched up well with the Prime Timeline of 20 Romulan D'deridex-class and Cardassioan Keldon-class ships being built in secrecy by their respective secret police organizations. In this case, Section 31 is responsible for Vengeance's construction in a similar manner.

- Phasers and other weapons. Hand phasers seem strangely weak, but capable of rapid fire shots. Bolts only, and no continuous beams, like those in the Prime Timeline. This is especially odd given the observed capabilities of the progenitor phase pistols from over a century prior, and everything is the same timeline-wise until the Narada incursion, so why the switch? Only the BFG that Khan was wielding against the Klingons showed anything like the abilities phaser pistols in the Prime Timeline demonstrated routinely, including a half-vaporization of a Klingon warrior. The implication of the ability of Khan's weapon to shoot down a Klingon D-4 indicates and it's apparent weight and size indicate it is a heavy gun, meant to be a portable emplacement, or ship mounted, not used as a hand-held gun. But given Khan's strength, that's not surprising he'd use it the way he did.

Starship weapons fare infinitely better here, at least where the Vengeance's (the Big V from here on out for ease of reference) weapons are concerned since we don't get to see Alt-E return fire. The the Big V's weapons easily vaporize huge sections of Alt E's hull in the first attack at warp, and continue to do massive damage, even through her shields later on. Given how the Alt E's hull withstood the temperature of reentry heating at an insanely high speed, it really ups the firepower quotient considerably.

- Starship hull strength. Big, big plus for Trek here with the Alt E and the Big V surviving atmospheric entry at speeds that must be approaching 386,160 km per hour (assuming that it took an hour to board the Big V and commandeer the ship, all the other events such as the firing on Alt E by Marcus and later by Khan on the Big V). The Big V crash into San Francisco Bay and subsequent slide out through what must have been dozens of skyscrapers and it still survived mostly intact is nothing short of incredible. When her stardrive section's keel slams into Alcatraz Island at hundreds of meters a second, it does not collapse the way the Invisible Hand's did in RoTS. In fact, it doesn't collapse at all, which is impressive given the speed it strikes at and that island is a rather nasty bunch of hard rock. This echoes the scene in ST:Generations where the E-D's saucer section's leading edge slams effortlessly through a mountain peak with no signs of deformation or even any of the leading edge windows being shattered.

- Planetary defense. A big continuity snarl occurs here where Starfleet shows no response to the fighting of two Federation starships so close by to Earth. This after a big deal was made in the 2009 movie with Nero having to torture Pike to get the access codes so the Narada wouldn't fall under attack or deal with other issues. And we know that there is at least one very large space station with several ships docked to it. Arguably, Admiral Marcus could have ordered Starfleet to stay away on the pretext he was dealing with a terrorist-hijacked Alt E, but once both ships started to fall to Earth, why not open fire on them or put up shields to prevent catastrophic damage?

- Propulsion. Star Trek wins big here again with warp speed being insanely fast, perhaps hundreds of thousands to millions of c range with the Alt E and Big V demonstrating the ability to get back to Earth across at least dozens of light years from the edge of Klingon space in well under an hour's time based on the fact that Carol Marcus ran most of the way from sickbay to the bridge. Ten to twenty minutes tops. Impulse speeds and such aren't given a chance to be demonstrated much, but the liftoff of the Alt E from under the ocean on Nibiru, and later quite impressively halting and raising the Alt E from her death plunge. That's a.... lot... of KE that has to be killed, and very fast, too to do that.

- I'm not sure what purpose the Klingon D-4s serve. Whatever they are, they are not very big as evidenced by the repelling Klingon warriors coming out from under one of them, maybe 20-30 meters tops. And while they did demonstrate reasonable maneuverability, they had lousy shielding and armor. It is possible that these craft are just small short-range patrol ships and may only have very limited space-faring capability.

- Loss of gravity control on the Alt E. A very rare thing on a Trek starship, but at least the command crew had seat belts this time around.

- As noted in the critique thread, the spaceflight model lineup includes a number of big continuity nods to Trek with the XCV Enterprise and NX-01 making cameo appearances there, along with the NX precursor the NX-Alpha/Beta test ships, thus cementing their canon status in the Prime Timeline as well as this one.

That's about all I can think of right now off the top of my head. Any further thoughts, or if I missed something big, feel free to chime in.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote: - Phasers and other weapons. Hand phasers seem strangely weak, but capable of rapid fire shots. Bolts only, and no continuous beams, like those in the Prime Timeline. This is especially odd given the observed capabilities of the progenitor phase pistols from over a century prior, and everything is the same timeline-wise until the Narada incursion, so why the switch? Only the BFG that Khan was wielding against the Klingons showed anything like the abilities phaser pistols in the Prime Timeline demonstrated routinely, including a half-vaporization of a Klingon warrior. The implication of the ability of Khan's weapon to shoot down a Klingon D-4 indicates and it's apparent weight and size indicate it is a heavy gun, meant to be a portable emplacement, or ship mounted, not used as a hand-held gun. But given Khan's strength, that's not surprising he'd use it the way he did.

You need to keep in mind that the prime timeline and the new timeline are different timelines.

The movies take place before TOS.

One of the old complaints about phasers was the large number of settings. NuTrek phaser pistols only have a stun and kill setting.

I'm not sure about the complaint that phasers having too many settings. When has anyone anywhere ever said that? The closest I can think of was Ron Moore stating in an interview many years ago that Trek tech is often too powerful, which ruins story drama, and that was why when they write episodes, the phasers, which should be capable of causing heavy artillery-level explosions and such, and vaporizing away cover while being set on a widespead beam, are only shown making small burn marks and such.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote: This is especially odd given the observed capabilities of the progenitor phase pistols from over a century prior, and everything is the same timeline-wise until the Narada incursion, so why the switch?

Sorry to interject, being someone who hasn't seen the movie anyway, but I just wanted to note that I twitch like crazy when I see that idea.

Because time travel incidents occurred after 2233 and the participants went back to times prior to 2233, an unresolved 2233 incursion will have repercussions throughout the timeline, possibly as far back as the Big Bang (Quinn on Voyager) and the formation of life on Earth (All Good Things), but definitely including the numerous 20th Century incursions.

Of course, since I find the thesis that Nimoy played the same Spock character from TOS and TNG quite unconvincing, all of these events including the Narada herself are from alternate timelines anyway, and hence dismissable as far as I am concerned.

To bring it back to your point about phasers, there's no real timeline-related reason why JJ-Trek characters couldn't be using Starfleet-ized Ferengi energy whips, or devices that operate on similar principle.

End of rant. Sorry for the interruption.

Unfortunately, all humor aside, what argues against that is that the models of the, NX-01, NX-Alpha/Beta, XCV-330, and Zephram Cochrane's Phoenix are virtually identical to their Prime Timeline counterparts. If there had been that major a shift before the Narada incursion of 2233, I would have expected to see much more drastic changes. The only ones apparently happening post-incursion with the significant starship construction and weapons paradigm shift.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote: I'm not sure about the complaint that phasers having too many settings. When has anyone anywhere ever said that? The closest I can think of was Ron Moore stating in an interview many years ago that Trek tech is often too powerful, which ruins story drama, and that was why when they write episodes, the phasers, which should be capable of causing heavy artillery-level explosions and such, and vaporizing away cover while being set on a widespead beam, are only shown making small burn marks and such.
-Mike

I was speaking from an out of universe perspective, but...

Return To Grace wrote: KIRA: This is a standard issue, Cardassian phase-disruptor rifle. It has a four point seven megajoule power capacity, three millisecond recharge two beam settings. 


ZIYAL: How do you know so much about Cardassian weapons? 


KIRA: We captured a lot of them during the occupation. It's a good weapon, solid, simple. You can drag it through the mud and it'll still fire. Now this. (Federation phaser rifle.) This is an entirely different animal. Federation standard issue. It's a little less powerful, but it's got a more options. Sixteen beam settings. Fully autonomous recharge, multiple target acquisition, gyro stabilised, the works. It's a little more complicated, so it's not as good a field weapon. Too many things can go wrong with it. 


ZIYAL: I can see why my father likes having you around. 


KIRA: I think you should stick with the Cardassian rifle. It's smaller, easier to use, and if we get boarded I don't want you to have to think too much about the weapon you're using.

Kira certainly thinks the Cardassian phase-disruptor is the better weapon when compared to the Federation phaser rifle do to being simpler, and easier to maintain.

That said, phaser pistols have always been more a sort of pocket knife/survival tool as apposed to a pure weapon like a phaser rifle, and therefor should have more then two settings.

Khan about strong as Spock so much idea the hand weapon not nomral used anti vechicle hand weapon . First example we have for future Star Terk verse Star War debate were UFP armed anti vehicle. If could used take out AT-AT interesting know right just plan guess work. Since Klingon portal ship might well about tough AT- AT. After all Klingon portal ship like that more equipment deal less powers like trespasser space or piritias.

As for Earth defense systems. We know might need time power them up first place. Fact they need few minutes they had few seconds might not been enough time. This also explain why Breen attack and drove off but still able carry long amount damage. Simple put defense need time it start up. As for shield also might need time to raise well even just need minute two starship crashing in seconds. It not like had lot time again. I mind remind in TOS shields few seconds to raise. It is possible Earth Defense took few minutes operation in TOS and maybe far weapon go even TNG. As for Star Trek first Contact it possible risk hitting missing Borg Spear and instead want make know USS Enterprise E up task. Point is that Earth had surface defense in both Prime Universe and the know Star Trek timeline.

Cardassson weapons no cannon evidence UFP not have conflict Cardassion union in the TOS. Just did hear them does the UFP did have them. Also possible future Spock slip his lips.

Kirk was able to call Scotty's cell phone when light-years away.

Found this video of the Vengeance's attack on Alt-prise on YouTube. The falling out of lunar orbit perplexed people, but this clip at 1:28 to 1:33 has Kirk ordering (presumably Sulu) "Evasive maneuvers! Get us to Earth right now!"

This comes only seconds after the ship has fallen out of warp, the ship's position, and the damage reports are given. This means that, if Sulu had time to comply with the orders, the Alt-E was already moving towards Earth, and perhaps had enough time to accelerate when the Big V dropped from warp and continued the attack on her. Simply speaking, the Alt-E fell towards Earth because she'd been heading there under her own propulsion and the Big V's attacks under Marcus and later Khan knocked out her drive systems so that she couldn't avoid the planet or go into orbit.
-Mike

Lucky wrote:Kirk was able to call Scotty's cell phone when light-years away.

Ah yes, real time communications from the Klingon-Federation Neutral Zone to Earth and vice versa.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote:Found this video of the Vengeance's attack on Alt-prise on YouTube. The falling out of lunar orbit perplexed people, but this clip at 1:28 to 1:33 has Kirk ordering (presumably Sulu) "Evasive maneuvers! Get us to Earth right now!"

This comes only seconds after the ship has fallen out of warp, the ship's position, and the damage reports are given. This means that, if Sulu had time to comply with the orders, the Alt-E was already moving towards Earth, and perhaps had enough time to accelerate when the Big V dropped from warp and continued the attack on her. Simply speaking, the Alt-E fell towards Earth because she'd been heading there under her own propulsion and the Big V's attacks under Marcus and later Khan knocked out her drive systems so that she couldn't avoid the planet or go into orbit.
-Mike

Unfortunately, near the end of the clip, we see that both the Vengance and the Enterprise are sitting still after Vengance ceases fire.

Yes, that appears that way initially, but do keep in mind that in later scenes, the Alt-E and the Big V are shown together, and the Earth's Moon is not shown in any view when it should be very prominent. We might have to wait until the DVD is out, but the that was a big thing I noticed, especially in the IMAX showing. So how and when did the two ships move? The answer is that they were both in motion, the Big V slowing down to sublight and matching velocity with the crippled Alt-E, and like with any real life space ship rendezvous, it looks as though the two ships are stationary, but are in fact moving at enormous speeds, just not at all relative to each other. Thus over time the Moon seems to disappear and when the Alt-E loses power, we see the Earth looming very large all of a sudden as it "falls" towards it.
-Mike

Found this on Trek Collective showing the Mattel model of the Big V, which if accurate, gives a good idea of the ship's proportions and details, including that weird cutout in the middle of the saucer section.
-Mike

Another video on YouTube showing the reentry of the Alt-prise, including the "death dive" through the clouds and you can see the ship is amazingly clean all through out the whole thing with the only burning damage limited to the areas that were gouged out by the Big V's phasers and torpedoes.
-Mike

Mike DiCenso wrote: - Propulsion. Star Trek wins big here again with warp speed being insanely fast, perhaps hundreds of thousands to millions of c range with the Alt E and Big V demonstrating the ability to get back to Earth across at least dozens of light years from the edge of Klingon space in well under an hour's time based on the fact that Carol Marcus ran most of the way from sickbay to the bridge. Ten to twenty minutes tops. Impulse speeds and such aren't given a chance to be demonstrated much, but the liftoff of the Alt E from under the ocean on Nibiru, and later quite impressively halting and raising the Alt E from her death plunge. That's a.... lot... of KE that has to be killed, and very fast, too to do that.

In nuTrek, elevator propulsion is also impressive.

I also wouldn't pay too much attention to speeds and distance considering how the 2009 movie seems to have such issues already.