Starfleet Jedi

I've seen Star wars fans argue that a single Star Destroyer could take on the borg, the klingons, the romulans, the federation, and still have power left over to beat God in a arm wrestling match. I've also seen Star trek fans argue that the enterprise could take down the imperial fleet, and fire a photon torpedo down the Death Stars exhaust port and be home in time for another boring 50's holodeck episode. But does ANYONE deny the idea that a direct hit from the Death Star's Laser would Vaporize the Enterprise?

leon_caboose wrote:
I've seen Star wars fans argue that a single Star Destroyer could take on the borg, the klingons, the romulans, the federation, and still have power left over to beat God in a arm wrestling match. I've also seen Star trek fans argue that the enterprise could take down the imperial fleet, and fire a photon torpedo down the Death Stars exhaust port and be home in time for another boring 50's holodeck episode. But does ANYONE deny the idea that a direct hit from the Death Star's Laser would Vaporize the Enterprise?

1) True Star Wars fans would never make a claim like that. A true Star Wars fan is far too noble to lie like that. You are confusing evil Trekies pretending to be Star Wars fans with Star Wars fans.

2) If you want to argue that the Death Star's superlaser works through simple energy transfer then an outdated Constitution Class can laugh off a shot after shot because the Superlaser would be nothing more then a weapon designed to harass ships in orbit by Star Trek standards, and a badly damaged Voyager taking about 1 eighth of a planet popping blast.

TOS: A Taste of Armageddon
DEPAUL: Screens firm, sir. Extremely powerful sonic vibrations. Decibels eighteen to the twelfth power. If those screens weren't up, we'd be totally disrupted by now.

3) if you think the Death Star's superlaser is something more exotic then it might be able to one shot a Federation starship.

4) A Galaxy Class can make a tunnel with a depth of over a thousand kilometers in 20 seconds with its phasers. A torpedo do the exhaust port is the least of the Death Star's worries. One Gravimetric torpedo to the Death Star's surface should do it.

leon_caboose wrote:I've seen Star wars fans argue that a single Star Destroyer could take on the borg, the klingons, the romulans, the federation, and still have power left over to beat God in a arm wrestling match. I've also seen Star trek fans argue that the enterprise could take down the imperial fleet, and fire a photon torpedo down the Death Stars exhaust port and be home in time for another boring 50's holodeck episode. But does ANYONE deny the idea that a direct hit from the Death Star's Laser would Vaporize the Enterprise?

I wouldn't. But we also have no idea exactly how energetic the Superlaser is. But whatever it is, if I had to guess I would say yes, it could destroy a Federation starship in one hit.

Lucky wrote:2) If you want to argue that the Death Star's superlaser works through simple energy transfer then an outdated Constitution Class can laugh off a shot after shot because the Superlaser would be nothing more then a weapon designed to harass ships in orbit by Star Trek standards, and a badly damaged Voyager taking about 1 eighth of a planet popping blast.

Even granting that 8472 shots are even on the planet popping scale, (which they don't seem to be, at least not through direct energy input) both that and the TOS: "Taste of Armageddon" incidents were quite on the extreme high end of things.



Also a question: How did anyone end up calculating the Taste of Armageddon energy levels? I haven't found a good way to do that yet.

Mostly through Decibel to Joule Conversions. The numbers are abso-fucking-lutely insane, though. At LEAST 18 orders of magnitude greater than the total mass-energy of the known universe.

359 wrote: Even granting that 8472 shots are even on the planet popping scale, (which they don't seem to be, at least not through direct energy input) both that and the TOS: "Taste of Armageddon" incidents were quite on the extreme high end of things.

1) I don't see why you would conclude 8472's weapons aren't blowing up planets through brute force? This is more a matter of a lack of information as the visual effects are seemingly in slow motion.

2) Doomsday Machine need to technobabble to disable the Enterprise with a planet shattering weapon. Taking planet shattering hits is not a one off in Star Trek.

TNG: Booby Trap shows blowing up a planet is not impressive.

TNG: 11001001 shows that if a Galaxy class blew-up in a system without ejecting its antimatter pods it would be a threat to the entire system.

Voyager: The Omega Directive shows a gravimetric warhead that is stated to be able to "blow up a small planet".

3) Then you have things like Voyager: Timeless where the ship seems to crash at near the speed of light. It looks slow, but they only started slowing down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdG_kxttT0M

The time stamps given are from the youtube video
Voyager: Timeless
PARIS: Captain, we're just a few parsecs from the Alpha quadrant. 


JANEWAY: Not exactly how I wanted to cross the finish line. 


TUVOK: Hull breach on decks five through ten. We're losing life support. If we don't land the ship we're risking structural collapse. 


PARIS: I'm reading a planet nine million kilometres ahead. It's class L.(0:23)


JANEWAY: Do it.(0:26) We're coming in too fast! Reverse thrusters.(0:34) All hands, brace for impact!(0:36)

Voyager hits a mountain top(0:39)

Voyager hits the ground and starts sliding(0:43)

Low end
43-23=20

9,000,000/20=4,500,000 kilometers a second with sub-light drives at the low end!?

High End
34-23=11

9,000,000/11=818,181,818 kilometers a second with Sub-light drives when hitting the atmosphere!?

I've really got to start doing these sorts of calculations before I get into conversations like this rather then during.

359 wrote: Also a question: How did anyone end up calculating the Taste of Armageddon energy levels? I haven't found a good way to do that yet.

Here is the calculation.
http://www.starfleetjedi.net/forum/view ... =12&t=2288

I've tried using online calculators, but they always came back with answers like infinity.

LOL even if the entire ship was made of christmas antimatter, blowing up 100% perfectly wouldn't threaten an entire stellar system.
It's more like it posed a danger to the system in a general sense, as much as a lose nutter with a mini-nuke case is a threat to a large metropolis although he can't destroy it all.
EDIT: hate tiredness typos

Mr. Oragahn wrote:LOL even if the entire ship was made of christmas antimatter, blowing up 100% perfectly wouldn't threaten an entire stellar system.
It's more like paused a danger to the system in a general sense, as much as a lose nutter with a mini-nuke case is a threat to a large metropolis although he can't destroy it all.

An ounce of anti-matter blew off half a planet's atmosphere...

Dilithium sitting in a planet's crust caused it to blow up...

Lucky wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:LOL even if the entire ship was made of christmas antimatter, blowing up 100% perfectly wouldn't threaten an entire stellar system.
It's more like paused a danger to the system in a general sense, as much as a lose nutter with a mini-nuke case is a threat to a large metropolis although he can't destroy it all.

An ounce of anti-matter blew off half a planet's atmosphere...

Dilithium sitting in a planet's crust caused it to blow up...

Looks like in Star Trek, E = mc^4. :-)

Lucky wrote:1) I don't see why you would conclude 8472's weapons aren't blowing up planets through brute force? This is more a matter of a lack of information as the visual effects are seemingly in slow motion.

For just about the same reasons I don't think the Deathstar goes around blowing up planets through brute force. And those reasons range from it's just plain silly to that looks nothing like an energy beam blowing up a planet, there is too much going 'boom' and not enough small holes being poked in the planet by tiny energy beams.

Lucky wrote:2) Doomsday Machine need to technobabble to disable the Enterprise with a planet shattering weapon. Taking planet shattering hits is not a one off in Star Trek.

Yep, it did.

Lucky wrote:TNG: Booby Trap shows blowing up a planet is not impressive.

Over an unknown period of time with an unknown number of ships. But for all intents and purposes totally true.

Lucky wrote:TNG: 11001001 shows that if a Galaxy class blew-up in a system without ejecting its antimatter pods it would be a threat to the entire system.

Again this is true, actually it is not said that it would be a threat to the entire system but possibly at least a nearby planet. And this is contradicted by ST: Generations as the saucer's inhabitants were not killed in the blast. But again that does not stop this event from existing.

Lucky wrote:3) Then you have things like Voyager: Timeless where the ship seems to crash at near the speed of light. It looks slow, but they only started slowing down

Calculating for a four minute change from the start of trouble to the time of Seven's death, Voyager took 172 seconds to reach the planet 9 billion km distant for an average velocity of 0.172c. Based on the displayed impact scene the ship was traveling at 508 m/s as she grazed the top of an ice hill resulting in an initial impact energy of about 16.0 kt assuming she lost half of her velocity with the initial hit, and 21.6 kt for the total change in KE.

This is all far more specific and quantifiable than Chakotay's comment about the impact.


Now I will admit that planet busting levels of energy are not unheard of in Star Trek, but they are quite outside the norm.

Lucky wrote:Here is the calculation.
viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2288

Thanks! I was having some issues hunting that down.

359 wrote: For just about the same reasons I don't think the Deathstar goes around blowing up planets through brute force. And those reasons range from it's just plain silly to that looks nothing like an energy beam blowing up a planet, there is too much going 'boom' and not enough small holes being poked in the planet by tiny energy beams.

Blowing up a planet is physically possible. Physicists have done the math. It is hover much more practical to use a thousand ships firing on the planet from different directions.

+++++

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V4LR6Ev27FQ
http://voy.trekcore.com/gallery/thumbna ... 56&page=13
From the looks of the clip I found and the stills, it appears that 8472 drills to the core of the planet, and then seems to heat it until it explodes.

+++++

Oddly, something like an Earth like planet exploding should appear to be happening in slow motion as I understand it do to scale.

+++++

I do agree that blowing up planets seems silly, but in the sense that you are wasting something that you could have likely put to better use.

359 wrote: Over an unknown period of time with an unknown number of ships. But for all intents and purposes totally true.

1000 NX-01 can blow up a planet in Archer's time.

20 Romulan and Cardassian ships to perform a controlled demolition in DS9/TNG/Voyager time.

359 wrote: Again this is true, actually it is not said that it would be a threat to the entire system but possibly at least a nearby planet. And this is contradicted by ST: Generations as the saucer's inhabitants were not killed in the blast. But again that does not stop this event from existing.

I don't recall Generations having the same problem as 11001001

TNG: 11001001
DATA: Engineering to Captain. (no reply) If the antimatter is released, the ship will be destroyed. 

LAFORGE: Nothing I do has any effect. I'm losing it. Data, I've rechecked every circuit. This is not a misread by the computer. 

DATA: Computer, situation analysis. 

COMPUTER: (male voice) Estimate release of antimatter in four minutes eighteen seconds. Seventeen seconds. Sixteen seconds. 

DATA: Engineering to Bridge.

359 wrote: Calculating for a four minute change from the start of trouble to the time of Seven's death, Voyager took 172 seconds to reach the planet 9 billion km distant for an average velocity of 0.172c. Based on the displayed impact scene the ship was traveling at 508 m/s as she grazed the top of an ice hill resulting in an initial impact energy of about 16.0 kt assuming she lost half of her velocity with the initial hit, and 21.6 kt for the total change in KE.

This is all far more specific and quantifiable than Chakotay's comment about the impact.

All that matters is the time from when the planet is spotted to when they crash which seems to be in about less then 60 seconds.

Keep in mind that it is implied at the end of the episode that the Voyagers that crashed still crashed, and that the data was sent from a parallel universe/timeline. I love how Jainway tells Kim not to think about the temporal paradoxes.

Picard wrote:

Lucky wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:LOL even if the entire ship was made of christmas antimatter, blowing up 100% perfectly wouldn't threaten an entire stellar system.
It's more like paused a danger to the system in a general sense, as much as a lose nutter with a mini-nuke case is a threat to a large metropolis although he can't destroy it all.

An ounce of anti-matter blew off half a planet's atmosphere...

Dilithium sitting in a planet's crust caused it to blow up...

Looks like in Star Trek, E = mc^4. :-)

And in star wars if hypermatter is considered canon.

Lucky wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:LOL even if the entire ship was made of christmas antimatter, blowing up 100% perfectly wouldn't threaten an entire stellar system.
It's more like paused a danger to the system in a general sense, as much as a lose nutter with a mini-nuke case is a threat to a large metropolis although he can't destroy it all.

An ounce of anti-matter blew off half a planet's atmosphere...

Dilithium sitting in a planet's crust caused it to blow up...

Two stoopids don't make one smart.

leon_caboose wrote:I've seen Star wars fans argue that a single Star Destroyer could take on the borg, the klingons, the romulans, the federation, and still have power left over to beat God in a arm wrestling match. I've also seen Star trek fans argue that the enterprise could take down the imperial fleet, and fire a photon torpedo down the Death Stars exhaust port and be home in time for another boring 50's holodeck episode. But does ANYONE deny the idea that a direct hit from the Death Star's Laser would Vaporize the Enterprise?

Don't listen to lucky, he's cray cray.

As for the Death Star...no, there's no way the Enterprise D could hope to survive the super laser. Even ignoring its technobabble function, the energy produced by a reactor that massive at one point on the ship's shields would slice through like a hot knife through butter.

But on the other hand, as long as the Enterprise D knew the pipe was there, they could program a photon torpedo to follow the wasted heat into the reactor.

359 wrote:This is all far more specific and quantifiable than Chakotay's comment about the impact.


Now I will admit that planet busting levels of energy are not unheard of in Star Trek, but they are quite outside the norm.

We might assume that the visuals are flawed, but full impulse could also mean that the ship was moving at its max acceleration, which would at most, be around 10 or so km/s. If we were to go that route. Again though, it could still result in some out-of-place calcs for ship armor, although perhaps the SIF might mitigate that a bit.

As for planet-busting level...yeah, no.

Sure, planet busting superweapons. That I'll get behind. But actual ship to ship weapons? Sorry, no way.

Mith wrote:But on the other hand, as long as the Enterprise D knew the pipe was there, they could program a photon torpedo to follow the wasted heat into the reactor.

Do we know that for sure?
Look, if the Rebels literally bothered attacking a sector of the battle station's surface despite the disadvantage regarding number of turrets, armour and even presence of fighters, in order to prepare a run through the whole trench that was equally murderous, all that in order to fire some torps in the most convoluted trajectory possible as close as possible to the exhaut pipe, there might be very solid reasons as to why they simply couldn't just dive straight towards the hole and spam it from above.

That's where it's interesting because your typical Trek torpedo is too fast, not maneuverable enough and too big to complete that kind of trajectory, and if there's a good reason for objects such as shielded torps not to be able to follow a simple route into the hole, then Trek shouldn't have it either.
Star Wars' photon torpedoess are shielded, very manoeuverable and considerably smaller. And despite all that, the pre-programming based on accurate plans, the in situ active sensor sweeps to obtain as much information as possible in real time, plus the close range launch of the torps, the operation was nearly impossible.
It actually took real plot hax (T3h Force) to get the pill down sunshine's hole.