Zombie Inflationism I: Death Star Arguments

[Mike DiCenso]

Has anyone calculated the energy needed to accelerate that big ball of doom though? (assuming the reactors provide the energy and not local fission/fusion thrusters or else)

Yes, it has been done, I think a few here on SFJN. But a lot of assumptions have to be made, like the size of Yavin Prime and the exact path the Death Star took while orbiting the gas giant, etc.

A couple years ago, during the "Brian Young's new website is up!" I worked out the photometrics to show that Yavin 4 was not subtending a small enough width of the screen in one screencap to place it far enough away for Yavin Prime to be a Jupiter-sized gas giant, but rather a Neptune or Uranus-sized one. And although that was applied to the speed of the X-wing and Y-wing fighters, it can most certainly applied to the Death Star and its trip around Yavin Prime, and remember it was expected to take the Death Star at least 30 minutes to travel at most one-half the circumference.

Given a 60,000 km diameter, 188,495 km will be the circumference and half that is 94,247.7 km. So now that we have a distance and a time we can get a velocity of 30 minutes x 60 seconds = 1,800 seconds which is then divided into 94,247.7 km = 52.36 km/sec.

So then we need to figure out how big is the first Death Star is and what kind of mass it might have. Since the ICS and the rest of the EU are gone, we're back to good old fashioned scaling from the movie, and I opt for a sensible scaling like
this one.

And so a Death Star 1 of 120 km is quite reasonable, and a volume of 9.047E14 m2. Also to be extra fair, instead of assuming the thing is mostly made of steel as the novelizations have suggested, why don't we assume that it is made of Trek materials and has Trek ship densities. Call it 453 trillion metric tons.

Thus the following:

mass (m) =453000000000000 ton metric =4.53E+17kilogram

velocity (v)= 52 kilometer/second =52000 meter/second

Solution:

kinetic energy (K) = 6.12456E+26 joules

That's the maximum output of the Death Star, if you go by that, which is well short of the minimum 1e32 joules needed to blow an Earth-sized apart.
-Mike

[2046]

Two things:

1. 453 trillion tonnes is not a Trek materials estimate . . . that's 500 kg/m^3. The Star Wars vessel numbers (low end) should all match that if you're going by the Volumetrics page info. The high end is 1000kg/m^3. Sorry if it's less than clear.

I figure the Death Stars are about as light and hollow as possible given their issues with weight on ships only a handful of kilometers in length, so the true value could be somewhat lower, perhaps.

2. Your velocity based on 60000km would have the DS1 literally dipped into Yavin's gases, would it not?

3. The thesis of the argument is that the kinetic energy value was provided by the Death Star itself, yes? A more interesting question for me is whether the partial orbit matches what would be expected of an *unpowered* Deathticle.

Edit: Third thing:

4. I can't count.

[Mike DiCenso]

Two things:

1. 453 trillion tonnes is not a Trek materials estimate . . . that's 500 kg/m^3. The Star Wars vessel numbers (low end) should all match that if you're going by the Volumetrics page info. The high end is 1000kg/m^3. Sorry if it's less than clear.

I figure the Death Stars are about as light and hollow as possible given their issues with weight on ships only a handful of kilometers in length, so the true value could be somewhat lower, perhaps.

No, its not made very clear there, Robert. But that said, the numbers are pretty large there, and given when we see the DS1 under construction in RoTS, it looks pretty hollow, so no matter what, that number is pretty generous. And it fits a theme we see constantly with the Death Stars' interior spaces; lots of big open chasms, thousands of interlocking tunnels that a 20 meter freighter can pass through, and large open reactor chambers, etc. These are not densely pack structures at all.

2. Your velocity based on 60000km would have the DS1 literally dipped into Yavin's gases, would it not?

True, but given my earlier analysis gave Yavin Prime a diameter of 53,000 km, that's probably still applicable. But still, to be fair we could go with 60,000 km as the diameter, then add another 1,000 to 3,000 km on top of that. I mean, look at the visuals, the Death Star is orbiting pretty tightly in to the gas giant, and we even see the Falcon pull in pretty tightly to it during her approach to the Rebel base earlier on.

3. The thesis of the argument is that the kinetic energy value was provided by the Death Star itself, yes? A more interesting question for me is whether the partial orbit matches what would be expected of an *unpowered* Deathticle.

Again, to be fair. Given the reference to being in "anti-gravity range" from a controller in the ANH novelization while the Death Star made its approach to Alderaan, I assume there is at least some repulsorlift capability for the battlestation, and the second Death Star could rotate, as per the RoTJ novelization. So maybe they can kind of sort of steer the thing around a bit as it drifts towards a target.

But if the thing has the ability to do major powered flight, then why bother orbiting Yavin Prime at all? Why not steer to where you have a clear line of sight from a much larger distance, and then shoot? Maybe the station has no ability to move itself too much, or they had to save the power to shoot the superlaser. So that would be a major limiter on the power generation of the Death Star right there.

Edit: Third thing:

4. I can't count.

Okay. Won't hold it against you. ;-)
-Mike

[2046]

Yes, DS2 could rotate ever so slowly, and I feel sure DS1 had some maneuvering capability at least around planets where the antigravs could be used, but my hypothesis would be that the delta-v is just tiny, like somewhere near modern levels.

Otherwise, even things like the trench run don't make sense. "... and there is a danger ... " "Oh, okay, hard to port, then" or "Oh, okay, well, accelerate to one-half speed". Either of those would've caused fighters to crash into the trench.

[Mr. Oragahn]

You can see the space station slowly spinning as it approaches Alderaan.
You could even make a calc out of it rather easily since we have visual yartsicks and we know time and size.
Now we don't know if it's an angular momentum that the station already had before jumping to hyperspace and thus kept while jumping out and coming close to Alderaan.

However, considering the excess of perpendicular artificial gravity the centrifugal force would create at the equator while the station would be rotating, which would mean an increase of power requirements to compensate for that, the engineers might have strongly suggested not to spin the station too often to stay within the fuel budgetary constraints.

We also see Alderaan moving sideways on the main screen. Well, oddly enough, this happens the second time we're in the main room with Tarkin, as the DS is about to have the planet in its iron sight.
However, earlier on as it was approaching the planet, the station was clearly rotating, the SL dish pointing way outwards (to the left of the screen, even towards the audience in fact) but the main screen had the targeted planet already locked at the center of the screen. Most likely obtained from different cameras and computer calculating one single picture to always see the planet the same way, despite the station rotating.
Most likely, Tarkin asked for this function to be shut down, and counted on the dramatic effect of the planet coming into view to impress the princess.

[2046]

Now we don't know if it's an angular momentum that the station already had before jumping to hyperspace and thus kept while jumping out and coming close to Alderaan.

Yes, more like this. What velocity does the Death Star have when emerging from hyperspace? Was one of the tasks to make it ready to be declared complete accelerating it up to a certain speed over the course of a long period so it had some speed behind it? Maybe even imparting some spin to it? Or spinning up some huge flywheels?

I'm perfectly content to be wrong on this given that I haven't run any of the numbers, but it makes the most sense to me that the Death Star is, by comparison to a normal ship, almost as good as unpowered. The International Space Station, for example, has thrusters to boost her orbit and otherwise move about . . . I feel certain the Death Star is more capable even than that, but I certainly don't get the sense at the moment that she can effortlessly make her way to the nearest Monolith Burger the next planet over at a moment's whim, or be used for an in-system pizza delivery vehicle, or that she could chase down even the slowest flotsam without use of orbital mechanics.

However, earlier on as it was approaching the planet, the station was clearly rotating, the SL dish pointing way outwards (to the left of the screen, even towards the audience in fact)

Duck!

[Mr. Oragahn]

There is, in fact, no need to speculate. It's simpler. Anyone claiming that it can be driven like a space ship... would have to provide evidence of this. The space battle station has been doing nothing more than drift, slowly spin (and kill the angular momentum as to have a straight shot at the target) and orbit a gas giant.
When the station was found in the vicinity of Alderaan later on, it's not even know if its position was due, interestingly enough, to the recoil after firing the superlaser. Indeed, what better way to get away from a target that blows up than precisely using a significant amount of the recoil to let the station be pushed backwards? It's not going to hit anything after all. This has the double advantage of reducing the relative momentum and kinetic energy of debris hurtled towards the station.

PS: you're drunk or jaded.

[2046]

There is, in fact, no need to speculate. It's simpler. Anyone claiming that it can be driven like a space ship... would have to provide evidence of this.

Fair enough, in a debate context . . . but I prefer to work things out in advance.

For example, the Star Wars ship density issue. For ages now it has been an unknown. Oh, I had my guess, but the inflationists had theirs. They had no proof to offer, but they just kept insisting it was their way instead of my educated guess.

Trying to keep with fluff like the inflated rendition of the EU's BDZ, they took these inflated values they'd made up, along with wildly inflationist interpretations of canon ship-raising, and claimed utterly ludicrous power generation figures and weapon yields based thereon.

Well, now we have some firm figures with which to disprove their claims.

So, merely demanding evidence hasn't been satisfactory, to date, because the inflationists generally aren't in the business of evidence.

The space battle station has been doing nothing more than drift, slowly spin (and kill the angular momentum as to have a straight shot at the target)

Spin slow enough and you don't need to stop. Besides, the DS2 could fire off-axis. I see no reason to assume the DS1 couldn't.

When the station was found in the vicinity of Alderaan later on, it's not even know if its position was due, interestingly enough, to the recoil after firing the superlaser. Indeed, what better way to get away from a target that blows up than precisely using a significant amount of the recoil to let the station be pushed backwards?

That's only necessary if you buy into the massive recoil argument, which I don't.

PS: you're drunk or jaded.

This again? Look, I'm sorry I won't sleep with you. There's no reason to get mad about it.

[Mike DiCenso]

When the station was found in the vicinity of Alderaan later on, it's not even know if its position was due, interestingly enough, to the recoil after firing the superlaser. Indeed, what better way to get away from a target that blows up than precisely using a significant amount of the recoil to let the station be pushed backwards?

That's only necessary if you buy into the massive recoil argument, which I don't.

Well, certainly we know that when the Falcon shows up at where Alderaan was supposed to be, the Death Star was not readily visible until after almost a minute and a half of chasing down the lone scout TIE fighter, and we know from the ANH novelization is that the point where the Falcon exited from hyperspace was supposed to be about one planetary diameter out from Alderaan.

So that leaves us with only a few possibilities:

1.) The Death Star's recoil pushed it away from the exploding planet. Other than its unusual distance from where the former planet was, I see no evidence of that during the firing of the superlaser. That is we do not see it physically move backwards during the firing.

2.) The blast energies intercepted by the Death Star pushed it away. This means the Death Star is very tough to survive that, but it also means the man made planetoid does not have the

3.) The Death Star sort of drifted on its own momentum of whatever it had coming out of hyperspace. After all, the Falcon according to the ANH novelization had been several days in transit, and that's more than enough time for it to have reached where it was on its own momentum, and that implies some weirdness about the Alderaan explosion on top of everything else.

4.) The Death Star did a mini hyperspace jump to avoid the worst of the Alderaan explosion. Again, no evidence other than the odd distance.

5.) The initial visuals are misleading and the Death Star was just a lot further away than it looked.

The first two are what inflationists will cling to probably, and the last two are not really supported by visuals, nor dialog.
-Mike

[Mr. Oragahn]

1.) The Death Star's recoil pushed it away from the exploding planet. Other than its unusual distance from where the former planet was, I see no evidence of that during the firing of the superlaser. That is we do not see it physically move backwards during the firing.

Rethink that. The only thing we see is the dish and that's all. The camera could easily be anchored to the Death Star's coordinates, it needn't be fixed to some arbitrary coordinates in space. Meaning that if the DS moved, you wouldn't see it unless something very close passed by. Besides, we only see the dish during the first fractions of the shot, while a minor acceleration would only reveal an increase of speed after a certain duration.
I'm not defending this teeth and nails, just exploring the idea.

2.) The blast energies intercepted by the Death Star pushed it away. This means the Death Star is very tough to survive that, but it also means the man made planetoid does not have the

Possible as well. Basically, its huge force field would push against the debris or, eventually, act as a wall and the momentum of the debris would push the station backwards.

3.) The Death Star sort of drifted on its own momentum of whatever it had coming out of hyperspace. After all, the Falcon according to the ANH novelization had been several days in transit, and that's more than enough time for it to have reached where it was on its own momentum, and that implies some weirdness about the Alderaan explosion on top of everything else.

Trouble is, we see it getting closer to Alderaan. However, the station fired at the planet from a far distance. More than a planetary diameter, for sure.
I think the distance might even be given in the novelization.

4.) The Death Star did a mini hyperspace jump to avoid the worst of the Alderaan explosion. Again, no evidence other than the odd distance.

That would be massively stupid since it would mean the engineers wouldn't have the intelligence to put the station outside of the sort of blast radius of its own weapon.
Plus why not use it at Yavin then to correct the position and be done with the rebellion already?

5.) The initial visuals are misleading and the Death Star was just a lot further away than it looked.

No need to go there imho.

Let's also consider that debris slowed down on screen and part of the planet collapsed. Possible that this odd phenomenon kept most of the debris within a distance from Alderaan's former center of gravity.