Starfleet Jedi

So. Who do you think the supreme master of PT-OT era lightsaber combat is, and why?

I've listed the probable contenders. Here's a quick sales pitch for each:

Darth Vader, aka Anakin Skywalker, has killed more Jedi than anyone else, and more crucially most of the other contenders. He killed Count Dooku in ROTS (with aid from Obi-Wan), Emperor Palpatine in ROTJ (with aid from Luke), Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH (albeit apparently willing), and can be held responsible for Mace Windu's death in ROTS (in conjunction with Palpatine. He also defeated Luke Skywalker in TESB, and is probably the strongest - physically or telekinetically - of all the contenders.

Count Dooku, aka Darth Tyrannus, is widely held to be a dueling master, a master fencer of Makashi, a style dedicated to lightsaber-on-lightsaber combat. He has the most confirmed solo defeats of other contestants; he defeated both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi on Geonosis, and held off Yoda. In a second encounter against the two of them, he held off fairly well, narrowly losing his head to an Anakin growing strong in the dark side after taking Obi-Wan out of the action; it is also said that he is only one of two people to ever defeat Windu in a duel.

Obi Wan Kenobi defeated Anakin Skywalker at his deadliest in Revenge of the Sith, and the double-blade wielding Darth Maul in TPM, as well as General Grievous. He has also deflected more blaster bolts with a lightsaber than anyone else onscreen, so far as I can tell. He lost to Dooku twice, and was slain by Vader - but reportedly meant to let Vader strike him down.

Luke Skywalker had Vader at his mercy in Return of the Jedi, and ultimately won out overall, founding a new Jedi Order. Reputedly strong with the Force, he has successfully foiled Vader and the Emperor numerous times.

Yoda is clearly the most acrobatic contestant. With roughly nine hundred years of experience wielding lightsabers, he seems to have seen almost everything, driving away Dooku at Geonosis and fighting Palpatine to a draw in the Senate chamber. He is reportedly one of only two opponents to ever best Windu in a duel.

Palpatine is the only Sith Master on this list. Faced with arrest by several Jedi, he swiftly slew several, proceeding to a duel against Mace Windu. Mace Windu defeated Palpatine, but lost the fight when Anakin severed his hand. Palpatine went on to fight Yoda to a draw, and later was defeated - albeit without his lightsaber - in ROTJ by Vader, who picked him up and threw him down a shaft.

Mace Windu invented his own lightsaber form, Vaapaad, and reputedly has only been ever defeated in duel by two Jedi: Yoda and Count Dooku. He is the only person observed to defeat Palpatine in a lightsaber duel, and would have slain him had Anakin not intervened. His easy defeat of Palpatine contrasts sharply with Yoda's extended struggle to a draw.

Darth Maul won the first of a two round duel against both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn, slaying Qui-Gon; however, he was subsequently sliced in half by Obi-Wan. His double blade style is widely admired.

General Grievous, unique non-Force using quadruple-lightsaber fighter who collected the lightsabers of the Jedi he slew. (Killed by Obi-Wan.)

Jedi Master Spock wrote:So. Who do you think the supreme master of PT-OT era lightsaber combat is, and why?

I've listed the probable contenders. Here's a quick sales pitch for each:

Darth Vader, aka Anakin Skywalker, has killed more Jedi than anyone else, and more crucially most of the other contenders. He killed Count Dooku in ROTS (with aid from Obi-Wan), Emperor Palpatine in ROTJ (with aid from Luke), Obi-Wan Kenobi in ANH (albeit apparently willing), and can be held responsible for Mace Windu's death in ROTS (in conjunction with Palpatine. He also defeated Luke Skywalker in TESB, and is probably the strongest - physically or telekinetically - of all the contenders.

Count Dooku, aka Darth Tyrannus, is widely held to be a dueling master, a master fencer of Makashi, a style dedicated to lightsaber-on-lightsaber combat. He has the most confirmed solo defeats of other contestants; he defeated both Anakin Skywalker and Obi-Wan Kenobi on Geonosis, and held off Yoda. In a second encounter against the two of them, he held off fairly well, narrowly losing his head to an Anakin growing strong in the dark side after taking Obi-Wan out of the action; it is also said that he is only one of two people to ever defeat Windu in a duel.

Obi Wan Kenobi defeated Anakin Skywalker at his deadliest in Revenge of the Sith, and the double-blade wielding Darth Maul in TPM. He has also deflected more blaster bolts with a lightsaber than anyone else onscreen, so far as I can tell. He lost to Dooku twice, and was slain by Vader - but reportedly meant to let Vader strike him down.

Luke Skywalker had Vader at his mercy in Return of the Jedi, and ultimately won out overall, founding a new Jedi Order. Reputedly strong with the Force, he has successfully foiled Vader and the Emperor numerous times.

Yoda is clearly the most acrobatic contestant. With roughly nine hundred years of experience wielding lightsabers, he seems to have seen almost everything, driving away Dooku at Geonosis and fighting Palpatine to a draw in the Senate chamber. He is reportedly one of only two opponents to ever best Windu in a duel.

Palpatine is the only Sith Master on this list. Faced with arrest by several Jedi, he swiftly slew several, proceeding to a duel against Mace Windu. Mace Windu defeated Palpatine, but lost the fight when Anakin severed his hand. Palpatine went on to fight Yoda to a draw, and later was defeated - albeit without his lightsaber - in ROTJ by Vader, who picked him up and threw him down a shaft.

Mace Windu invented his own lightsaber form, Vaapaad, and reputedly has only been ever defeated in duel by two Jedi: Yoda and Count Dooku. He is the only person observed to defeat Palpatine in a lightsaber duel, and would have slain him had Anakin not intervened. His easy defeat of Palpatine contrasts sharply with Yoda's extended struggle to a draw.

Darth Maul won the first of a two round duel against both Obi-Wan Kenobi and Qui-Gon Jinn, slaying Qui-Gon; however, he was subsequently sliced in half by Obi-Wan. His double blade style is widely admired.

Darth Vader, pre suit, actually defeated Dooku rather well. Obi-Wan was joked out, and Dooku attempted to bait Anakin. However, Dooku somehow made a mistake, and Anakin really started to own him badly.
However, in the suit, Vader's been a shadow of what he could have been. Movie wise, his kills are cheap.

Dooku. That one's a tough guy. He can handle Obi-Wan and Anakin at the same time, defeat both, and give Yoda a run for his money, where even Yoda's flashy moves don't help.
In ROTS, he's defeated, but I can't really tell if Dooku really failed. Palpatine might have done something as well.

Kenobi was good. Very good. Okay, he had pretty much stupid flashy moves, so that's a flaw. He still got Grievous and his machined four weapons, and defeated Darth Vader pre-suit.
His victory over Maul was more fluke than talent. Maul goated and got killed. Realistically, Maul simply owned both of them.
Kenobi didn't defeat Jango.

Skywalker... no way. His sword fights are terrible. Only good against several armed men, but bad against a well trained Sith. Luke somehow defeated Vader due to some rage. Don't ask.
Obviously, Vader has no stamina, and Vader's style was to stand still, like in ANH, give a few strikes and hope to kill that way, like an old kendo master. Zero flashy moves, or he'd be extinguished.

Yoda... no. Powerful with the Force, mows down legions of soldiers, but failed against both Siths.

Sidious... got the upper hand since he managed to hit Yoda with a Force strike. But Yoda returned another one. Then the combat turned out to be nothing more than pointless lightsabre combat, and ended with pod slinging. Yoda tired out and fleed.
Sidious is not doubt extremely powerful with the Force in some domains, and his lightsabre skills are good, but not good enough.

Windu is strong. He defeated Sidious only by using his lightsabre techniques. Best monk warrior on the light side.

As for Maul, adding to what I said above, he was good, but unexperimented. His attempt at Force lighting turned out to be a sonicboom of some sort. He was fast and agile, and not stupid, but didn't believe in the power of the mind talk. :)
He would have been totally owned by Dooku.

So it ends as a match, as far as I'm concerned, between Dooku and Windu.

Since Dooku apparently managed to defeat Windu once... it makes the end decision even more difficult.

I would have gone with Dooku for sheer Sith coolness, but between him and Windu, Dooku used obvious Force powers much more than Windu.

In pure lightsabre skillz, it really goes to Windu.

Windu is the bad-arse motherfucker. This is the ultimate truth.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:Kenobi was good. Very good. Okay, he had pretty much stupid flashy moves, so that's a flaw. He still got Grievous and his machined four weapons, and defeated Darth Vader pre-suit.

Forgot about Grievous. That was a pretty impressive performance by Obi-Wan.

I've added Grievous to the poll in case anyone wants to vote for him.

BASIC MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!

I recall reading something somewhere that seemed to imply that if you took every other factor (force ability, strength, stamina, etc) out of the equation, and focused on swordsmanship alone, Obi-wan Kenobi was the greatest swordsman the Jedi order ever produced. I can't remember where...

Narsil wrote:BASIC MOTHERFUCKER, DO YOU SPEAK IT?!

LOLOL

I'm all for Kenobi, myself.

Socar wrote:I recall reading something somewhere that seemed to imply that if you took every other factor (force ability, strength, stamina, etc) out of the equation, and focused on swordsmanship alone, Obi-wan Kenobi was the greatest swordsman the Jedi order ever produced. I can't remember where...

Obi-Wan did deflect Dooku's lightning effortlessly, but I'm not sure his lightning was as powerful as Sidious', and Obi-Wan still got owned in the end, and he has just too much flashy moves imho.

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Socar wrote:I recall reading something somewhere that seemed to imply that if you took every other factor (force ability, strength, stamina, etc) out of the equation, and focused on swordsmanship alone, Obi-wan Kenobi was the greatest swordsman the Jedi order ever produced. I can't remember where...

Obi-Wan did deflect Dooku's lightning effortlessly, but I'm not sure his lightning was as powerful as Sidious', and Obi-Wan still got owned in the end, and he has just too much flashy moves imho.

I'm not really sure why you quoted my post and then respond with what you did, considering that I specifically mentioned that that was without factoring anything other than swordsmanship, so whether or not he could deflect force lightning isn't relevant. And I'm pretty sure it was referring to RotS, which the novelization makes it pretty clear that Obi-Wan had improved immensely since he had last fought Dooku in AotC. Even in RotS, Dooku only takes Obi-Wan out using force techniques.

As for having too many flashy moves, yes, I would tend to agree with you, though I got the feeling during his fight with Anakin at the end of RotS that that was mainly due to him just countering Anakin's flashy moves.

Socar wrote:

Mr. Oragahn wrote:

Socar wrote:I recall reading something somewhere that seemed to imply that if you took every other factor (force ability, strength, stamina, etc) out of the equation, and focused on swordsmanship alone, Obi-wan Kenobi was the greatest swordsman the Jedi order ever produced. I can't remember where...

Obi-Wan did deflect Dooku's lightning effortlessly, but I'm not sure his lightning was as powerful as Sidious', and Obi-Wan still got owned in the end, and he has just too much flashy moves imho.

I'm not really sure why you quoted my post and then respond with what you did, considering that I specifically mentioned that that was without factoring anything other than swordsmanship, so whether or not he could deflect force lightning isn't relevant. And I'm pretty sure it was referring to RotS, which the novelization makes it pretty clear that Obi-Wan had improved immensely since he had last fought Dooku in AotC. Even in RotS, Dooku only takes Obi-Wan out using force techniques.

As for having too many flashy moves, yes, I would tend to agree with you, though I got the feeling during his fight with Anakin at the end of RotS that that was mainly due to him just countering Anakin's flashy moves.

He still has them even in ANH. I mean, he makes this 360 against Vader... WTF?

Mr. Oragahn wrote:He still has them even in ANH. I mean, he makes this 360 against Vader... WTF?

That's just crazy old Obi-Wan! Pay no attention to him. I don't really know, maybe he just seriously overestimated his own abilities at that point... or he was just trying to confuse Vader. :)