Starfleet Jedi

I've always been somewhat dismayed at the strange clunky-tech that the Replublic/Empire has, and I've never been able to understand that despite their many years of existence, they aren't vaping most moons with their capital ships.

But then it occured to me, that the Republic had about 25,000 years of peace with no known outside threat. During this time, they seemed to drop the idea of having a military, and chose the Jedi Council as their keepers of the peace. It also occured to me that the Clones in Episode II had recieved all this instant equipment, and I somehow doubt that one planet was able to come up with it all, or the Republic managed to build it in that short of time. But rather I suspect that these ships aren't state of the art techology just developed...they were brought back into service when the Galactic Republic was formed. The Republic has had the same military technology with little advancement because most of the races are fairly docile, and there is no outside threat, save from the occasional pirate gang, which wouldn't require full blown warships, at best patrol ships to ward them off, or per say, fighters on planets. Following this idea, each planet would be in charge of its own defenses, sending out fighters to deal with pirates and other low-level scum bags of the galaxy, while planet to planet issues would be solved in the Senate.

It's true that the CIS did have its own army, but their enemies would have been pirate shops and fighters, which their ships could easily defend against. This explains their rather stupid idea of placing the shield generator of their ship in the hanger bay; they weren't designed for large scale battles, and such a tactic is a bit strange to say the least.

Thus, when the Clone Wars were upon them, the Senate just took out all the older model starships and launched them, as well as start building new models that might incorperate newer technologies.

After the Clone Wars, I imagine the Republic Navy had taken a great deal of losses and run up a great deal of credits in repelling the CIS menace. The Emperor, now in control as the the ruler of the Republic/Empire, decided that they'd go with quantity over quality. The Clone War armor was retired for cheaper Storm Trooper armor which would be more geared towards occupying space rather than waging a full scale war. Adding in a heating device and a oxygen tank to the suit would allow Storm Troopers to work in the vaccum of space, and their armor would also attempt to reduce the damage taken from enemy fire, but since primitive weapons such as arrows and rocks were not considered as something that a Storm Trooper would face on a daily (if at all) basis, and in such a case, the area could be swarmed or attacked from orbit. Furthermore, the Emperor needed vast legions to hold the Galaxy, because although he had control of the Senate, being a Sith Lord he's also likely to see treachery at every turn. Rather than building more clones, which would take years of cloning and make it rather hard to explain, he focused on recruiting more mundane soldiers. With the popularity of the Clones from the Clone Wars, Palpatine would have been able to appeal to the masses, targeting weaker minded individuals who would be less bright than a Clone trooper, but almost as loyal. While training, these men would be taught to obey orders and carry them out, with that being the main focus of their training, all else being secondary. Despite the sever decrease in competency in the Imperial Navy, the legend of the Clone Troopers was taken with the Storm Troopers, who closely resembled the Clones in their own armor. The highest form of training given was perhaps fighter pilots, who were required to learn a greater skill in using their TIE fighters in fleet engagements.

Those who were intelligent, but loyal were pushed into the officer ranks of the Navy, held under control by fear and greed. The more succesful officers were often those blindly loyal to the Emperor, even if they weren't per say evil themselves. Such were quickly risen to higher status, but kept under a close eye should they ever come to their senses.

The Imperial Navy fleet itself was also pushed under the quantity over quality rule. The Emperor wanted many ships to hold his vast empire, but building more ship yards would raise questions as to what the Emperor was doing, not to mention that a great deal of resources were being focused into the Death Star, which took up a great deal of resources itself. Thus, the Emperor focused on cheap, but sturdy starships. Rather than having modern interfacing and facilities, Star Destroyers were designed to appear almost more primitive, but only so that the Navy could reduce the cost of the mass undertaking of holding an entire galaxy under their fist. The next to suffer budget cuts were land forces, replacing the former units with the Walker and the AT-AT. The AT-AT was meant to be intimidating and scary, but used cheap methods of fussion and thick, but cheaper armor. Their output wasn't as nearly high as their counterparts from the Old Republic, but their defensive strength allowed them to withstand greater attacks, and most planets wouldn't have the resources to field weapons that could take it down.

The greatest budget cut was perhaps in the fighter deparment. The older style ships were all retired and then torn apart to use for the cheaper TIE fighters. The ships would rely on solar panals for 38% of their power, while obatining the rest form a mini-fission reactor. To make matters worse, the ship was given no shields to defend itself, deemed as a waste of space. In order to compensate for this weakness, the engineers wanted to give it stronger engines for greater mobility, but the Emperor refused the idea, and instead instructed them to use cheaper and lighter materials for figter armor, which allowed the TIE to use smaller and cheaper engines, and thus maintain manuverbility, but also meant that the fighters had a jaw of glass. To make matters worse, the firepower on cannons were reduced by 25%, since the TIEs would be working in large numbers, and thus such high strength shots were considered a waste of power.

This done, the Imperial Navy continued building the Death Star, but suffered several issues with the growing Rebel Alliance, and building issues (expanses, slaves, and such). As such, Palpatine had to increase taxes on many worlds to help pay for it all, which also forced many engineers and merchants to go with the more clunky designs in order to save on expanses for building or repairing ships.

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This excludes all non-G Canon info, and is mainly for filling in the idea of how the Star Wars military power came to be in the later half of the series, and why the major decrease in military standards. In short; the Imperial Navy is mass produced crap (compared to former tech), and although it may even be more powerful than older models, it explains teh change in ship designs and outlooks.

This is very much the way I've viewed the Empire since I first started thinking about Trek versus Wars. After the Clone Wars, they never faced a real, organized threat, at least not one with a fleet. Naturally, their ships are going to be designed for police action more than serious fleet engagements. The EU has really pumped up the Star Destroyer, but a strict analysis of the class as presented in the films makes it look more like a mobile command and carrier vessel than a destroyer. Just look at well the Rebel fleet fared against them at Endor.

Really, no matter what you think about the technology (and as someone without the engineering or physics background of many others in the debate, I usually just have to throw up my hands when such matters are discussed) it's clear that the Empire, as compared to the Federation, is stagnant and would not be well prepared for a protracted war with a major external opponent.

There is no shortage of evidence, however, that the Federation would be prepared for such a thing. The unknown is what they do.

CrippledVulture wrote:The EU has really pumped up the Star Destroyer

I disagree. The bulk of the EU has portrayed the classic Imperial Star Destroyer as a not particularly powerful warship considering its size. Most of the EU places a ~1200m MCC as roughly equal to an ISD in ship-to-ship combat, for example, even though it has less than half the displacement.

In most of the novels, the Imperial Star Destroyer is indeed an impressive ship - but not remarkably so compared to even mid-sized vessels. Why would the four 700m assault frigates make Pallaeon want to flee in Heir to the Empire if they weren't near parity with a single (much larger) 1600m Star Destroyer?

I don't think the EU on the whole has really pumped up the Star Destroyer. One or two sources, perhaps.

I seem to have placed my foot in my mouth a tad there. What I meant was that pro-Wars debaters, particularly those who like to pick and choose from the EU, tend to pump it up.

CrippledVulture wrote:This is very much the way I've viewed the Empire since I first started thinking about Trek versus Wars. After the Clone Wars, they never faced a real, organized threat, at least not one with a fleet. Naturally, their ships are going to be designed for police action more than serious fleet engagements. The EU has really pumped up the Star Destroyer, but a strict analysis of the class as presented in the films makes it look more like a mobile command and carrier vessel than a destroyer. Just look at well the Rebel fleet fared against them at Endor.

Really, no matter what you think about the technology (and as someone without the engineering or physics background of many others in the debate, I usually just have to throw up my hands when such matters are discussed) it's clear that the Empire, as compared to the Federation, is stagnant and would not be well prepared for a protracted war with a major external opponent.

There is no shortage of evidence, however, that the Federation would be prepared for such a thing. The unknown is what they do.

Indeed, it also helps that most of the galaxy was rather docile, which may be why the rebels were so hard to capture, the Imperials were so used to dealing with people who don't like the idea of fighting. Hell, most of the planets were really against making an army and using force to keep the Republic together.

As for EU, it's mainly the pro-wars debators that pump up the ISD, or anything they can get their hands on. Most amusing when their ships show pitiful firepower its "variable yields", despite there being little reference to that, but when Star Trek does it, it's pitiful, even though we've been firmly told their weapons have variable yields, and they don't seem to care for overkill.

Ah well.

Eh, I'm sorry, but I have a hard time swallowing this concept.

First of all, at least according to the EU, wars seem to almost be an almost ludicrously common occurance.

The CIS fleet didn't just pop out of nowhere as well, and their ships were rather heavily armed. Their battle droids didn't pop out of nowhere either. And if this is just a response to pirates, well then, pirates seem rather heavily armed as well then, by extension.

The Rebellion certainly had to get their weapons from somewhere, too.


And I just don't like the idea of "bad guys" who aren't necessarily bad. Goes against the whole nature and theme of Star Wars that GL was aiming at. Another reason why I hate the EU, since they tend to indulge in this at times.

It's funny I should notice this thread now. I'm reading this novel right now, called Cloak of Deception, and it deals with the Trade Federation before the prequel trilogy. And indeed pirates are the reason the TF has its warships. Basically, the TF has exclusive rights to conduct trade in the outer-rim territories, and this of course attracts a lot of pirates. So, they got permission from the Republic to arm their vessels, quad-turbolasers, shields, etc. That in turn caused the pirates to upgrade their equipment, which in turn merited heavier armarment on the TF vessels, and so it goes, on and on and on.

ILikeDeathNote wrote:Eh, I'm sorry, but I have a hard time swallowing this concept.

First of all, at least according to the EU, wars seem to almost be an almost ludicrously common occurrence.

The CIS fleet didn't just pop out of nowhere as well, and their ships were rather heavily armed. Their battle droids didn't pop out of nowhere either. And if this is just a response to pirates, well then, pirates seem rather heavily armed as well then, by extension.

The Rebellion certainly had to get their weapons from somewhere, too.


And I just don't like the idea of "bad guys" who aren't necessarily bad. Goes against the whole nature and theme of Star Wars that GL was aiming at. Another reason why I hate the EU, since they tend to indulge in this at times.

The whole EU obsession with maintaining the "wars" in Star Wars is getting a trifle bit stale, especially in the post-Galactic Civil War eras. Of course it really gets annoying because you practically trip over Sith and Dark Jedi everywhere, when there is only a handful of Sith at any one time in the movies as GL envisioned it.

The Trade Federation combat technology as far as their ships and such are concerned seem to be nothing too terribly special. They are no different in technology and capability than what we see some 30 years later by the time of ANH. The TF forces seem to have not changed all that much, just building more of the same, and not really developing any new or more powerful systems.

What's the big bad weapon on the Malevolence? Why it's just a really big ion cannon!

The only big technological achievement in the SW movies is the Death Star, and then the Empire can't come up with another, different super weapon, they just build... well... a bigger version of the previous one. So yes, I would still consider the Star Wars galaxy to be technologically stagnant, even if they are in an arms race for bigger weapons and ships. The tech remains the same. At least in 200 years in Trek there is considerable advancement. For the United Earth, going from plasma and low-yield missile weapons to photonic torpedoes and phase cannons, then to phasers and photon torpedoes, and then quantum torpedoes and pulse phasers. Other special tech like transporters and phase cloaking devices speak of a higher R&D capability than what we see in the SW movies.
-Mike

Mike D wrote:The only big technological achievement in the SW movies is the Death Star, and then the Empire can't come up with another, different super weapon, they just build... well... a bigger version of the previous one. So yes, I would still consider the Star Wars galaxy to be technologically stagnant, even if they are in an arms race for bigger weapons and ships. The tech remains the same. At least in 200 years in Trek there is considerable advancement. For the United Earth, going from plasma and low-yield missile weapons to photonic torpedoes and phase cannons, then to phasers and photon torpedoes, and then quantum torpedoes and pulse phasers. Other special tech like transporters and phase cloaking devices speak of a higher R&D capability than what we see in the SW movies.

Not to mention the Fed Medical Tech:
Medical Tricorders, Dermal Regenerators, bone knitting devices, able to replace loss blood, cerebral controller tech, etc, etc...
All of this is way better then anything SW has to offer.
Even the cybernetic limbs are of better quality (Nog's leg vs Anakin's arm).

Praeothmin wrote:Medical Tricorders.

Trek sensors in general are considerably better than their SW counterparts. Even in the 22nd century, the relatively primitive NX-01's sensors were able to read alien DNA from several kilometers away.
-Mike

And Kira and Bashir's Runabout in "The Quickening" was able to alert them to Jem'Hadar fighters in another solar system, whilst the Millenium Falcon in TESB was headed right for the Executor, and no-one on board knew until Leia verbally and visually pointed her out.

Yes, and the primitive NX-01 of the 22nd century had contact sensors, which could detect a 2 meter wide cloaked mine latching onto her hull. On the other hand, the Imperial Star Destroyer Avenger, could not detect the landing (clamping?) of the 30 meter Falcon on it's hull.
-Mike

The excuse for the differences is simple: Technology and money. Lucas was short on both for the original trilogy, while he had both available for the newer trilogy, so he utilized it. That simple.

Airlocke_Jedi_Knight wrote:The excuse for the differences is simple: Technology and money. Lucas was short on both for the original trilogy, while he had both available for the newer trilogy, so he utilized it. That simple.

...and strangely enough the original trilogy is vastly superior.

This reminds me of something I read once, where George Lucas supposedly claimed that the technology level actually degraded during the imperial era. It was I believe a way of explaining why the newer films look so much better than the older ones, I wish I could remember where I read that at.